Retiring to Europe (Portugal)

[Mike Teavee]

We already have some great threads on retiring to alternate destinations in Asia (Vietnam, Cambodia, Philippines seem favourite) & @Jingthinghas an excellent thread on moving to Latin America (only 1 I'm aware of that covers LATAM) but for us European's (& in particular Brits) I thought it might be useful to kick-off a thread about retiring to Europe.

 

My current favourite destination in Europe is Portugal (Tax/Residency friendly) but would love to hear thoughts on there or other European destinations...

 

Please Note this thread isn't about whether Thailand/Asia is better than Europe or LATAM or anywhere else, just intended to be a discussion on retiring in Europe for guys considering it, if you're not we're all happy to contribute to other threads on retiring elsewhere... Thanks for your understanding... 

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Mike Teavee
Sp

[simon43]

Mike, happy to contribute to this thread.  I recently considered moving to Laos or Cambodia, but finally decided that if I have to make a move (which I do!), then it will be back to Europe.  I'm planning to relocate back to the tiny country of Andorra, between France and Spain, where I briefly lived in the 1990's.

 

As mentioned in my thread running in the Pub sub-forum, Andorra is not just for the 'rich'.  It welcomes those with a modest income/savings as well.  I've done a spreadsheet of my monthly costs to rent an apartment, pay utility bills, eat food, pay for private health care etc and the total is only about $1,000 USD per month!

[Mike Teavee]

11 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Mike, happy to contribute to this thread.  I recently considered moving to Laos or Cambodia, but finally decided that if I have to make a move (which I do!), then it will be back to Europe.  I'm planning to relocate back to the tiny country of Andorra, between France and Spain, where I briefly lived in the 1990's.

 

As mentioned in my thread running in the Pub sub-forum, Andorra is not just for the 'rich'.  It welcomes those with a modest income/savings as well.  I've done a spreadsheet of my monthly costs to rent an apartment, pay utility bills, eat food, pay for private health care etc and the total is only about $1,000 USD per month!

Thanks for the post...

 

I once spent 2.5 days in Andorra (fractured my right elbow 1st day snowboarding & couldn't fly back for 2 days)... so would really appreciate it if you could share a link to your thread, I for 1 would love to read more...

 

Despite the stupid injury (caused by me being "Goofy" (Lefty) & making a mistake with the bindings), I really loved the place.

 

Very pleasantly surprised (Shocked) that you can live there on $1K USD pm, obviously I was there on a short winter sport trip & it would have been very expensive (IIRC £500 for 5 days my mates mum got us a deal, I actually got almost £700 back from his insurance) so have never looked at the cost of living there   

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Mike Teavee

[simon43]

A 1 bed apartment is about 400 euro per month.   

 

There are no visa financial requirements if you intend to be an 'active' resident (ie live there for most of the time).

 

If you just want the residence permit, but will spend little time in the country, then it's about 50,000 euro investment.

 

Most active residents are either working (in most cases, they need to form a local company for about 3,000 euro - no requirement to employ locals).  Or they are retired.

 

In my case, being a professional teacher, and now teaching online, I can register locally as a professional and continue my online teaching without having to form a local company.

 

The country provides free Catalan language lessons for new foreign residents!  I already speak French, so can get by in the meantime.

 

A reasonable used car is say 5,000 euros.

 

The cost of food/drink etc really depends on your lifestyle.  If you enjoy restaurants, beer etc, then it can be pricey.  But basic foodstuffs are cheap!  I examined what I usually eat most days in Thailand (fruit, salad, nuts etc) and these are all at a similar price in Andorra.

 

All active residents have to pay into the local medical/pension system until they are 65 years old.  It's a little pricey at a fixed 418 euros per month.  But you pay only 50% for the first year, with subsequent further discounts, and you get your pension contributions back as a lump sum when you're 65, if you have contributed for less than 5 years.  after 65 years, you can use your own private medical cover.

 

Since I'll be about 61 years old and have a good expat policy in force right now, my plan is to continue that alongside the local compulsory policy until I'm happy that I will stay in Andorra long-term.  If so, I can then drop my expat policy.  The local policy also provides for free treatment in France, Spain and Portugal.

