Left out? Israeli vaccine refuseniks fear exclusion as economy reopens

[snoop1130]

Left out? Israeli vaccine refuseniks fear exclusion as economy reopens

By Rami Ayyub and Steven Scheer

 

 

TEL AVIV (Reuters) - Israel has led the world in COVID-19 vaccinations. Now it faces another challenge that other countries will have to grapple with: how to balance public health and the rights of the unvaccinated.

 

Its decisions will affect every walk of life - from schools to work, and culture to worship.

 

Half of Israelis have received their first shot, and the country began reopening its economy this week after a year of lockdowns and remote working.

 

But several activities have been deemed off-limits to the unvaccinated, angering those who cannot get the jab for health reasons, or refuse it as a matter of principle.

 

Some employers already plan to ban unvaccinated workers from the office, which rights groups fear could cost them their jobs. Unions have suggested workarounds, such as COVID-19 tests every 72 hours.

 

"I'm already at peace with the fact that I won't be invited to certain events or allowed into areas of entertainment," said Hila Bar, a business owner who is sceptical of medical science and does not plan to get vaccinated.

 

"So I won't go," she said. "And I won't patronise certain businesses either - not because I don't want to, but they do not want my business."

 

Israel, where the vaccine rollout is fast but not mandatory, is a world leader in inoculations. Other countries are likely to scrutinise its early experience to see how it addresses mostly unanswered questions about balancing individual rights with obligations to public health.

 

"Whoever does not get vaccinated will be left behind," Health Minister Yuli Edelstein warned in recent weeks.

 

Edelstein has made clear that newly introduced perks for the vaccinated - including access to theatres, gyms, and resort areas along the Dead Sea - are incentives to get inoculated.

 

But some advocates and employers are concerned that parliament has not passed any new laws regulating workers' return to offices or offering protections for the unvaccinated, saying it will force employers to devise their own rules.

 

Early discussions around guidelines and legislation point to employers, authorities and courts putting public health concerns before individuals' demands.

 

Intel's Mobileye unit, in Jerusalem, says unvaccinated workers will not be allowed to come to the office as of April 4, but can work from home if their assignment allows.

 

The company estimates around 10% of its 1,500 employees will not get vaccinated. If they must come to the office, they will need to provide a negative PCR test taken within the prior 48 hours.

 

"It is our responsibility to make our offices a safe place – the greater good of our employees and their families trumps any other consideration," Chief Executive Amnon Shashua wrote to employees in an email seen by Reuters.

 

CIVIL RIGHTS

 

A landmark study released on Wednesday showed the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine being used in Israel cut symptomatic cases among Israeli recipients by 94%.

 

But some officials privately estimate that 10% of Israelis over 16 - around 650,000 people - do not intend to get vaccinated.

 

Even asking employees to share their vaccine status could violate medical privacy rights, some advocates say, with potential ramifications for civil liberties that may eventually be challenged in Israeli courts.

 

"The question is how do we reopen the market, the economy, and life, without harming people that cannot or would not get vaccinated," said Sharon Abraham-Weiss, executive director of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI).

 

"It's the vulnerable people, those that are not unionised, or temp (workers) or others who would bear the burden," she said, while calling for legislation.

 

Business leaders have also called for new laws. The health ministry did not comment when asked if legislation offering job protection to the unvaccinated was being drawn up.

 

Some large trade groups have begun drafting policy guidelines for members, including the Manufacturers Association of Israel, which represents 1,800 companies employing almost half a million workers.

 

The group's members are "not chasing people in the street to stick some syringes in their shoulders and force them to vaccinate," though they are doing everything they can to encourage it, the group's president, Ron Tomer, said.

 

But according to a legal opinion commissioned by the group and reviewed by Reuters, members may ask employees if they were vaccinated as a "safety measure" to prevent infecting others rather than as a request for personal medical information.

 

Employers should take reasonable steps to allow unvaccinated staff to work from home or in separate bubbles, but those who cannot do so can be sent on unpaid leave, or, as a last resort, fired, the opinion says.

 

"If you don't want to take the injection, it's OK ... the employee (has a right) to protect his privacy. But on the other side there are rights of the public, the employers, the clients - the people that we give services (to)," the opinion's author, prominent employment attorney Nachum Feinberg, told Reuters.

