New Scooter Advice

[stament]

I am looking to buy a new scooter and at first considered the semi-automatic versions (Wave, Finn, etc) and decided on the Wave 110i.  However, upon reading some other threads about ABS breaking it makes me wonder are the brakes on a semi-automatic like a Wave good enough particularly in wet conditions which does concern me.  

 

Can any experts on here give me the pros and cons on the braking system based on personal experience of driving a Wave vs an Aerox/Click for example and also a model that has ABS (as Aerox only has ABS on the top model)   My initial choice of a Wave now might have to be modified as I'm concerned about road safety.  Currently I won a 125 Click in Chiang Mai and it will be for city driving.

 

I have also read recommendations from members here saying it's good to change the standard tyres for ones with better grip such as the michellin street pilot.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

[jackdd]

Yes, ABS is good because it can save your ass when braking on anything slippy.

It's your call if you consider it important or not, it obviously limits your choice of scooters, only few have ABS.

 

Stock tires are not the best ones, but they are usually OK.

[richard_smith237]

Definitely go with ABS...  

 

Experienced motorcyclists will claim that no ABS is better which is absolute tosh when riding in a city with slippy surfaces and unpredictable traffic. 

 

Someone suddenly pulls out in front of you or cuts you off and you and grab slightly too much front brake with ABS and its no issue whatsoever, do so without ABS and you are on your <deleted>. 

 

 

[stament]

what about normal brakes vs foot brake e.g. on click vs wave?  Is the click rear foot brake more effective?

[jackdd]

I would say it's just a matter of taste. Imho drum brakes always suck, doesn't matter if you apply them by hand of by foot.

Having a rear disc brake would of course be a plus. But the rear brake is not really important, because most braking (80% or so) is done with the front anyway.

Edited September 23, 2020 by jackdd

[richard_smith237]

8 minutes ago, stament said:

what about normal brakes vs foot brake e.g. on click vs wave?  Is the click rear foot brake more effective?

 

Many bikes are different. 

 

Some Automatic bikes have ‘unify system’ (I think they are called) where the the right hand brake handle apples the brakes to both the front and the rear wheels and the left handle to just the front wheel. 

 

IMO this is a good system for new riders, especially when combined with ABS in busy unpredictable traffic. 

 

 

When riding a regular motorcycle around Bangkok I don’t use the rear brake a whole lot. 

 

 

 

Brakes are servo assisted and designed specifically for hand pressure or foot pressure - thus neither hand or foot braking is more effective than the other.  

 

IMO you would be best advised to concentrate on ensuring you have ABS and good tires. 

 

[stament]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Many bikes are different. 

 

Some Automatic bikes have ‘unify system’ (I think they are called) where the the right hand brake handle apples the brakes to both the front and the rear wheels and the left handle to just the front wheel. 

 

IMO this is a good system for new riders, especially when combined with ABS in busy unpredictable traffic. 

 

 

When riding a regular motorcycle around Bangkok I don’t use the rear brake a whole lot. 

 

 

 

Brakes are servo assisted and designed specifically for hand pressure or foot pressure - thus neither hand or foot braking is more effective than the other.  

 

IMO you would be best advised to concentrate on ensuring you have ABS and good tires. 

 

Is he unity system you refer to the same as the combi system on my click I assume?

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, stament said:

Is he unity system you refer to the same as the combi system on my click I assume?

Yes, different manufacturers have different names - ultimately it is used with fully automatic scooters and is combined system where one handle (usually the right) applies the brake to both the front and rear wheels, and the left to just the front wheel.

 

 

[NCC1701A]

1 hour ago, stament said:

I have also read recommendations from members here saying it's good to change the standard tyres for ones with better grip such as the michellin street pilot.

yes. the difference for me on a click was dramatic replacing IRC.

1 hour ago, stament said:

I am looking to buy a new scooter and at first considered the semi-automatic versions (Wave, Finn, etc) and decided on the Wave 110i.

is this just a monetary decision?

Edited September 23, 2020 by NCC1701A

[scubascuba3]

I have the 125i Click which has CBS (combined braking system), right brake is front, left brake is about 30% front 70% back. Brakes work fine for me but you should train yourself to automatically go for the left brake to start with in an emergency stop. My instinct (and many others) is to use the right, which is the back brake on my road bike. If you grab the right brake the front wheel locks and the bike goes down

[stament]

9 minutes ago, NCC1701A said:

yes. the difference for me on a click was dramatic replacing IRC.

is this just a monetary decision?

Not really a monetary decision alone no.  I actually didn't used to like the look of Waves, etc many years ago and purchased an Airblade.  We still have that but also have a Click.  I was looking for a semi-automatic as better with hills than scooters as sometimes I do go up hills although not that often.  

