Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[evadgib]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Oh sure - we are being dragged against our clearly expressed will - but once independent from the UK, the people of Scotland can consider whether they wish to rejoin as an independent country.

Good luck with that but ???????????????????????????? ain't 'being dragged' anywhere. ???????? voted to leave and ???????? (all of it) is doing just that. 'Losers consent' has worn very thin over the years but that is the long and the short of it in a nutshell.

Edited December 14, 2019 by evadgib

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

Good luck with that but you ain't 'being dragged' anywhere. ???????? voted to leave and ???????? (all of it) is doing just that.

Oh it feels like 2014 all over again...

[evadgib]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Oh it feels like 2014 all over again...

...in which case the rest of ???????? has nothing to worry about ????

[Nigel Garvie]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

What's all this 'on your knees'? The tail has been wagging the dog since B-liar gave everyone except the ???????????????????????????? a Parliament 20 years ago & the ???????????????????????????? are getting fed up with it and have finally woken up as seen yesterday.

I'm not quite sure what happened on the 12th has anything particularly to do with English Nationalism, English independence from the UK was not an option. I am totally in favour of England separating from the UK (And thus disbanding the union). I wish you well; kindly take your Etonian leaders and your army of cap doffing, subservience loving,  toff ar#elicking, little Englanders with you.

 

Oh and BTW, don't bother with your sad standard line of it's the EU that controls us, Yawn, Yawn, ........wake up....... its the English rich that took you for a ride. The EU is just watching the sad spectacle of a once great country turning itself into a playground for bigots. 

[bolt]

the SNP continually blame down south, it’s never their own fault. They’ve had how many years with a majority and still blame outsiders, how pathetic and sad.

The don’t want independence, They’re quite happy blaming outsiders whilst sitting in the chair.

[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, bolt said:

the SNP continually blame down south, it’s never their own fault.

Can you be more specific? Blame who for what?

 

16 minutes ago, bolt said:

They’ve had how many years with a majority 

You mean you don't know? Majority where? Holyrood? It uses the D'Hondt system of PR specifically designed to prevent any one party getting a majority. Westminster? Certainly they have sent the majority of Scottish MPs to Westminster for the past 5 years or so, but they are insufficient in numbers to be able to affect any real change.

 

20 minutes ago, bolt said:

The don’t want independence,

I suspect that you won't need to wait very long at all before you discover just how wrong you are about that too.

 

19 minutes ago, bolt said:

They’re quite happy blaming outsiders whilst sitting in the chair.

Outsiders? I understand where you are coming from, but that language is unnecessarily provocative, wouldn't you agree? Personally I prefer the term 'neighbours'.

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I'm not quite sure what happened on the 12th has anything particularly to do with English Nationalism, English independence from the UK was not an option. I am totally in favour of England separating from the UK (And thus disbanding the union). I wish you well; kindly take your Etonian leaders and your army of cap doffing, subservience loving,  toff ar#elicking, little Englanders with you.

 

Oh and BTW, don't bother with your sad standard line of it's the EU that controls us, Yawn, Yawn, ........wake up....... its the English rich that took you for a ride. The EU is just watching the sad spectacle of a once great country turning itself into a playground for bigots. 

Thankfully the rest got the gist without treading that same path ????

[elliss]

10 hours ago, JonnyF said:

My opinion is that you would not be in control of your own future if you joined the EU.

 

If you are confident enough to really take control of your own future by going it alone (outside the UK and the EU) then I have huge respect for that and wish you all the best. 

 

But swapping the UK for the EU is a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire. You'd be less independent than you are now.

 

     Take the Oil out of the Scotish economy ,  soon to be,  in the next few years .

       What do they have left , tweed and whiskey , oh and not forgetting Haggis ..

 

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by elliss

[GinBoy2]

I like this thread.

 

At last something that can't be blamed on America! LOL

 

On a serious note however. Back to my earlier post referring to the fact that the entire UK will legally leave on Jan 31st, regardless of ongoing negotiations to determine the future relationship.

