Source of 65,000 baht monthly income

[simon43]

Just considering all my options well in advance....

 

If one applies for a retirement visa or extension based on 65,000 baht being deposited into one's Thai bank account each and every month, do those funds need to come from a verifiable, overseas pension/investment source?  Or is it simply a requirement that 65,000 baht must be deposited every month from overseas?

 

And if one deposits that amount each month, what is to stop one simply recycling the 65,000 each month, sending the funds out again and repeating ad infinitum?

 

In my case, funds are received into my Bangkok Bank account monthly from Paypal.

[simon43]

In my case, funds are received into my Bangkok Bank account monthly from Paypal.

 

Update:  I note on the Bangkok Bank mobile app that my Paypal transfers from China are listed as 'Interbank transfer via SMART'.  

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Update:  I note on the Bangkok Bank mobile app that my Paypal transfers from China are listed as 'Interbank transfer via SMART'.  

That is a domestic transfer, so must be going via another bank in Thailand. 

[mtls2005]

9 minutes ago, simon43 said:

do those funds need to come from a verifiable, overseas pension/investment source? 

 

Not sure what you're asking as you've chosen your words very carefully. The police order says,

 

 

"Evidence showing income, such as pension or interest received or dividend received"
 

the keyword is "income", the source of which could, but is not limited to the three examples given. It could be other sources (IRA/Roth, annuity, capital gains, rent received, subsidy, lottery/gambling winnings, inheritance, to name just a few), but perhaps not a result of illegal activities.
 

Qualifying foreign transfers need to be certified by your receiving bank, to the satisfaction of the IO you're dealing with.

 

 

13 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Or is it simply a requirement that 65,000 baht must be deposited every month from overseas?

 

 

This is certainly one requirement. Repeat: Qualifying foreign transfers need to be certified by your receiving bank, to the satisfaction of the IO you're dealing with.

 

13 minutes ago, simon43 said:

And if one deposits that amount each month, what is to stop one simply recycling the 65,000 each month, sending the funds out again and repeating ad infinitum?

 

Well, if you have to supply a bank statement or copies of your passbook, then the recycling of funds is sure to draw some scrutiny? Unless you plan to withdraw amounts throughout the month, then somehow get it back to the source, then transfer it again? Suspect this sort of activity will lead to further restrictions.

 

 

[Henryford]

7 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Not sure what you're asking as you've chosen your words very carefully. The police order says,

 

 

"Evidence showing income, such as pension or interest received or dividend received"
 

the keyword is "income", the source of which could, but is not limited to the three examples given. It could be other sources (IRA/Roth, annuity, capital gains, rent received, subsidy, lottery/gambling winnings, inheritance, to name just a few), but perhaps not a result of illegal activities.
 

Qualifying foreign transfers need to be certified by your receiving bank, to the satisfaction of the IO you're dealing with.

 

 

 

This is certainly one requirement. Repeat: Qualifying foreign transfers need to be certified by your receiving bank, to the satisfaction of the IO you're dealing with.

 

 

Well, if you have to supply a bank statement or copies of your passbook, then the recycling of funds is sure to draw some scrutiny? Unless you plan to withdraw amounts throughout the month, then somehow get it back to the source, then transfer it again? Suspect this sort of activity will lead to further restrictions.

  

 

I am not advocating it but you could transfer 65k to a thai bank from overseas. Withdraw it in cash and send back home via say Dee money, then repeat. Nothing in your thai bank to be suspicious about. The 65k cash could just as easily been spent on living expenses.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Henryford

[ubonjoe]

Immigration can always ask for the source of he income.

There is no firm statement in the police order that it has to come from a pension. 

From the police order.

 

 

[simon43]

My question about cycling 65,000 baht was asked out of curiosity.  I receive about 100,000 baht a month from legal activities.

 

Qualifying foreign transfers need to be certified by your receiving bank,

 

What exactly does "need to be certified" mean?  Bangkok Bank has received funds into my savings account for well on 18 years, and they simply update my account balance each month.  Do I need to take some specific action to ensure that my monthly fund credits from overseas 'qualify'?  

[Henryford]

8 minutes ago, simon43 said:

My question about cycling 65,000 baht was asked out of curiosity.  I receive about 100,000 baht a month from legal activities.