 

Offering a potential workaround, Israel's largest labour union, Histadrut, suggested that unvaccinated workers who cannot work at home present negative coronavirus tests to their employers every 72 hours.

 

'MATTER OF PUBLIC HEALTH'

 

Israel on Sunday launched a "Green Pass" system granting certain privileges to citizens who have had both doses of the vaccine or have recovered from COVID-19.

 

In one of its first real-life applications, only those carrying a government-validated certificate were allowed to attend a small open-air concert in Tel Aviv this week.

 

And parliament on Wednesday passed a law allowing the health ministry to give municipalities the names of residents who have not had a shot.

 

ACRI has opposed the legislation, arguing it violates privacy rights.

 

The law faculty at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem argued in a position paper that regulating vaccination "is a matter of public health, and not a private medical issue".

 

Existing Israeli laws grant the health ministry the legal authority to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, and even to obligate vaccination in certain cases, the position paper says.

 

"Those who fulfil their obligation to vaccinate should not be asked to bear the cost of others choosing not to," said David Enoch, a professor in the philosophy of law at Hebrew University.

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2021-02-26

 

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[car720]

I just cannot understand these people.  Firstly they will never be able to travel anywhere.  Secondly if they don't want to consider the well-being of the many then they must face the ensuing problems alone.  The only ones that I would have concession for are those who have genuine medical adversities.

[mfd101]

17 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

The law faculty at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem argued in a position paper that regulating vaccination "is a matter of public health, and not a private medical issue".

This is the key point. The pandemic creates public welfare needs that trump individual rights.

 

What follows of course is that the decisions we make, collectively & individually, have consequences. Some people find that hard to understand.

[BobBKK]

" refuse it as a matter of principle"  fine we refuse you the right to travel "as a matter of principle"

[Morch]

Two related items:

 

Health Min. revokes license of anti vax-coercion doctor, party head

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/health-min-revokes-license-of-anti-vaccination-doctor-rapeh-party-head-659919

 

COVID-denying antivaxxer doctor permanently loses medical license

https://www.timesofisrael.com/covid-denying-antivaxxer-doctor-permanently-loses-medical-license/

 

Amazing his license wasn't revoked earlier, given some of the stuff he was involved in. Even more amazing his newly found party will participate in the upcoming elections.

 

New law lets Israeli Health Ministry share personal info of citizens who decline COVID vaccine

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-israel-law-personal-information-privacy/

 

Taking name and shame to the next level....

[robblok]

34 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

" refuse it as a matter of principle"  fine we refuse you the right to travel "as a matter of principle"

Yea if you don't want the vaccine then don't get it but don't expect the same rights as those who have. Its all nice to be have principles and theories. But they want them but are not willing to sacrifice anything for it. 

 

Im fine with people who don't want to vaccinate as long as they accept that not taking a vaccine has consequences. Those are a bit more real as their (mostly imagined) fears.

[welovesundaysatspace]

People who want their right to drink alcohol may be denied the right to drive a car. And people who’re unfortunate enough to be born blind may also be denied the right to drive a car. 
 

The same will happen hear.
 

 

[Emdog]

There should be a means for those who can't take vaccine due to legit health concerns to get a "green pass". Those who won't take it due to "principles": you made your choice, accept consequences

[robblok]

1 hour ago, Emdog said:

There should be a means for those who can't take vaccine due to legit health concerns to get a "green pass". Those who won't take it due to "principles": you made your choice, accept consequences

 

100% agreed if you can't take it because of health reasons (there is always a segment of the population that cant) then yes you should get a green pass. That should happen only when most of the population has been vaccinated otherwise there is still a risk for them to get the virus. 

[BritManToo]

20 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Israeli vaccine refuseniks fear exclusion as economy reopens

Project 'unvaccinated fear' starts.

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Project 'unvaccinated fear' starts.

Project "denialism" continues.

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Project 'unvaccinated fear' starts.

Most people will get vaccinated eventually, and the few anti-vaxxers will have to stay home and watch more Qanon. So not much to fear about. 

[from the home of CC]

6 hours ago, mfd101 said:

This is the key point. The pandemic creates public welfare needs that trump individual rights.

 

What follows of course is that the decisions we make, collectively & individually, have consequences. Some people find that hard to understand.

yes, a lack of understanding to the tune of hundreds of thousands dead, but in this me, me, me world we're stuck in, this issue is about to become common place..