 

An independent Scotland would have to re-apply to join. Not withstanding the fact the Scotland would have been a previous member as part of the UK.

I wonder what precedents that would set, and how would a country like Spain with it's own secessionist regions view the idea of making it easy for any region to break away and then have easy access back into 'the club'?  

 

 

[mrmazinkle]

On 12/13/2019 at 12:54 PM, RuamRudy said:

On what evidence to you make this claim?

she's a politician..are you a barrister?

[melvinmelvin]

25 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

I like this thread.

 

At last something that can't be blamed on America! LOL

 

On a serious note however. Back to my earlier post referring to the fact that the entire UK will legally leave on Jan 31st, regardless of ongoing negotiations to determine the future relationship.

 

An independent Scotland would have to re-apply to join. Not withstanding the fact the Scotland would have been a previous member as part of the UK.

I wonder what precedents that would set, and how would a country like Spain with it's own secessionist regions view the idea of making it easy for any region to break away and then have easy access back into 'the club'?  

 

 

 

Scotland would not-reapply, Scotland would apply. Scotland has never applied before.

Scotland has never been a sovereign member of EU.

 

If this scenario with Scotland should happen I expect that you will find a bunch of political elements in

Spain that would not be happy, and also those that would try to block it.

 

(my view is that it would be politically impossible for EU to refuse Scotland membership, if and when

 Scotland meets the requirements. that is what EU is all about, bringing European countries into the fold.)

 

 

 

[bluesofa]

6 minutes ago, mrmazinkle said:

she's a politician..are you a barrister?

If so, can I order a regular Cappuccino please?

[david555]

2 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

If so, can I order a regular Cappuccino please?

you meaning a barrista , that one is specialized in coffee making

[bluesofa]

1 minute ago, david555 said:

5 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

If so, can I order a regular Cappuccino please?

you meaning a barrista , that one is specialized in coffee making

Oh right, my mistake. I'll stick the not guilty plea then.

[LennyW]

10 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Times change, promises turn out to be worthless, people realise that we are at the mercy of the decisions made by the country next door. It is way past time we got off our knees and took a stand for a future that is actually what Scots want, not what England wants.

No

[RuamRudy]

9 hours ago, LennyW said:

No

No what? 

[RuamRudy]

10 hours ago, elliss said:

 

     Take the Oil out of the Scotish economy ,  soon to be,  in the next few years .

       What do they have left , tweed and whiskey , oh and not forgetting Haggis ..

 

 

Exactly - best get rid of us now, before we drag your economy down even further.

[LennyW]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

No what? 

No, It's not what the majority of Scots want - that has already been decided.

[RuamRudy]

30 minutes ago, LennyW said:

No, It's not what the majority of Scots want - that has already been decided.

That is debatable, but in the context of my post, is not relevant.

[englishoak]

11 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Scotland would not-reapply, Scotland would apply. Scotland has never applied before.

Scotland has never been a sovereign member of EU.

 

If this scenario with Scotland should happen I expect that you will find a bunch of political elements in

Spain that would not be happy, and also those that would try to block it.

 

(my view is that it would be politically impossible for EU to refuse Scotland membership, if and when

 Scotland meets the requirements. that is what EU is all about, bringing European countries into the fold.)

 

 

 

 

First id like to reiterate im very much in favour of Scotland leaving the UK and going its own way, as much as im for a united Ireland. 

 

Sturgeon claims it wants and will just immediatley join the EU

 

However in practice its not that simple, first off there is imo a great number of true blue Scots, by that I mean they want TRUE INDEPENDENCE not just swapping one ruler for another, but for now lets just leave those true Scots aside and deal with what i like to call the plastic ones who just want another boss to replace the old one. Enter the EU

 

There are some major roadblocks towards just hitching itself to the EU as a vassal  

Scotland would not be able to simply apply, there is a number of criteria that must be met to even apply. Not in the least a currency with a  trading record and certain value and defecit limit. 

 

At the moment, most people seem to think that an independent Scotland should either stay in a monetary union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland or introduce its own currency.