 

 

 

 

What exactly does "need to be certified" mean?  Bangkok Bank has received funds into my savings account for well on 18 years, and they simply update my account balance each month.  Do I need to take some specific action to ensure that my monthly fund credits from overseas 'qualify'?  

That is the big unknown question about using (and relying) on the income method. I have a Bangkok bank account and have the magical FTT prefix on my transfers in. But that could easily be missed on any one of my monthly transfers in which blows your visa application.

[mtls2005]

25 minutes ago, simon43 said:

What exactly does "need to be certified" mean?

 

Been covered here ad nauseam.

 

 

[stephenterry]

10 minutes ago, simon43 said:

My question about cycling 65,000 baht was asked out of curiosity.  I receive about 100,000 baht a month from legal activities.

 

 

 

 

What exactly does "need to be certified" mean?  Bangkok Bank has received funds into my savings account for well on 18 years, and they simply update my account balance each month.  Do I need to take some specific action to ensure that my monthly fund credits from overseas 'qualify'?  

Providing your incoming transfers are listed as FTT, you only need to provide a bank letter to that effect, which includes the 12 monthly transactions. However, the letter is in Thai, and I find it easier to use my visa agent to obtain it for me (at no extra cost) - which cuts down any hassle that could arise.

 

BKK bank is the leading Thai bank at ensuring this code, and if you use Transferwise  - who have an agreement with BKK Bank, and a few others, the FTT code is automatic. 

 

As to transferring money back, there will be an exchange rate buying/selling cost, and while the Baht is strong against US and Aus $, and GB £ right now, what's the point? The excess money could be invested in 3 year GSB bonds, which earn a tax-free interest rate, comparable to foreign bank deposits.

 

And in my opinion, while it is hassle free, leaving 800k in a commercial Thai bank deposit account is 'dead' money earning minimum interest, and bereft of the opportunity for compounding growth. 

 

 

[stephenterry]

17 minutes ago, Henryford said:

That is the big unknown question about using (and relying) on the income method. I have a Bangkok bank account and have the magical FTT prefix on my transfers in. But that could easily be missed on any one of my monthly transfers in which blows your visa application.

It is very unlikely a foreign transfer code would be 'missed', for the obvious reason - why should it? However, it is essential that you update your bank book as soon as you receive the transfer, because if you leave it too long, to save space, the bank combines all of the transactions with a combined code. The only solution in that event is to request a printout of all the transactions, which would show each individual incomings and outgoings with the correct FTT code for the foreign incoming transactions.  

[Pravda]

Simon, it's not going to work with paypal, simple as that.

 

Anyway, this is a blessing is disguise.

 

I wanted to deposit my 400,000 for marriage extension, but after the TM30 rules it is much easier for me to just leave the country every 90 days than play the reporting game every time I need to take a dump.

[Morty T]

54 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Update:  I note on the Bangkok Bank mobile app that my Paypal transfers from China are listed as 'Interbank transfer via SMART'.  

A 2 party transaction can get expensive, PayPal already takes 5 baht off a dollar as a security (fee) and then applies their own exchange rate. Passing your money through a second broker via bank transfer is another added fee and currency exchange rate decrease. I use Krungthai, love the bank and the people I deal with, but using their transfer service is sometimes 2x that of Western Union. Anyone that has ever used an ATM and at the very last screen, seen " with conversion or without " can attest to this. 

[Digby Strong]

Depends WHERE you get your O-A Non-res Visa. 

I have previously got mine from the UK. The Thai Embassy in London  need an "income letter" from whichever company is providing the money, dated and signed within 3 months of visa application date. 

That PLUS bank statememts showing the money coming into your UK bank account (certified correct by your bank or a solicitor /notary public,). 

 

I think the general gist to read into this, anywhere you apply, is make sure your evidence of income can be proved to apply to the last 3 months. 

 

[1]

I'm just going to add my question here as this thread has answered many of the questions I had regarding the 65000 a month

 

So just for convenience I've been relying on the stat dec from the embassy in the past. I have my extension coming up next march. So I'm wondering does it need to show 65000 a month or as long as the total is 800,000 or more that has been transferred is that okay? It is also my understanding that in this first year they are going to be lenient. As there is only 10 months until March next year I would not be able to show 12 months of the 65000. 

 

Edit. Actually I just realized I had a deposit in April of almost 300,000 but only a deposit of 45000 in May. It seems to me if they accept dividend income they should understand inconsistency?