 

As for leisure activities, Andorra is really for lovers of nature, skiing etc, and those are the types of activities that I enjoy.

 

Relocating will be a logistical nightmare, since I'm teaching online most days.  I need to find a door-to-door shipping agent to send about 10 boxes of teaching materials to Andorra.

Edited June 7, 2019 by simon43

[seasia]

Hi Mike

 

There is a European alternatives thread but it is somewhat buried.

I started it, mostly because I am having thoughts of heading to Europe and also because on JT s excellent LATAM thread, a few posters  gave European options, interesting but JT wanted the thread to be about LATAM.

Colombia  sounds very interesting and viable.

 

Fair enough as he is the topic starter.

 

Portugal is certainly a popular choice amongst Brits, as well as Spain and France.

 

Next Sunday I head to Italy for a 4 month break from Thailand, longest ever stay away from Thailand in the last 10 years.

 

I will perhaps try to revive my thread with thoughts.

 

Some excellent replies on there, very pleasantly surprised at the high quality of responses.

 

Portugal gets a fair few mentions.

 

 

 

If you have not read it, could be of interest to you

[7by7]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 12:09 PM, Mike Teavee said:

<snip>

for us European's (& in particular Brits) I thought it might be useful to kick-off a thread about retiring to Europe.

 Just a reminder that at the moment British citizens enjoy all the benefits of the Freedom of Movement directive and so can retire to any other EU member plus EEA members and Switzerland without any restriction or visa requirements whatsoever.

 

Whilst those currently living there will be almost certainly be able to continue to do so once (if?) Brexit finally happens, British citizens wishing to retire to one of these countries post Brexit will probably need to meet the same visa requirements as citizens of all other Non EU members. Especially if we leave without a deal.

 

In addition, those British pensioners currently living there in the event of no deal may very well lose some rights they currently enjoy under EU reciprocal arrangements; such as free health care.

[stevenl]

I have heard Rumania may be a good option.

Planning myself to stay in Thailand, so only hearsay.

[darren1971]

Me and the wife are considering Spain as I already own a small house there, with the £/B heading towards 27 within the next 3 years it could even work out cheaper.

[simon43]

Although I very much want to return to live in Andorra, there is one 'fly in the ointment'.  My online teaching starts each weekday at 8.00 am Beijing time, which equates to 2.00 am in Andorra.......  

 

As far as Brexit is concerned, I'm fortunate in that I can automatically get Irish (EU) citizenship - my grandfather and father were Irish.  I haven't formally applied because the easiest route is to use an agent to collate all the required documents (birth/marriage/death certificates etc), and to walk my application through.  The total admin cost is about $1,000.  I'll go down that route if needed.

[thequietman]

On 6/7/2019 at 6:44 PM, simon43 said:

Relocating will be a logistical nightmare, since I'm teaching online most days.  I need to find a door-to-door shipping agent to send about 10 boxes of teaching materials to Andorra.

pay a local copy shop to scan all your books. Surprisingly cheap to do here in Thailand.

[thequietman]

30 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Although I very much want to return to live in Andorra, there is one 'fly in the ointment'.  My online teaching starts each weekday at 8.00 am Beijing time, which equates to 2.00 am in Andorra.......  

 

As far as Brexit is concerned, I'm fortunate in that I can automatically get Irish (EU) citizenship - my grandfather and father were Irish.  I haven't formally applied because the easiest route is to use an agent to collate all the required documents (birth/marriage/death certificates etc), and to walk my application through.  The total admin cost is about $1,000.  I'll go down that route if needed.

I would be using that money to visit Ireland and get my own passport. All you need is your original birth certificate to get a passport. Your fathers ancestry should be on there. Good luck in what you decide. ????

[AGareth2]

11 hours ago, stevenl said:

I have heard Rumania may be a good option.

Planning myself to stay in Thailand, so only hearsay.

and Bulgaria

[Mike Teavee]

15 hours ago, seasia said:

Hi Mike

 

There is a European alternatives thread but it is somewhat buried.