 

Safety is a key for me though and 90% of my driving will be in town so thinking maybe the Aerox ABS.  I don't want a manual clutch motorbike.  A couple of times I've lost grip on my Click with some small sprinklings of dirt/sand on the road when going round a corner.  Thinking the Aerox ABS will be better.  I also don't want anything bigger than an Aerox like a PCX, etc.

 

 

[stament]

10 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

I have the 125i Click which has CBS (combined braking system), right brake is front, left brake is about 30% front 70% back. Brakes work fine for me but you should train yourself to automatically go for the left brake to start with in an emergency stop. My instinct (and many others) is to use the right, which is the back brake on my road bike. If you grab the right brake the front wheel locks and the bike goes down

That's what I have on my current Click.

[Henryford]

Good brakes are the most important aspect of any decision to buy a bike. I had a NMAX, twin discs and ABS great brakes. Now have an Aerox with ABS. A must have for riding in Thailand.

[guzzi850m2]

I personally don't care much about ABS on my scooters but its a must on my big bikes.

 

When we bought a new scooter for my wife last year, I paid a couple of thousand more for a model with ABS front brake because she is not a very skilled rider but more a user type of biker for picking up food and stuff.

 

It's a personal thing if you feel you need it or not and experience/skill.

[Lacessit]

58 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I would say it's just a matter of taste. Imho drum brakes always suck, doesn't matter if you apply them by hand of by foot.

Having a rear disc brake would of course be a plus. But the rear brake is not really important, because most braking (80% or so) is done with the front anyway.

Interesting, I only use my back brake, the front brake is for panic stops. Which I don't have, because I drive within my limitations and am always assessing threats ahead on the road. On a scooter for 9 years in Thailand accident-free.

Can you tell me why most of the braking is done on the front? I know that's what happens in cars, but one has the option on a scooter. Why would it be better to brake on the front?

[Kwasaki]

Wave better than a scoot IMHO brakes are what they are with any bike you get,  the important thing is to to learn how to brake with it in any condition as well as ride it. From what you say as others here your knowledge on riding a bike sounds like your experience, which I'm sorry to say sounds limited.

[johng]

39 minutes ago, stament said:

A couple of times I've lost grip on my Click with some small sprinklings of dirt/sand on the road when going round a corner.

ABS wont help with loosing grip on sand or oil whilst cornering  it can only help to stop the wheel from locking up and sliding whilst braking  ABS allows the wheel to continue rotating in small steps  but if you start sliding in a corner due to sand the ABS has no idea what is happening as the sensor on the disk brake would see the wheel rotating normally.   If you have to brake in a corner use the back brake only.

[johng]

9 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Wave better than a scoot IMHO brakes are what they are with any bike you get,

With the wave you also can use the gears for engine braking while going down  Doi Inthanon.

[jackdd]

29 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Interesting, I only use my back brake, the front brake is for panic stops. Which I don't have, because I drive within my limitations and am always assessing threats ahead on the road. On a scooter for 9 years in Thailand accident-free.

Can you tell me why most of the braking is done on the front? I know that's what happens in cars, but one has the option on a scooter. Why would it be better to brake on the front?

Short answer: Because all weight moves to the front of the bike when you brake (same as in any other vehicle), giving you a lot of traction on the front wheel, but not much traction on the rear wheel.

Here two articles explaining these things in a bit more detail:

https://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-braking-tips/

https://www.ridetek.com.au/motorcycle-braking-techniques/

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Short answer: Because all weight moves to the front of the bike when you brake (same as in any other vehicle), giving you a lot of traction on the front wheel, but not much traction on the rear wheel.

Here two articles explaining these things in a bit more detail:

https://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-braking-tips/

https://www.ridetek.com.au/motorcycle-braking-techniques/

Point taken, thanks. I'm always concerned about going A over T if the front wheel grips too well when I am braking.

I'm assuming because I always brake gently, not as much weight gets transferred.

[Kwasaki]

39 minutes ago, johng said:

With the wave you also can use the gears for engine braking while going down  Doi Inthanon.

Many thanks at last somebody who knows something.

People who rely on ABS brakes should read up on em.  

What they should be doing is how to know how to ride whatever bike they have properly. 

[ThailandRyan]

1 hour ago, johng said:

ABS wont help with loosing grip on sand or oil whilst cornering  it can only help to stop the wheel from locking up and sliding whilst braking  ABS allows the wheel to continue rotating in small steps  but if you start sliding in a corner due to sand the ABS has no idea what is happening as the sensor on the disk brake would see the wheel rotating normally.   If you have to brake in a corner use the back brake only.

