Earth

[White Christmas13]

Would anybody dare to use a hot water system which has no earth what are the changes

you get electrocuted? I will spend a couple of weeks in my friends place in December

he only has cold water in his house so i don't fancy having a cold shower no matter how

hot it is he is prepared to install a hot water system for the shower but as far as I know

he has no earth in his double story house and the shower I will be using is upstairs

I don't really trust the people who will install the system so what can I do insist on 

connecting an earth wire and where to connect since it will be on the upstairs bathroom

[DILLIGAD]

Would anybody dare to use a hot water system which has no earth what are the changes
you get electrocuted? I will spend a couple of weeks in my friends place in December
he only has cold water in his house so i don't fancy having a cold shower no matter how
hot it is he is prepared to install a hot water system for the shower but as far as I know
he has no earth in his double story house and the shower I will be using is upstairs
I don't really trust the people who will install the system so what can I do insist on 
connecting an earth wire and where to connect since it will be on the upstairs bathroom

Most DIY/Homemart type stores sell a complete kit for the ‘earthing’ of appliances. They have a copper rod in them about a meter long that is installed into the ground and the wire to the appliance. If the person pretending to be an installer doesn’t know this, don’t use him!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[White Christmas13]

Thanks for your information as I mentioned in my post the bathroom is upstairs 

so I guess that would be a problem laying a cable all the way to the upstairs

bathroom

[Crossy]

A few metres of 2.5mm² wire (out of the window) and a 1m rod in the garden shouldn't take more than 1/2 an hour to lash up. Doing the job properly with a hole through the wall near the heater a bit longer.

 

If the house is concrete (or steel framed) with a steel roof structure the roof steel will likely make a decent enough ground (our roof measures better than our actual rod). 

 

The heater will almost certainly have a built-in RCBO (I've not seen a recent one without) and 3-400 Baht will net you a cheap RCBO to put on the feed at the distribution board (belt and braces really).

 

In reality, there are likely millions of ungrounded heaters in Thailand and we only hear of a few deaths per year so modern heaters are pretty safe. Until they are not!

 

Would I use an ungrounded heater? Knowingly no, unknowingly I've probably used several.

 

[dotpoom]

I am going on 20 years living and showering in all parts of this country. I can say with certainty...I have never taken it upon myself to check whether the electrical system of the premises I was in was earthed of not.

  Safe to say...it would be the last thing on my mind.

[how241]

I think many, if not most,  hot water heaters in Thailand do not have a ground wire.  Even if you wanted to hook up the ground wire the building does not have a grounding system in place.  If your on a higher floor ,  what can be done ?  

[peterb17]

It adds to the frisson of life in Thailand - really just don’t think too much.

 

Sadly you are probably more likely to die on the roads on the  way to your friends  house - stick with the cold water ( which in the tropics is never really cold) 

[rwill]

When I go somewhere I always use the test button on the water heater.  If it does not work correctly I turn off the heater.  But of course you do find units without a test/reset button.  So you take your chances.  Also some hotels have them hidden.

 

I was staying at one hotel and it had one of those rain showers coming through the ceiling.  I was using it and I looked up and water was coming out from a light fixture in the ceiling next to it.  I was thankful I had not turned the light on.

[soalbundy]

No

[millymoopoo]

Whilst 9 times out of 10 (or 99 times out of 100) using a hot water heater without an earth is OK, what if it's that 1 time.?

Safety switches require an effective earth, their original name was ELCB (earth leakage circuit breaker) and a copper spike into a dry garden bed is not an effective earth, if you go down that path put it near the well, where the earth is wet, then it should be effective.

Or just put some warm water in a watering can and use that, safer, no electricity used, no need to worry about safety switches and earth circuits.

[Crossy]

13 minutes ago, millymoopoo said:

Safety switches require an effective earth,

 

Actually they don't.

 

The original ELCB (actually a VOELCB) did need a good ground but the modern RCD/RCBO measures the difference between the current in the live and the neutral. If this exceeds the trip current (usually 30mA) the device assumes the difference is going somewhere it shouldn't (through you) and opens the circuit.

 

Note:- Anything you see these days labelled as "ELCB" is certain to actually be an RCD/RCBO.

[Tchooptip]

 Most Thai professional electrician will tell you Thailand is a country where earthing is not necessary!????