 

Cheers 

Edited June 2, 2019 by 1

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, 1 said:

Edit. Actually I just realized I had a deposit in April of almost 300,000 but only a deposit of 45000 in May. It seems to me if they accept dividend income they should understand inconsistency?

Perhaps, in the future, their policies may change to accept inconsistency. However, we have multiple reports to the effect that, currently, there must be at least 65,000 baht transferred each and every calendar month. 

[roger buttmore]

28 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Perhaps, in the future, their policies may change to accept inconsistency. However, we have multiple reports to the effect that, currently, there must be at least 65,000 baht transferred each and every calendar month. 

Yes, and also it must take place within a similar time frame each and every month too, apparently.

 

Imagine if each and every member of this forum potentially affected by the more stringent financial visa and extension rules each began their own specific thread asking and/or requesting confirmation of whether, or not,  their own set of circumstances, or the way in which they interpret the rules, will meet the requirements, or not. JHFC.

[madmen]

29 minutes ago, roger buttmore said:

Yes, and also it must take place within a similar time frame each and every month too, apparently.

Never heard of this. can you supply a link

[billsmart]

The source of the income is unclear. Sometimes the term used is "pension" and sometimes just "income." I don't know if that's a translation problem or not. Also, when the term "pension" is used, it is not clear if that only refers to a state government pension or any other type of pension, like one coming from a private organization (like a school-teachers' association) or a private company.

 

Right now, I'm afraid it will all be up to the interpretation of your local immigration office.

[mtls2005]

6 hours ago, 1 said:

I have my extension coming up next march. So I'm wondering does it need to show 65000 a month

Yes. March 2019- Feb 2020, or maybe April 2019 - March 2020, depending on when in March 2020 you go. 

 

6 hours ago, 1 said:

It is also my understanding that in this first year they are going to be lenient.

Most interpret the "leniency" "directive" issued by what as his name?, as applying to the calendar year 2019, and not some rolling 12 month period which suits your situation.

 

6 hours ago, 1 said:

Actually I just realized I had a deposit in April of almost 300,000 but only a deposit of 45000 in May.

You will probably encounter issues on the lack of a qualifying foreign transfer in May 2019. There is no averaging allowed.

 

6 hours ago, 1 said:

It seems to me if they accept dividend income they should understand inconsistency?

No, not really. The source of the income and how it is earned by you does not affect the requirement for a minimum qualifying foreign transfer. You should simply manage your monthly transfers individually, so have them sent to your home country bank, then initiate one single qualifying monthly transfer.

 

I only recall one IO, in one office mentioning the repetitive, consistent monthly timing of foreign qualifying transfers. Some legitimate retirement payment systems, which some have linked directly to their Thai bank, sometimes pay twice in one month (beginning and end) through some quirk of the calendar/holiday/weekend. Some legitimate government quasi-pension/retirement vehicles pay once a year, once a quarter, every 60 days, etc. It's on us to manage the inflow and transfers so they qualify.

 

Many applicants have said they bring a preponderance of documentation demonstrating the "source" of their qualifying foreign transfers. Whether these are required, asked for or even understood remains a bit unclear. I plan to have this on hand, in the simplest official-looking format possible, which aligns with the bank certification letter and the Credit Advice/Receipts. I understand these documents, but I doubt an IO will as they are in a foreign language, involve foreign concepts and accounting procedures. This is why the affidavit was so simple and straightforward. One single document, official, requiring one simple calculation.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by mtls2005

[JDGRUEN]

6 hours ago, 1 said:

I'm just going to add my question here as this thread has answered many of the questions I had regarding the 65000 a month

 

So just for convenience I've been relying on the stat dec from the embassy in the past. I have my extension coming up next march. So I'm wondering does it need to show 65000 a month or as long as the total is 800,000 or more that has been transferred is that okay? It is also my understanding that in this first year they are going to be lenient. As there is only 10 months until March next year I would not be able to show 12 months of the 65000. 

 

Edit. Actually I just realized I had a deposit in April of almost 300,000 but only a deposit of 45000 in May. It seems to me if they accept dividend income they should understand inconsistency?

 

Cheers 

Income averaging is not allowed. 

[mtls2005]

55 minutes ago, billsmart said:

The source of the income is unclear.

 

No, it isn't.