[unblocktheplanet]

At the beginning of nearly ~200 vaccine experiments, I decided I would not get one. I have underlying autoimmune conditions & have had bad reactions to the seasonal flu jab. I've changed my mind, for travel but also for the common good. In fact, I'll take two different ones if they become available.

 

I very much doubt there will be many vaccine refusers in Thailand. If we get to 80%, all of us should be safe(r).

 

Do you use LED lightbulbs? The box says they last for 18 years. But they haven't existed for 18 years so nobody really knows.

 

It's the same for vaccines, nobody has a clue whether they will protect others from infection or what long-term side effects they may harbour.

 

Some scientists (my son, for instance) have kept their kids (my grandchildren) in isolation this entire year. He suspects a Covid infection may plant a time bomb in the human immune system which could surface with disastrous health consequences at any time of life.

 

I'm not a scientist but I posit the same is certainly a possibility for vaccines. However, this is no reason to trample human rights. We each make our own decisions & I support those who refuse.

 

The real human rights violation is those racists aren't vaccinating Palestinians.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by unblocktheplanet
addition

[FritsSikkink]

21 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Project 'unvaccinated fear' starts.

Not fear, just no parties for people who don't care about others.

[stevenl]

On 2/27/2021 at 6:20 AM, robblok said:

Yea if you don't want the vaccine then don't get it but don't expect the same rights as those who have. Its all nice to be have principles and theories. But they want them but are not willing to sacrifice anything for it. 

 

Im fine with people who don't want to vaccinate as long as they accept that not taking a vaccine has consequences. Those are a bit more real as their (mostly imagined) fears.

Agree with your first paragraph, not so much with the second. I am not fine with people who don't want to get vaccinated since their decision affects the whole of a population. I am fine with their decision affecting their own lives, not so much with their decision affecting other's lives.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

Agree with your first paragraph, not so much with the second. I am not fine with people who don't want to get vaccinated since their decision affects the whole of a population. I am fine with their decision affecting their own lives, not so much with their decision affecting other's lives.

I get that but forcing people would be going a bit too far. But I get what your saying. Your  Dutch you know they don't vaccinate in the Bible Belt and its becoming a problem. Especially now that we have more immigrants who carry the diseases that were eradicated in our country back. 

 

Still forcing people to take vaccines is a really strong step. As far as I know by law in the Netherlands its not mandatory. I am not sure if I would want to make it mandatory. Depends a bit on how big the group of refusers is. If its a few procent then let those nuts have their freedom. If its a large enough group to make vaccination not safe enough for those who cant be vaccinated because of medical reasons. Then we have to consider what is more important the rights of those who are at risk but cant be vaccinated or the rights of the anti vaxers.

[rickudon]

Apparently Covid denial is highest among Orthodox jews in Israel, with weddings and other social events going ahead with numerous guests, no masks. They are also distrustful of government. Well, they want to be pariahs, up to them, but i wonder if they will complain of persecution.......

[Morch]

37 minutes ago, rickudon said:

Apparently Covid denial is highest among Orthodox jews in Israel, with weddings and other social events going ahead with numerous guests, no masks. They are also distrustful of government. Well, they want to be pariahs, up to them, but i wonder if they will complain of persecution.......

 

Not so much distrust as disdain. The basically do what they like, or what their religious leaders tell them, while disregarding everything else. Due to their political strength, and political realities, it is unlikely there will be any significant reckoning. The second largest 'problem group' is that of Arab citizens, with similar, if less organized elements. Possibly partially a reaction to the double standards by government, secular youngsters taking to the streets these last few days, partying and so on. Obviously, the government capitalizes on the latter for PR, while ignoring the the other two groups' transgressions.

[chainarong]

I seen it the other day on the news , looks like most air carriers are looking at the same app. In Israel if you don't have the app you don't have access to supermarkets,  shopping centers  fuel , transport , for the most part , most things you need. 

[rickudon]

Morch, I was being diplomatic......

Edited March 1, 2021 by rickudon

[tifino]

I can see the 10% simply don't want to get caught up on the sheeple merry go round of being tagged to submit to the again'n'again'n'again'n'again re-jabs that the 90% are happy to play tag along with... 

