Question re water pump and tank (reservoir)

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

When you buy a new house you have no idea about the quality of the plumbing or electrics,

One reason why people get houses built. ???? 

[giddyup]

Just now, sometimewoodworker said:

One reason why people get houses built. ???? 

Yes, and you stand there every minute of every day watching a multitude of different workers performing jobs that you aren't qualified to know whether they are good or bad. Get real.

[bankruatsteve]

17 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It is not working as it should because it should be (or have as well) a NVR

I don't have NRV (and you're still transposing "NVR"  ????).  Just a  ball valve to turn on/off the bypass.

Edited November 15, 2020 by bankruatsteve

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, bankruatsteve said:

I don't have NRV (and you're still transposing "NVR"  ????.  Just a  ball valve to turn on/off the bypass.

How can a ball valve turn off the bypass if the water level in the tanks drops, or do you have two ball valves?

[sometimewoodworker]

4 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Yes, and you stand there every minute of every day watching a multitude of different workers performing jobs that you aren't qualified to know whether they are good or bad. Get real.

It’s up to you to educate yourself to reduce the mistakes that are made. I educated myself, employed architects to design, and avoided or corrected the mistakes as the happened.

 

you may choose not to do that 

[bankruatsteve]

8 minutes ago, giddyup said:

How can a ball valve turn off the bypass if the water level in the tanks drops, or do you have two ball valves?

The "bypass" is bypassing the pump for water supply.  On, the mains supply.  Off, the pump supplies.  No change to tank supply - that is "on" all the time.   (well, I have a valve in front of the tank if I want to shut off mains supply).

 

That is why I think that valve is your issue.  When off, the pump should not have access to the bypass.  

Edited November 15, 2020 by bankruatsteve

[giddyup]

Just now, sometimewoodworker said:

It’s up to you to educate yourself to reduce the mistakes that are made. I educated myself, employed architects to design, and avoided or corrected the mistakes as the happened.

 

you may choose not to do that 

Unless you built the house yourself you still relied on the competency of the workers, and as we know, in Thailand that's hit and miss. Did you inspect every glued PVC joint to ensure it was done correctly, made sure the electrical wiring was up to spec, that tiles or roofing was OK etc. What you are suggesting just isn't practical or feasible for most people. If you have a background in the building trade, different story. Anyway, off topic.

[giddyup]

8 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

The "bypass" is bypassing the pump for water supply.  On, the mains supply.  Off, the pump supplies.  No change to tank supply - that is "on" all the time.   (well, I have a valve in front of the tank if I want to shut off mains supply).

 

That is why I think that valve is your issue.  When off, the pump should not have access to the bypass.  

I think what Crossy suggested is the simplest solution, just keep doing what I'm doing now, ie hold up the ball with wire which closes the valve whenever the pump is in use, which is not often, mains water is generally pretty reliable.

Edited November 15, 2020 by giddyup

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

Unless you built the house yourself you still relied on the competency of the workers, and as we know, in Thailand that's hit and miss. Did you inspect every glued PVC joint to ensure it was done correctly, made sure the electrical wiring was up to spec, that tiles or roofing was OK etc. What you are suggesting just isn't practical or feasible for most people. If you have a background in the building trade, different story. Anyway, off topic.

My house uses welded joints for water pipes, more difficult to get one to fail, yes I made sure the wiring was up to spec, the roofing is colorbond installed by the makers and yes I checked it was done correctly and made sure I knew what correctly was, no I have no background in house building. My approach which I explained from the beginning to the building company was trust but check. There was only 1 problem that needed to be fixed before completion and the final payment, it was and the cost deducted from the final payment. When spending a few million baht I will make sure I know as much as possible, so any mistakes in the build are mine.

[bankruatsteve]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

I think what Crossy suggested is the simplest solution, just keep doing what I'm doing now, ie hold up the ball with wire and close the valve whenever the pump is in use, which is not often, mains water is generally pretty reliable.

If you do that and the pump keeps running, that means you do not have NRV up the line somewhere (or defective) and you are pumping out into the mains.

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, bankruatsteve said:

If you do that and the pump keeps running, that means you do not have NRV up the line somewhere (or defective) and you are pumping out into the mains.

As I  have explained earlier, the pump only runs when a tap is turned on when the ball valve is closed.

[bankruatsteve]

8 minutes ago, giddyup said:

As I  have explained earlier, the pump only runs when a tap is turned on when the ball valve is closed.

Yah.  I did say "If".  That probably means that you do have an NRV near the meter and which would have no affect on the bypass.

 

Try this just for fun... Normally, the outside faucets are not part of the bypass (mains only).  If that's your case and you open an outside faucet and your pump comes on, then your bypass valve is defective.

Edited November 15, 2020 by bankruatsteve

[giddyup]

14 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Yah.  I did say "If".  That probably means that you do have an NRV near the meter and which would have no affect on the bypass.

 

Try this just for fun... Normally, the outside faucets are not part of the bypass (mains only).  If that's your case and you open an outside faucet and your pump comes on, then your bypass valve is defective.

All outside faucets activate the pump, always have done, how else are they going to get water if the mains water is off?

[bankruatsteve]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

All outside faucets activate the pump, always have done, how else are they going to get water if the mains water is off?

OK.  Then your outside faucets are in line with house faucets.  Mine aren't.  If I need water on the outside, I turn off valve at the meter and use my submersible pump.  Alternately, I could open the bypass and let my house pump supply.  Anyway... sounds like you have solution for a seldom issue so there you go.  Cheers.