TCS is good for what you describe, but you wont find that on the smaller scoots, it is why I went with my XMax, has both ABS and TCS, one of the few bikes that does.

[johng]

28 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I'm always concerned about going A over T if the front wheel grips too well when I am braking.

Done that once on  a  racing bicycle going down a hill ????

I've never done a stoppie and a motorbike  but have felt the rear wheel go very light under hard braking.

 

Here how to do a "Stoppie"  ( )

 

 

[richard_smith237]

58 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Point taken, thanks. I'm always concerned about going A over T if the front wheel grips too well when I am braking.

I'm assuming because I always brake gently, not as much weight gets transferred.

 

I’ve had the rear go ‘squirrelly’ while breaking heavily on Thailands smooth & polished roads, this is where pretty much 100% of the hard braking is done by the front wheel and the rear goes light and even with ABS the rear slides about a little.

 

ABS is especially effective and has probably prevented me dropping the bike on a few occasions. i.e. shoulder check (life saver) and turn back and the car in front is hard on the brakes !!! it's happened a number of times - never close to an accident, but still, I’m glad of ABS when this happens particularly when the road is smooth wet and greasy.

 

Riding within ones limits is all nice and good to say, but when an idiot surprises us we may have to brake hard even when predicting the fluckwittery unfolding before our eyes, using the back brake alone won’t cut it in many situations. 

 

 

 

A lot of Motorcycle tuition videos recommend everyone (not just novices) to go to a quiet area (i.e. a quiet parking lot) and practice ‘hard braking’ so that we know how hard we can actually brake on our machines - this is as useful on a scooter as it is on a BMW S1000RR.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by richard_smith237

[farang51]

37 minutes ago, johng said:

Done that once on  a  racing bicycle going down a hill 

On a bicycle, a shopping bag hanging on the handle and getting caught in the wheel can be quite effective too. ????

[ThailandRyan]

2 minutes ago, farang51 said:

On a bicycle, a shopping bag hanging on the handle and getting caught in the wheel can be quite effective too. ????

Ouch, and I can say I have been there and done that when my shoe lace got caught in the front rim when I kicked my legs forward, just say, the boys were black and blue from a knock on the stem before flying over the top.

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, stament said:

what about normal brakes vs foot brake e.g. on click vs wave?  Is the click rear foot brake more effective?

The tires are small, and the brakes are soggy, but it's dead easy to slip the front tire out from under you in the rain.

After buying a second hand CB300F (5 years old) for under 50k, I'm thinking 'how did I ever manage to not kill myself without the fat tires, firm brakes, and ABS?'

[scubascuba3]

2 hours ago, stament said:

Not really a monetary decision alone no.  I actually didn't used to like the look of Waves, etc many years ago and purchased an Airblade.  We still have that but also have a Click.  I was looking for a semi-automatic as better with hills than scooters as sometimes I do go up hills although not that often.  

 

Safety is a key for me though and 90% of my driving will be in town so thinking maybe the Aerox ABS.  I don't want a manual clutch motorbike.  A couple of times I've lost grip on my Click with some small sprinklings of dirt/sand on the road when going round a corner.  Thinking the Aerox ABS will be better.  I also don't want anything bigger than an Aerox like a PCX, etc.

 

 

I live on Pratumnak which is very hilly and the Honda Click is fine, on any bike you have to be careful of loose sand, slippery drains etc. Waves seem underpowered to me, I'm always accelerating round them at traffic lights

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Point taken, thanks. I'm always concerned about going A over T if the front wheel grips too well when I am braking.

I'm assuming because I always brake gently, not as much weight gets transferred.

I saw 3 kids drop their bike a few weeks ago, sudden braking, grabbed the front brake, bike went down, I agree front brake is best avoided unless not braking quick enough, option 2

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

 

 

Riding within ones limits is all nice and good to say, but when an idiot surprises us we may have to brake hard even when predicting the fluckwittery unfolding before our eyes, using the back brake alone won’t cut it in many situations. 

 

 

 

A lot of Motorcycle tuition videos recommend everyone (not just novices) to go to a quiet area (i.e. a quiet parking lot) and practice ‘hard braking’ so that we know how hard we can actually brake on our machines - this is as useful on a scooter as it is on a BMW S1000RR.

 

 

While I will probably get sneers from the hardened riders, 60km/hr is my limit when I have a clear path with no chance of surprises, and my rear view mirrors get a good workout. 30-40 km/hr when there is a possibility of fluckwittery, as you put it. That's on all suburban and city streets. I also avoid riding at night, take the car instead.

Good suggestion re practicing hard braking, thanks. I have an ideal spot for it.