I started it, mostly because I am having thoughts of heading to Europe and also because on JT s excellent LATAM thread, a few posters  gave European options, interesting but JT wanted the thread to be about LATAM.

Colombia  sounds very interesting and viable.

 

Fair enough as he is the topic starter.

 

Portugal is certainly a popular choice amongst Brits, as well as Spain and France.

 

Next Sunday I head to Italy for a 4 month break from Thailand, longest ever stay away from Thailand in the last 10 years.

 

I will perhaps try to revive my thread with thoughts.

 

Some excellent replies on there, very pleasantly surprised at the high quality of responses.

 

Portugal gets a fair few mentions.

 

 

 

If you have not read it, could be of interest to you

Thanks for the update... 

 

Hi Mods: I only started this thread as I couldn't find a similar one, @seasia has highlighted one above, could you please post a link to it and close this one so we don't dilute the conversation.

 

Thanks

 

 

MTV

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

Although I very much want to return to live in Andorra, there is one 'fly in the ointment'.  My online teaching starts each weekday at 8.00 am Beijing time, which equates to 2.00 am in Andorra.......  

 

As far as Brexit is concerned, I'm fortunate in that I can automatically get Irish (EU) citizenship - my grandfather and father were Irish.  I haven't formally applied because the easiest route is to use an agent to collate all the required documents (birth/marriage/death certificates etc), and to walk my application through.  The total admin cost is about $1,000.  I'll go down that route if needed.

The American bank I work for has it's main EMEA headquarters in Belfast and every one of the guys I work with on a day-2-day basis has gotten an Republic of Ireland passport to go along with their UK one.

 

To sum up their word... "I'm feeked if I'm going to have to stand in a queue with foreigners every time I want to travel"

 

 

 

[KittenKong]

14 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Whilst those currently living there will be almost certainly be able to continue to do so once (if?) Brexit finally happens, British citizens wishing to retire to one of these countries post Brexit will probably need to meet the same visa requirements as citizens of all other Non EU members. Especially if we leave without a deal.

I expect that the countries that receive significant numbers of retirees from the UK will go out of their way to make it easy for UK retirees (new and old) to continue to live there. I dont expect there to be any difficult conditions to satisfy, and quite likely no conditions at all.

 

So as far as EU destinations go my money is currently on Portugal as it has areas where one neither needs much heating in winter or much air-con in summer, decent health-care, and decent food and wine at sensible prices.

 

Andorra would be nice for part of the year but out of the question in winter.

[Destiny1990]

Malta ,Canary Islands and Spain have my high interest.

Not aware about Andorra will look into that one.

In Asia would be Phillipines or Vietnam.

[BritManToo]

8 hours ago, KittenKong said:

So as far as EU destinations go my money is currently on Portugal as it has areas where one neither needs much heating in winter or much air-con in summer, decent health-care, and decent food and wine at sensible prices.

Give me an axe, a chainsaw and a wood burning stove and most of my heating is free in the EU.

I've had a wood burner since I was 30 at all my houses in the UK.

[guzzi850m2]

43 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Give me an axe, a chainsaw and a wood burning stove and most of my heating is free in the EU.

I've had a wood burner since I was 30 at all my houses in the UK.

Not very environmental friendly

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, guzzi850m2 said:

Not very environmental friendly

What do you think people should do with fallen trees?

[7by7]

11 hours ago, KittenKong said:

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 1:29 PM, 7by7 said:

Whilst those currently living there will be almost certainly be able to continue to do so once (if?) Brexit finally happens, British citizens wishing to retire to one of these countries post Brexit will probably need to meet the same visa requirements as citizens of all other Non EU members. Especially if we leave without a deal.

I expect that the countries that receive significant numbers of retirees from the UK will go out of their way to make it easy for UK retirees (new and old) to continue to live there. I dont expect there to be any difficult conditions to satisfy, and quite likely no conditions at all.

 

Why would they go out of their way to make it easy for British pensioners post Brexit over other non EU nationalities?