[JAS21]

From what you say it Appears that in the line to the house, from mains supply, there is a NRV, as you would expect, which is just upstream of where your pump tees into that pipe work that MRV is faulty.

 

You will/should also have a NRV in the actual main supply to you property.

 

The faulty NRV could be anywhere.. follow supply pipework to your house and you should find it

[giddyup]

Just now, JAS21 said:

From what you say it Appears that in the line to the house, from mains supply, there is a NRV, as you would expect, which is just upstream of where your pump tees into that pipe work that MRV is faulty.

 

You will/should also have a NRV in the actual main supply to you property.

 

The faulty NRV could be anywhere.. follow supply pipework to your house and you should find it

The pipework is all underground and now covered with cement pavers. Too big a job to trace it now, will stick with just tying up the ball float, that seems to work.

[JAS21]

11 minutes ago, giddyup said:

The pipework is all underground and now covered with cement pavers. Too big a job to trace it now, will stick with just tying up the ball float, that seems to work.

Good idea...NRV might even be under the sink in the kitchen.....

[bunnydrops]

I am going to make a wild guess. My system is similar to yours. You may not have a NRV in your system. Mine did not until I put one on it. That valve that you turn the water off from the main is leaking water back to the main. You can raise and add a NRV on the main side of that valve and maybe replace the valve. My setup has the option to use the pump to back flow back into the main to clean dirt an snails out of the screen filter at the street.

[Dumbastheycome]

3 hours ago, giddyup said:

All I know is that when it's turned off, ie screwed down, it will shut off mains water and also stop mains water replenishing the tank. I need to be sure that it's faulty before I start cutting pvc pipes and installing a new valve, no easy job with the present set up.

If the original system and  NRV (s) are under the concrete leave it where is then maybe lay out a  new above ground replacement following the diagram Crossy  posted above ? In anticipation of  any possible future issues insert couplings either side of any NRV for  cleaning or replacement. I have used  PVC body NRV's which also conveniently function as couplings. Material costs are  minimal .

[Artisi]

7 hours ago, giddyup said:

We own the house, but wouldn't the return valve be above ground level for easy access? If it was buried you'd never find it, and the guy who laid the pavers (ten years ago) was the same guy that installed the pump.

Never underestimate Thai ingenuity, many have tried and failed ????????

[Yellowtail]

I think the valve in the tank with the floating ball that shuts it off is typically called a float-valve, not a ball valve.

 

Assuming the pump is not running when all the taps in the house are closed it is not clear how water could be running into the tank but from the main. 

 

1. How do you know the water running into the tank is not from the main?

 

2. If you release the float and allow water to run into the tank, does your water meter show that water is flowing?

 

It could be that your tank is not filling up quickly enough, or the tank could be leaking. 

[giddyup]

12 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I think the valve in the tank with the floating ball that shuts it off is typically called a float-valve, not a ball valve.

 

Assuming the pump is not running when all the taps in the house are closed it is not clear how water could be running into the tank but from the main. 

 

1. How do you know the water running into the tank is not from the main?

 

2. If you release the float and allow water to run into the tank, does your water meter show that water is flowing?

 

It could be that your tank is not filling up quickly enough, or the tank could be leaking. 

I know it's not mains water flowing into the tank, because one, the tank never fills, and two, there's no water coming out of the taps when the pump is off, and three, the meter doesn't move. Plus, the pump will run when no taps are open as long as the ball valve is open.

Edited November 16, 2020 by giddyup

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, giddyup said:

I know it's not mains water flowing into the tank, because one, the tank never fills, and two, there's no water coming out of the taps when the pump is off, and three, the meter doesn't move. Plus, the pump will run when no taps are open as long as the ball valve is open.

Assuming it’s a new situation and that you do not want to  excavate  to find the failed component and don’t want to redo the pipes on the surface to bypass the problem. The solution is to keep using the string.

 

if it’s a new situation then you have a failed component possibly more than 1 very probably a NRV. If you can’t see it it is buried. The control valve you have shown is not faulty, replacing it with anything will gain you nothing.

 

if you don’t want to continue using the string and want a long term solution then you need to give more information if you want suggestions that will work

there certainly could be a cunning plan involving an external flow and pressure switch, contractors and a minimum maximum float switch that may not need new pipes, or moving the pump location. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[giddyup]

4 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

  The solution is to keep using the string.

 

My previous post "The pipework is all underground and now covered with cement pavers. Too big a job to trace it now, will stick with just tying up the ball float, that seems to work".

[sometimewoodworker]

3 minutes ago, giddyup said:

My previous post "The pipework is all underground and now covered with cement pavers. Too big a job to trace it now, will stick with just tying up the ball float, that seems to work".

I only posted as you just did so as I just said

 

9 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The solution is to keep using the string.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[giddyup]

Just now, sometimewoodworker said:

I only posted as you just did so as I said

 

 

Preaching to the converted.

[Yellowtail]

5 hours ago, giddyup said:

I know it's not mains water flowing into the tank, because one, the tank never fills, and two, there's no water coming out of the taps when the pump is off, and three, the meter doesn't move. Plus, the pump will run when no taps are open as long as the ball valve is open.

 

If the meter is not moving that confirmed it is not coming from the main.

 

That water runs into the underground tank and not to the taps does not mean no water is coming from the main, as less pressure is required to fill an underground tank than to push water out of an above ground tap.