 

The police order says:

 

"Evidence showing income, such as pension or interest received or dividend received"

 

 

the keyword is "income", the source of which could be, but is not limited to the three examples given. It could be other sources (IRA/Roth, annuity, capital gains, rent received, subsidy, lottery/gambling winnings, inheritance, to name just a few), but perhaps not a result of illegal activities.
 

 

58 minutes ago, billsmart said:

it is not clear if that only refers to a state government pension or any other type of pension, like one coming from a private organization (like a school-teachers' association) or a private company.

 

No. It isn't. Income is income.

 

Very few pensions are guaranteed. In fact, most are not. Maybe they have the imprimatur of a "government"/sovereign backing or are insured by legislation, but public and private pensions can be raided by politicians and investment bankers. 

[Acharn]

23 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Immigration can always ask for the source of he income.

There is no firm statement in the police order that it has to come from a pension. 

From the police order.

 

 

Back when we were still able to use the affidavit from the Embassi, the relevant statement was, "I also affirm that I receive a monthly income of $______ from sources in the United States." (from the .pdf). No need to prove that it is a pension. Of course there may be policy memos and ministerial orders that we are not aware of.  I really don't see how it could be proved anyway, and why would they care if it's a pension fund or an annuity?

Edited June 3, 2019 by Acharn

[leither69]

7 hours ago, 1 said:

I'm just going to add my question here as this thread has answered many of the questions I had regarding the 65000 a month

 

So just for convenience I've been relying on the stat dec from the embassy in the past. I have my extension coming up next march. So I'm wondering does it need to show 65000 a month or as long as the total is 800,000 or more that has been transferred is that okay? It is also my understanding that in this first year they are going to be lenient. As there is only 10 months until March next year I would not be able to show 12 months of the 65000. 

 

Edit. Actually I just realized I had a deposit in April of almost 300,000 but only a deposit of 45000 in May. It seems to me if they accept dividend income they should understand inconsistency?

 

Cheers 

The 800,000 is irrelevant if your choosing the 65,000 monthly income method.  It must be the minimum amount of 65k each month in your account, they won't accept different amounts each month even if at the end of the year the totals are the same.  In relation to only showing 10 months deposits, they have been asked to be lenient but, that remains to be seen, contact your local immigration officer to find out if they will accept it.

Edited June 3, 2019 by leither69

[ubonjoe]

16 minutes ago, Acharn said:

I really don't see how it could be proved anyway, and why would they care if it's a pension fund or an annuity?

That is only an example of different types of income. You have to pay attention to the part that says "income such as".

[soisanuk]

From reports I have seen, if you are doing the income method at Chonburi (Pattaya) Immigration, they will want to see the source of the income -- from a presentation given by a well known visa agent here in Pattaya, they will not accept rental income because it is not totally reliable (i.e., the tenant moves out and there may be period(s) of no income from that source.   It is also my understanding that Chonburi Immigration (Jomtien Soi 5), will want bank letter(s) attesting to existence of the account (same type as used by those with 800k in Thai bank) and to the monthly transfers.

 

Although there has been an announcement that IOs are to show leniency in 2019 because the rules went into effect in January, it is still up to the IO to show it -- I so not know how Chonburi IO is handling that as all reports I've rec'd have been from those that had a full 12 months of income.  However, if your renewal is in 2020, they will want to see a full 12 months of income deposits and it is my understanding they will not accept anything less than 65k in each month - no averaging.  I also saw on FM103 (if I recall correctly) that their interview with a Chonburi Immigration official that the official said that they wanted to see the deposits being made in the same time period each month - 10 day window, as I recall).

 

I will be doing my next extension this month (due in July but will do about 30 days in advance in case of hitches) at Chonburi IO and will be using the income method - in my case, I have more than 65k being deposited in Bangkok Bank (FTT code) along with my Statement of Annuity showing my monthly pension from its source.  I will obtain the bank letter(s) from Bangkok Bank. As additional back up, I plan to have other documents showing direct deposit to my US Bank, pdf file of SMS phone messages from Bangkok Bank showing foreign transfer amount (ACH through NY through March 2019 shows $ amount, fees, and baht deposited - TW since April 2019 shows foreign transfer of baht amount).

[Thailand]

9 minutes ago, soisanuk said:

From reports I have seen, if you are doing the income method at Chonburi (Pattaya) Immigration, they will want to see the source of the income -- from a presentation given by a well known visa agent here in Pattaya, they will not accept rental income because it is not totally reliable (i.e., the tenant moves out and there may be period(s) of no income from that source.   It is also my understanding that Chonburi Immigration (Jomtien Soi 5), will want bank letter(s) attesting to existence of the account (same type as used by those with 800k in Thai bank) and to the monthly transfers.