 

It seems you have fallen for the Brexiteer myth that we can ditch all the bits of EU membership we don't like, but keep the bits we do!

 

 

[KittenKong]

32 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Why would they go out of their way to make it easy for British pensioners post Brexit over other non EU nationalities?

They wont make it easier for Brits, they will just ensure that it stays pretty much the same as it is now.

 

Why? Because British retirees bring in billions for these countries every year. Simple economics.

[darren1971]

13 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Why would they go out of their way to make it easy for British pensioners post Brexit over other non EU nationalities?

 

It seems you have fallen for the Brexiteer myth that we can ditch all the bits of EU membership we don't like, but keep the bits we do!

 

 

Why wouldn't they. My family have lived in Spain for 10 years, much of the local economy relies on the British retirees  

 

The joint research by Britain and Spanish statisticians shows there were over twice as many British citizens living in Spain at the time of the EU referendum than there were Spanish citizens resident in Britain.

The special report by the Office for National Statistics and the Instituto Nacional de Estadistica says there were 296,000 British citizens who had been living in Spain for more than 12 months in 2016, while the UK was home to an average of 116,000 Spanish people between 2013 and 2015.

"

Edited June 10, 2019 by theoldgit
Quote removed in respect of Fair use policy, to comply with forum rules.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

They wont make it easier for Brits, they will just ensure that it stays pretty much the same as it is now

The same as it is now? No.

 

Let me explain the situation, it's complicated, so bear with me, please.

 

Currently the UK is a member of the EU and so British citizens are covered by the Freedom of Movement directive. This means British citizens can move to live in any other member state in order to exercise a treaty right as 

• a student;
• a worker, employed or self employed;
• a job seeker for up to 3 months;
• a person of independent means such as a pension.

Of course, the same applies to the nationals of the other 27 who wish to exercise one of these rights in the UK.

 

By leaving the EU the UK and it's citizens will no longer be covered by the directive. So post Brexit whilst it is probable that British citizens will not need a visa for tourism or other short term visits, we will need the appropriate visa to enter one of the 27 remaining members for any other purpose and their nationals will need the appropriate visa to enter the UK for any purpose other than a visit.

 

Of course, like the three EEA member countries which are not also EU members and like Switzerland the UK could agree with the EU to still be covered by the FoM directive post Brexit. But this would be two way; it would not just cover British citizens moving to EU/EEA members and Switzerland, it would cover their nationals coming to the UK. As immigration to the UK from the EU was a major factor in the referendum result, it would be political suicide for any UK government which agreed to this.

 

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

 

Why? Because British retirees bring in billions for these countries every year. Simple economics.

This is certainly true of EU nationals coming to the UK; most of whom are working and paying tax. But most Brits moving to the EU are pensioners.

 

I would be very interested to see the data upon which you have based your claim; as most figures show that ex pat pensioners living in the EU, where they can receive state benefits, tend to take out more than they put in.

 

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, darren1971 said:

Why wouldn't they. My family have lived in Spain for 10 years, much of the local economy relies on the British retirees  

 

"The number of Britons living in Spain over the age of 65 has more than doubled in the past 10 years, according to official statistics.

The joint research by Britain and Spanish statisticians shows there were over twice as many British citizens living in Spain at the time of the EU referendum than there were Spanish citizens resident in Britain.

The special report by the Office for National Statistics and the Instituto Nacional de Estadistica says there were 296,000 British citizens who had been living in Spain for more than 12 months in 2016, while the UK was home to an average of 116,000 Spanish people between 2013 and 2015.

"

 See my post above.

 

The situation pre Brexit and post Brexit will not be the same. Hence the rush by British pensioners to get to Spain and other favoured EU retirement spots before Brexit actually happens so their residency there will be secure! Expat SURGE in Spain, Portugal and France before Brexit as 'the golden age is over'

 

But, despite this rush, even those who have beaten the deadline and whose residency is secure have other worries: Brexit healthcare worries for Brits in Spain.