 

Very occasionally somebody suggests Scotland should adopt the euro 

It’s therefore perhaps worthwhile to examine briefly whether Scotland would actually be allowed to join. To introduce the euro, a country needs to fulfil the  convergence criteria:

 

Highlights are as follows

 

The inflation should be less than 2.5% (the exact figure varies from year to year — it’s based on the inflation figures of the EU member states). The figure for the UK is currently 2.6%, but there’s no reason to assume this would be the same for Scotland — it could be either higher or lower. I don’t think we can determine this at the moment; it’s possible Scotland will tick this box, but it’s quite likely it won’t.

 

The budget deficit should be less than 3% of GDP. In 2018 Scotland’s notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UK’s total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotland’s figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP. Assuming the UKs Oil went all to Scotlands control ( which it wouldnt anyway but lets assume is did ) it would require exceptionally high oil prices to push the deficit under 3%. This is in the current climate impossible so It’s probably safe to assume Scotland would need a few years to bring the deficit under control. 

 

The debt-to-GDP ratio should be under 60% or falling. The UK’s ratio is 90% and rising, so if Scotland inherits its populations share of the debt, this criterion will be very hard to fulfil. On the other hand, if the rest of the UK decide to keep all assets and liabilities, Scotland will have a ratio of 0%, so it’d pass this test with flying colours.

 

The country should have been a member of ERM-II (the exchange rate mechanism) for two years. This means that the country needs to have had its own currency for at least two years (using the Pound Sterling doesn’t count), and it needs to have been linked loosely to the euro. If we assume that an independent Scotland would continue to use the pound for at least five years after independence day before creating its own currency, the earliest this criterion can be fulfilled is 2026/7

 

To conclude, the main issues are likely to be the national debt (unless the UK decide to keep all of it in order to safeguard their permanent membership of the UN’s Security Council) and the need to have been a member of ERM-II for at least two years.

 

It seems unlikely Scotland would be able to introduce the euro before 2027, even if it became a political priority.

 

Of course, if Scotland decided not to introduce the euro, staying out of ERM-II is all it takes. This is what Sweden and many of the newer EU members are doing at the moment. But then it would still have to have its own currency and England would be most unlikely to allow the Pound Sterling to be used as a stepping stone just for the convenience of a nation leaving the UK and using it full time would be a no go. Plus The Bank of England would not accept or want that market exposure and problems it could potentially bring. in turn this would bring into question Scotland's autonomy without its own real currency.  

 

That the SNP are very popular is not in contest, that dosnt mean however independence is what the majority of Scots want, Sturgeon imo is not interested in Scottish independence, just realigning Scottish dependence to the EU instead of the UK.. the Trial of Alex Salmond starts in Jan .. 14 accusations of sexual misconduct... Sturgeon was his no 2 for years and it is very hard to see her not becoming seriously tarnished by the coming trial, I believe her days are going to become numbered going forwards...

 

Id very much like to see Scotland leaving the United Kingdom but honestly I just dont see it happening for mostly economic and practical reasons. I also believe most Scots arnt economically stupid and outside of true independence ( which is impractical ) will choose the UK over the EU every time they are asked. 

 

Time will tell. 

[vogie]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned before but it is an interesting fact.

About 1,250,000 Scots voted for the SNP in this election, but in the Scottish referendum over 2,000,000 Scots voted to remain within the United Kingdom, does this tell us something.

[ThaiBunny]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

I am not sure if this has been mentioned before but it is an interesting fact.

About 1,250,000 Scots voted for the SNP in this election, but in the Scottish referendum over 2,000,000 Scots voted to remain within the United Kingdom, does this tell us something.

Don't confuse people with facts!!

[RuamRudy]

56 minutes ago, vogie said:

I am not sure if this has been mentioned before but it is an interesting fact.

About 1,250,000 Scots voted for the SNP in this election, but in the Scottish referendum over 2,000,000 Scots voted to remain within the United Kingdom, does this tell us something.