[khunPer]

21 hours ago, White Christmas13 said:

Would anybody dare to use a hot water system which has no earth what are the changes

you get electrocuted?

If it's a water heater with ELCB the risk is probably less than something which is just earthed.

 

Newer electrical installation will also have a "residual-current device" in the circuit breaker supplying water heaters and like. If any, even minor, leak then the live-power will instantly be switched off.

 

In my electrically (very) safe Scandinavian home-country there is no demand for earth-wire, but all electrical installation must have a residual-current device (RCD), or residual-current circuit breaker (RCCB) (we call it "HFI-afbryder" and "HPFI-afbryder"), which is considered more safe than earthing.

[Moti24]

21 hours ago, White Christmas13 said:

...... i don't fancy having a cold shower no matter how hot it is he is prepared to install a hot water system for the shower.....

So, you are OK with your friend installing a shower for your 2 week visit!

 

You want to hang-on to friends like that; they are few and far between.

 

All I can say is, "I'm glad I don't know you".

[Crossy]

8 minutes ago, Moti24 said:

You want to hang-on to friends like that; they are few and far between.

 

Of course his "friend" may be trying do do away with him under the guise of "an accident"

 

 

[Pedrogaz]

I bought an old fashioned immersion heater from Homepro. No need to worry about earthing and you can shower in peace.....plus have hot water in every tap.

[Alex2554]

Connect earth wire to the neutral, that's enough. Neutral wire has connection with earth in most of countries, including Thailand.

[Damrongsak]

5 hours ago, vinniekintana said:

I wouldn't trust these contraptions even if they are grounded.

I use them to fill a large bucket with warm water then use the water with a ladle after the heater is off.

I used to fill a washtub with cold water and leave it out in the sun all day, covered by a bus window.  It can get pretty cold in Loei in the winter.

[Max69xl]

6 hours ago, peterb17 said:

It adds to the frisson of life in Thailand - really just don’t think too much.

 

Sadly you are probably more likely to die on the roads on the  way to your friends  house - stick with the cold water ( which in the tropics is never really cold) 

There's not a piece of metal on the heaters,just plastic. You can buy many kitchen appliances which are not fitted with a proper grounded plug. My last Electrolux rice cooker is,but that's an European standard.

[wayned]

23 hours ago, White Christmas13 said:

Thanks for your information as I mentioned in my post the bathroom is upstairs 

so I guess that would be a problem laying a cable all the way to the upstairs

bathroom

Since you will only be there for a couple of weeks, drive a 2.5 meter rod in the front yard or driveway and connect a 25mm² copper cable to it.  Then drag the cable in the front door, up the stairs and hook it to the water heater.  You will have to cut off many strands to get it to fit into the water heater attah point.  When you leave just leave it there, heater and all, and hand your soon to be ex-friend a bill for parts and labor! 

[RideJocky]

Just paint the cold-water pipe silver and tie the ground wire to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Wirejerker]

Connect earth wire to the neutral, that's enough. Neutral wire has connection with earth in most of countries, including Thailand.

The only place where the earth wire can be connected to the neutral is in the CU unit. This is a special connection where the wire from the earth rod is connected to the incoming neutral. Any other connection N to E is dangerous and should not be attempted.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[emptypockets]

23 hours ago, Pedrogaz said:

I bought an old fashioned immersion heater from Homepro. No need to worry about earthing and you can shower in peace.....plus have hot water in every tap.

Make sure the water pipe is earthed - assuming copper or galvo pipes are used for hot water

[emptypockets]

19 hours ago, Max69xl said:

There's not a piece of metal on the heaters,just plastic. You can buy many kitchen appliances which are not fitted with a proper grounded plug. My last Electrolux rice cooker is,but that's an European standard.

The heating element is also plastic?...well I live and learn.

A quiet word of advice - water conducts electricity. If your heating element or the water jacket develops a fault the plastic casing isn't going to save you.

Many appliances are double insulated and are not required to be earthed. And that's pretty well worldwide not a 'European Standard' whatever that means.

[emptypockets]

12 hours ago, RideJocky said:

Just paint the cold-water pipe silver and tie the ground wire to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

The cold water pipe is probably pvc? Yeah that'll work. Look fancy too.