 - besides the Israelis have enough daily rituals to fill their lives with!

[max2u]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

Apparently Covid denial is highest among Orthodox jews in Israel, with weddings and other social events going ahead with numerous guests, no masks.

Hasidim wherever found have somewhat greater incidence of anti-vax proclivities than the population at large (as do uber-orthodoxim  of the other Abrahamic faiths, though excepting 'closed' communities, 'tis a minority . . of a minority...

 

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, tifino said:

I can see the 10% simply don't want to get caught up on the sheeple merry go round of being tagged to submit to the again'n'again'n'again'n'again re-jabs that the 90% are happy to play tag along with... 

 - besides the Israelis have enough daily rituals to fill their lives with!

You think that the Hasidim don't qualify as "sheeple". They revere the head rabbi of whatever Hasidic sect they belong to and do as he says. Basically these Hasidic sects are personality cults. The reason that the major Hasidic rabbis wield so much political influence is that they can deliver the vote for whatever politician they designate.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

You think that the Hasidim don't qualify as "sheeple". They revere the head rabbi of whatever Hasidic sect they belong to and do as he says. Basically these Hasidic sects are personality cults. The reason that the major Hasidic rabbis wield so much political influence is that they can deliver the vote for whatever politician they designate.

 

That's pretty much correct. And given that apart from religious/theological differences, there are also petty politics and power plays within their communities, a whole lot of this isn't so much about religious edicts etc., but on scoring points in their own rather obscure struggles. Often, this results in stricter interpretations and rulings on issues. In this case, the value of study and prayer vs. danger to the community. Being seen as more devout is a "win", etc.

 

 

[frantick]

On 2/27/2021 at 2:07 PM, BritManToo said:

Project 'unvaccinated fear' starts.

I'm with you @BritManToo.

 

Waiting for the fear mongers to explain why an unvaccinated person is less safe to the general population's health than a vaccinated person, since they both, as is currently believed, can still carry and transmit the virus.

 

Not anti-vax myself, just waiting for a couple more years of mass human trialing before putting that ... in my body. Guessing I'll be forced to have it for my next flight; whatever...

 

Fear really brings out the hive mind.

Edited March 3, 2021 by onthedarkside
profanity term removed

[placeholder]

On 3/1/2021 at 8:50 PM, frantick said:

I'm with you @BritManToo.

 

Waiting for the fear mongers to explain why an unvaccinated person is less safe to the general population's health than a vaccinated person, since they both, as is currently believed, can still carry and transmit the virus.

 

 

Maybe it's believed by you. But as more and more clinical studies get released, it's clear that the vaccines do reduce the transmission of the virus as well. 

 

Israeli studies find Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine reduces transmission

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-israel-vaccine/israeli-studies-find-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-reduces-transmission-idUSKBN2AJ08D

 

The more data we get, the more it seems vaccinated people aren't spreading the coronavirus

https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccines-reduce-coronavirus-transmission-early-research-2021-2

 

[Patong2021]

On 2/27/2021 at 12:29 AM, Emdog said:

There should be a means for those who can't take vaccine due to legit health concerns to get a "green pass". Those who won't take it due to "principles": you made your choice, accept consequences

 

 

On 2/27/2021 at 2:06 AM, robblok said:

 

100% agreed if you can't take it because of health reasons (there is always a segment of the population that cant) then yes you should get a green pass. That should happen only when most of the population has been vaccinated otherwise there is still a risk for them to get the virus. 

 

You  need not have concerns for the Israel law. I wnt to go read what it  applies to;

1. The sharing of names law is valid only for 60 days or until end of Pandemic in Israel.  I think they call this Sunset  law, where it expires when crisis or need passes.

2. The requirement to show pass only applies to specified activities, where risk of transmission/infection is highest. It lists "access to travel,  culture shows, and other social gatherings including gyms and indoor dining"

 

I think we will see some irony and humor in this. Consider this; In excess of 1 million Israeli Arabs have access to the vaccine. Most will  be vaccinated.  Maybe  a vaccinated Israeli Arab family goes to cinema in Tel Aviv and an unvaccinated Israeli settler family goes to same cinema.  Arab will get in because he has green passport. Settler, gets told to go away.  

[car720]

Suffice to say that in the world today there are morons and there are people like me.