And how many voted for the nasty party? About 1 in 4 want Tories in charge, yet we are forced, yet again, to accept what the country next door wants. 

[JAG]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

I am not sure if this has been mentioned before but it is an interesting fact.

About 1,250,000 Scots voted for the SNP in this election, but in the Scottish referendum over 2,000,000 Scots voted to remain within the United Kingdom, does this tell us something.

It tells us that they must be asked again, and again, and again, until they are so fed up with it that that they say "Oh all right then, have it your own way".

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

And how many voted for the nasty party? About 1 in 4 want Tories in charge, yet we are forced, yet again, to accept what the country next door wants. 

Nobody forced anybody to do anything, there was a democratic referendum, a once in a lifetime referendum and to the best of my knowledge it was not the lifetime of the mayfly.

Edited December 15, 2019 by vogie

[JAG]

36 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

And how many voted for the nasty party? About 1 in 4 want Tories in charge, yet we are forced, yet again, to accept what the country next door wants. 

At present Scotland, together with Wales, Northern Ireland and England is part of the United Kingdom. Just under half of the Scottish electorate voted for the SNP. It was a UK wide election, for a UK wide government. Many more voters (UK wide) voted for "the nasty party" than voted for the SNP. You are not being forced to accept what the country next door wants, you are part of the UK, and the UK, as a whole, made a choice.

 

If Scotland wishes to leave the UK then, in my opinion, fine, but in the meantime don't pretend that you are some kind of hard done by vassal of England, You are not.

 

There have been many occasions when past Labour governments have been elected due to the  number of Labour MPs returned by Scottish constituencies.

Edited December 15, 2019 by JAG

[Nigel Garvie]

49 minutes ago, JAG said:

 

There have been many occasions when past Labour governments have been elected due to the  number of Labour MPs returned by Scottish constituencies.

Simply not true. Blair's victories did not depend on Scottish Labour seats, they were surplus to requirements, even in 2005. I'm not absolutely sure about Harold Wilson, but remember in the 1950s Scotland returned a majority of Tory seats. They certainly say that Scottish votes have never affected the outcome of UK elections since WW2. Surprised that we feel disenfranchised?

[dabhand]

1 hour ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Simply not true. Blair's victories did not depend on Scottish Labour seats, they were surplus to requirements, even in 2005. I'm not absolutely sure about Harold Wilson, but remember in the 1950s Scotland returned a majority of Tory seats. They certainly say that Scottish votes have never affected the outcome of UK elections since WW2. Surprised that we feel disenfranchised?

'Simply not true'?

Interesting that you were 'uncertain' about Harold Wilson.  A simple wiki search would have clearly identified that Wilson would have lost in 1964 without the Labour seats in Scotland. This also applied in February 1974, although not quite an overall win for Labour in that election. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_United_Kingdom_general_election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland#1964

 

'They certainly say that Scottish votes have never affected the outcome of UK elections since WW" Now that is simply not true.

 

 

 

[phutoie2]

"Not going to happen in the next five years of the new parliament. Respect the 2014 referendum."

 

From Michael Gove just now on Sky news. One of those posh Jocks one comes across now and again. 

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, JAG said:

At present Scotland, together with Wales, Northern Ireland and England is part of the United Kingdom. Just under half of the Scottish electorate voted for the SNP. It was a UK wide election, for a UK wide government. Many more voters (UK wide) voted for "the nasty party" than voted for the SNP. You are not being forced to accept what the country next door wants, you are part of the UK, and the UK, as a whole, made a choice.

 

If Scotland wishes to leave the UK then, in my opinion, fine, but in the meantime don't pretend that you are some kind of hard done by vassal of England, You are not.

 

There have been many occasions when past Labour governments have been elected due to the  number of Labour MPs returned by Scottish constituencies.

The simple fact, as made clear by election maps and the Brexit map, is that Scottish and English voters diverge significantly on how they want their government to look. We are not talking about small pockets of discontent, but the entire political outlook is different. How can this be reconciled without significant constitutional change?