[Crossy]

I've never come across a double-insulated water heater, that doesn't mean they don't exist of course.

 

Also note, that many heaters are of the bare-wire element type (yes even in the west). Reasonably pure water doesn't conduct electricity, so provided the outlet of the (plastic) boiler has a grounded metal section they are perfectly safe.

 

If the label says "this appliance must be earthed" it means it.

 

[emptypockets]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

,I've never come across a double-insulated water heater, that doesn't mean they don't exist of course.

 

Also note, that many heaters are of the bare-wire element type (yes even in the west). Reasonably pure water doesn't conduct electricity, so provided the outlet of the (plastic) boiler has a grounded metal section they are perfectly safe.

 

If the label says "this appliance must be earthed" it means it.

 

Nor have I. Not even sure if a gas heater would be double insulated considering the ignition circuit for the pilot - I have no experience in that area.

Agree pure water will not conduct but pure water simply doesn't exist in most domestic reticulated systems. Many people have died after coming into contact with electricity and water - throw the old style two bar heater in a bath while you're in it and see what happens.

Yes that is an over the top example but paints the picture about water/electricity and people. 

I've had a few good belts playing around with a running leaky water pump. Most electricians have had a shock or three!!

The more I read this forum the more I see that many posters are laymen and quite uninformed/misinformed.

Leave it to the professionals.

How many know the difference between earthing/grounding and equipotential bonding?

Use an RCD/safety switch to power the heater. Earth the heater and, if it is the larger style water heater supplying multiple taps, bond those pipes to the ground connection too. That's a requirement in some standards.

 

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, emptypockets said:

Leave it to the professionals.

 

I agree 100%. Now all you have to do is find one in Thailand.

 

They do exist, but pretty well all the good guys are earning pots doing O&G or mega-projects leaving the poor domestic customer with the handyman who has two screwdrivers (+ and -), industrial scissors, a roll of tape and (if you are lucky) a neon screwdriver.

 

I would really like to close down this forum as unnecessary, sadly it's not going to happen in my lifetime. 

[RocketDog]

On 8/29/2019 at 4:38 PM, Crossy said:

 

Actually they don't.

 

The original ELCB (actually a VOELCB) did need a good ground but the modern RCD/RCBO measures the difference between the current in the live and the neutral. If this exceeds the trip current (usually 30mA) the device assumes the difference is going somewhere it shouldn't (through you) and opens the circuit.

 

Note:- Anything you see these days labelled as "ELCB" is certain to actually be an RCD/RCBO.

Quite right. The breaker works in about 15 msec and the 30 MA threshold is based on studies of what current it takes to start fibrillation of the hearts left ventricle from external surface application, with a safety margin of course. Hence the extra earth ground is often referred to as a 'safety ground'.

 

Naturally its better to have but most Thai showers don't, in keeping with the rather poor wiring practice used for all  buildings.

 

I installed LED  lights to replace the circular fluorescent in two fixtures in my rental house. Unfortunately they found enough leakage current somewhere to glow softly even with the light switch off. Not being willing to repair the wiring myself I simply reattached the ballast and moved on.. Mai pen rai.

 

[emptypockets]

Just now, RocketDog said:

Quite right. The breaker works in about 15 msec and the 30 MA threshold is based on studies of what current it takes to start fibrillation of the hearts left ventricle from external surface application, with a safety margin of course. Hence the extra earth ground is often referred to as a 'safety ground'.

 

Naturally its better to have but most Thai showers don't, in keeping with the rather poor wiring practice used for all  buildings.

 

I installed LED  lights to replace the circular fluorescent in two fixtures in my rental house. Unfortunately they found enough leakage current somewhere to glow softly even with the light switch off. Not being willing to repair the wiring myself I simply reattached the ballast and moved on.. Mai pen rai.

 

I replaced one with an LED, no problem, works well. I put in an extra one and it glows dully but beautifully with the power off. Stuff it, it's staying that way. The wiring in the wife's house is atrocious (messy but OK safety wise) and I'll get around to rewiring it one day. May even put in an MEN link (after a good look around at the LV overheads first) and earthed outlets while I'm at it!

I should get my finger out and redo the shower earth. Looks like a piece of 0.5mm that goes out through the wooden louvres and disappears into the concrete. But it is RCD protected - and I trip it regularly for test.