 

Although there has been an announcement that IOs are to show leniency in 2019 because the rules went into effect in January, it is still up to the IO to show it -- I so not know how Chonburi IO is handling that as all reports I've rec'd have been from those that had a full 12 months of income.  However, if your renewal is in 2020, they will want to see a full 12 months of income deposits and it is my understanding they will not accept anything less than 65k in each month - no averaging.  I also saw on FM103 (if I recall correctly) that their interview with a Chonburi Immigration official that the official said that they wanted to see the deposits being made in the same time period each month - 10 day window, as I recall).

 

I will be doing my next extension this month (due in July but will do about 30 days in advance in case of hitches) at Chonburi IO and will be using the income method - in my case, I have more than 65k being deposited in Bangkok Bank (FTT code) along with my Statement of Annuity showing my monthly pension from its source.  I will obtain the bank letter(s) from Bangkok Bank. As additional back up, I plan to have other documents showing direct deposit to my US Bank, pdf file of SMS phone messages from Bangkok Bank showing foreign transfer amount (ACH through NY through March 2019 shows $ amount, fees, and baht deposited - TW since April 2019 shows foreign transfer of baht amount).

Yet to see any confirmation of any leniency being applied anywhere but more interested in Chiangmai and no sign of leniency there unless I missed it. And as for inconsistency regarding "income" two weeks ago Chiangmai were only accepting "pension" and last week it changed to "income", wonder what this week will bring.

[sfokevin]

28 minutes ago, Thailand said:

And as for inconsistency regarding "income" two weeks ago Chiangmai were only accepting "pension" and last week it changed to "income", wonder what this week will bring.

Do you have a link to the reports you are stating?...

Assist Thai Visa have stated on their Facebook page that CM Immigration is not requiring any proof of funds source - Just that it be shown to have been transferred from abroad...

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by sfokevin

[mtls2005]

42 minutes ago, soisanuk said:

they will not accept rental income because it is not totally reliable (i.e., the tenant moves out and there may be period(s) of no income from that source. 

 

Suspect this applies to rental income generated within Thailand.

 

Rental income generated in another country, preferably one's home country qualifies as "income". Again, income is income. "Reliability" of income hardly matters, we're only given a temporary 12-month stay, not permanent residence or citizenship.

 

42 minutes ago, soisanuk said:

It is also my understanding that Chonburi Immigration (Jomtien Soi 5), will want bank letter(s) attesting to existence of the account (same type as used by those with 800k in Thai bank) and to the monthly transfers.

Yes, this is well documented in 2019. Certified bank letter documenting qualifying foreign transfers, along with Credit Advice/Receipts. Account ownership certification letter may be required. SAme-day activity may be required.

 

42 minutes ago, soisanuk said:

my Statement of Annuity showing my monthly pension from its source

Good to have but probably not required, nor would I volunteer it. Too many potential issues. Will not be understood.

 

42 minutes ago, soisanuk said:

As additional back up, I plan to have other documents showing direct deposit to my US Bank, pdf file of SMS phone messages from Bangkok Bank showing foreign transfer amount (ACH through NY through March 2019 shows $ amount, fees, and baht deposited - TW since April 2019 shows foreign transfer of baht amount).

Fine for back up, or if it makes you feel more confident but again I wouldn't volunteer this, nor do I think it will be asked for or if so, understood. SMS messages from Bangkok BAnk detailing foreign qualifying transfers hardly seem necessary, assuming you have the BBL summary letter.

 

Leniency, with fewer than 12 qualifying foreign transfers in 2019 allowable beginning in January 2019 through the month of renewal, seems to be the norm, at least for Div. 1/CW. There have been some reports from other offices of a distinct lack of leniency, requiring qualifying foreign transfers dating back into 2018, but those seem sporadic?

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by mtls2005

[wgdanson]

On 6/2/2019 at 8:36 AM, Henryford said:

I am not advocating it but you could transfer 65k to a thai bank from overseas. Withdraw it in cash and send back home via say Dee money, then repeat. Nothing in your thai bank to be suspicious about. The 65k cash could just as easily been spent on living expenses.

But then what do you live on?

Edited June 3, 2019 by wgdanson