Quote

British nationals who have retired to EU countries may no longer have their healthcare costs covered by the NHS in the event of a no-deal Brexit and many are considering returning home,

 

BTW, your post contains an obvious quote; very poor netiquette not to link to the source of that quote! Against the forum rules as well, I believe. Suggest you edit it to add a link to the source before a Mod spots it.

[madmen]

On 6/8/2019 at 9:29 PM, stevenl said:

I have heard Rumania may be a good option.

Planning myself to stay in Thailand, so only hearsay.

Most of the East European countries are cheaper than Thailand with beautiful country sides and amazing architecture and the stunners are cheaper to rent  . Im Serbian so eventually will spend summers there and winters here. Cant comment on their retirement visas etc but wouldn't be hard to find out

[Destiny1990]

2 hours ago, KittenKong said:

They wont make it easier for Brits, they will just ensure that it stays pretty much the same as it is now.

 

Why? Because British retirees bring in billions for these countries every year. Simple economics.

Weird your simple economics don’t seem to working here as many foreigner retirees are having problems to continue their stay.

[beautifulthailand99]

On 6/8/2019 at 1:29 PM, 7by7 said:

 Just a reminder that at the moment British citizens enjoy all the benefits of the Freedom of Movement directive and so can retire to any other EU member plus EEA members and Switzerland without any restriction or visa requirements whatsoever.

 

Whilst those currently living there will be almost certainly be able to continue to do so once (if?) Brexit finally happens, British citizens wishing to retire to one of these countries post Brexit will probably need to meet the same visa requirements as citizens of all other Non EU members. Especially if we leave without a deal.

 

In addition, those British pensioners currently living there in the event of no deal may very well lose some rights they currently enjoy under EU reciprocal arrangements; such as free health care.

Yeah thanks Brexitters for that another nail in many coffins of UK/EU co-operation built up over 40 years. Really helpful. 

[beautifulthailand99]

44 minutes ago, madmen said:

Most of the East European countries are cheaper than Thailand with beautiful country sides and amazing architecture and the stunners are cheaper to rent  . Im Serbian so eventually will spend summers there and winters here. Cant comment on their retirement visas etc but wouldn't be hard to find out

The best <deleted> rssss I have ever seen were in Belgrade almost every other girl was a stunna. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by beautifulthailand99

[Destiny1990]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

The same as it is now? No.

 

Let me explain the situation, it's complicated, so bear with me, please.

 

Currently the UK is a member of the EU and so British citizens are covered by the Freedom of Movement directive. This means British citizens can move to live in any other member state in order to exercise a treaty right as 

• a student;
• a worker, employed or self employed;
• a job seeker for up to 3 months;
• a person of independent means such as a pension.

Of course, the same applies to the nationals of the other 27 who wish to exercise one of these rights in the UK.

 

By leaving the EU the UK and it's citizens will no longer be covered by the directive. So post Brexit whilst it is probable that British citizens will not need a visa for tourism or other short term visits, we will need the appropriate visa to enter one of the 27 remaining members for any other purpose and their nationals will need the appropriate visa to enter the UK for any purpose other than a visit.

 

Of course, like the three EEA member countries which are not also EU members and like Switzerland the UK could agree with the EU to still be covered by the FoM directive post Brexit. But this would be two way; it would not just cover British citizens moving to EU/EEA members and Switzerland, it would cover their nationals coming to the UK. As immigration to the UK from the EU was a major factor in the referendum result, it would be political suicide for any UK government which agreed to this.

 

This is certainly true of EU nationals coming to the UK; most of whom are working and paying tax. But most Brits moving to the EU are pensioners.

 

I would be very interested to see the data upon which you have based your claim; as most figures show that ex pat pensioners living in the EU, where they can receive state benefits, tend to take out more than they put in.

 

Many Europeans retirees relocate to Spain for the climate.

What financial benefits would they get from Spain? I can’t think of even one.

These retirees get money pension from their home country.

They don’t take out from Spain only they put money in just like farang retirees do here.

 

[madmen]

42 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

The best <deleted> rssss I have ever seen were in Belgrade almost every other girl was a stunna. 

Yeah mate I know I married one for a while. Have to expect some maintenance issues and hot blood