US President Joe Biden Calls For Further Investigation Into Virus Origin

[nemo38]

6 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

 

According to the study, Italy’s first documented COVID-19 patient was on Feb. 21 in a small town near Milan. However, the researchers knew the virus was likely circulating before that, so they analyzed blood samples of people enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 to March 2020.

 

You haven't addressed Covid being found in sewage samples from Spain from March 2019.

 

China has returned to normal life. Do you think they secretly developed a super jab, or did they initially panic and then realise the way to deal with Covid is to ignore it, rather than change your whole society?

[nemo38]

1 minute ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

 

From the article:

 

Spanish virologists have found traces of the novel coronavirus in a sample of Barcelona waste water collected in March 2019, nine months before the COVID-19 disease was identified in China, the University of Barcelona said on Friday. The discovery of virus genome presence so early in Spain, if confirmed, would imply the disease may have appeared much earlier than the scientific community thought.

 

A sample, meaning one out of many...not a very robust sample size. And I suspect it was never confirmed, that's why we've not heard any more about it.

or, you haven't heard any more about it because it goes against the China origin theory.

 

[impulse]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Why is a topic like this special? You got something against footnotes?

 

If you wanna know the difference between a kangaroo and a wallaby, wikipedia is great.

 

If you want balanced info about a conspiracy, wikipedia will send you down so many wallaby holes, depending on whose 50 cent army was the last to do an edit.

 

[Kinnock]

2 minutes ago, nemo38 said:

 

You haven't addressed Covid being found in sewage samples from Spain from March 2019.

 

China has returned to normal life. Do you think they secretly developed a super jab, or did they initially panic and then realise the way to deal with Covid is to ignore it, rather than change your whole society?

No ..... I think it was probably an accidental release from the Wuhan lab and the only conspiracy is the subsequent cover-up.

 

But I agree that the way governments reacted after the virus was given a name has caused 80% of the damage.

 

It's as if nobody ever died before 2019.

[Credo]

The initial blaming of the virus on China and the Wuhan Lab was a major distraction.   Any good, thorough investigation needs to occur AFTER the infections have subsided or are on a downward trend.   

 

Can you imagine a building on fire and the fire crew standing around discussing what caused the fire rather than actually fighting the fire?  That's not what they do.  First they put out the fire, then then investigate the cause.   
 

[Kinnock]

4 minutes ago, Credo said:

The initial blaming of the virus on China and the Wuhan Lab was a major distraction.   Any good, thorough investigation needs to occur AFTER the infections have subsided or are on a downward trend.   

 

Can you imagine a building on fire and the fire crew standing around discussing what caused the fire rather than actually fighting the fire?  That's not what they do.  First they put out the fire, then then investigate the cause.   
 

I think there's more than one person involved?

 

Surely with 7 billion people in the world we can find people to investigate the source and manage the controls at the same time.

 

And both bat eating and batty lab research is ongoing, so the risk of a new pandemic is current.  If we know the source, we can help prevent COVID-21, which will not be waiting patiently for COVID-19 to fade out before entering the fray.

[Pattaya Spotter]

11 minutes ago, Credo said:

The initial blaming of the virus on China and the Wuhan Lab was a major distraction.   Any good, thorough investigation needs to occur AFTER the infections have subsided or are on a downward trend.   

 

Can you imagine a building on fire and the fire crew standing around discussing what caused the fire rather than actually fighting the fire?  That's not what they do.  First they put out the fire, then then investigate the cause.   
 

But a viral outbreak isn't a fire and virologist and epidemiologist aren't fireman (the analogy would be doctors and nurses treating patients in hospitals). The standard operating procedure for a human spreading deadly illness is to send in international experts and scientists to the point of origin to investigate ASAP. And there were many willing and waiting to do so that were (and still are) blocked by the Chinese authorities. (Is the Chinese house still on fire...they've claimed to put it out over a year ago so what's stopping an investigation now?)

 

When Ebola broke out in Africa, did the world wait until it had run its course and all the people there were dead before sending in epidemiologist, virologist, and others to investigate? 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Pattaya Spotter

[Credo]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

But a viral outbreak isn't a fire and virologist and epidemiologist aren't fireman (the analogy would be doctors and nurses treating patients in hospitals). The standard operating procedure for a human spreading deadly illness is to send in international experts and scientists to the point of origin to investigate ASAP. And there were many willing and waiting to do so that were (and still are) blocked by the Chinese authorities. (Is the Chinese house still on fire...they've claimed to put it out over a year ago.)

Actually, they don't.  With a new disease, which this was, no early investigation is going to be particularly fruitful.   Remember, the WHO and an international team already did one investigation.   Did you find that a success?

 

[Pattaya Spotter]

10 minutes ago, Credo said:

Actually, they don't.  With a new disease, which this was, no early investigation is going to be particularly fruitful.   Remember, the WHO and an international team already did one investigation.   Did you find that a success?

 

It wasn't particularly new...it was known early on it was a coronavirus like SARS-1 and MERS; and of course more specific information on the origin and characteristics of the virus would have been helpful. As for the WHO "investigation," it consisted of a 3 hour chaperoned tour of the WIV labs and presentations by scientists chosen by the Chinese authorities. The team wasn't allowed to conduct any independent review of the lab or its records, nor speak with lab scientists except those chosen by the government.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Pattaya Spotter

[Credo]

22 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

It wasn't particularly new...it was known early on it was a coronavirus like SARS-1 and MERS; and of course more specific information on the origin and characteristics of the virus would have been helpful. As for the WHO "investigation," it consisted of a 3 hour chaperoned tour of the WIV labs and presentations by scientists chosen by the Chinese authorities. The team wasn't allowed to conduct any independent review of the lab or its records, nor speak with lab scientists except those chosen by the government.

Well, it was new and the comparisons can only be made in hindsight.   
If the virus occurred naturally, they will eventually connect the dots between vector species and humans.   That will probably be way down the line.   Unless/until the lab is opened for scrutiny, we will never know if the virus came from there.

[NaamGin]

2 hours ago, nemo38 said:

The virus was floating around for months before anyone noticed. It has been found in blood samples and sewage samples.

 

Covid 19 found in Sewage samples from March 2019:

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-science-idUSKBN23X2HQ

 

Covid 19 found in blood sample from Italy in Febuary 2019:

 

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201115/covid_19_circulated_in_italy_earlier_than_thought

 

This China origin story is just politics.

Why would the Chinese release such a mild corona-virus? In Wuhan they had an initial panic but now they are living quite normally. The problem  is the response which is killing our society.

 

 

 

You really need to lookup the definition of "coronavirus"... 

 

"Coronaviruses are a large family of viruses that are known to cause illness ranging from the common cold to more severe diseases such as Severe Acute Respiratory syndrome (SARS) and Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS)."

 

Every year it mutates, thus the need for a new flu vaccination every year according to the medical community... 

 

covid19 is the strain that effected the world beginning in Fall 2019... 

 

You are equating all coronavirus outbreaks to covid19... 

 

As far as your claim that this is a "mild virus", tell that to the millions who have died and the billions whose lives have been negatively impacted... 

[Scott]

I strongly suggest you get back on topic and stay on it.  Needless and off-topic bickering is going to result in suspensions.  

 

[candide]

6 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

People who parrot this statement of the Chinese and various self-interested scientists in the US don't understand the science or choose to ignore it. The evidence of possible laboratory modification of the Sars-Cov2 virus has been found in the virus RNA itself. Its not proven, however, if this modification is from a lab or a natural genetic mutation. Thus the calls for further investigation. 

So there's no evidence. A mutation has been identified, but there's no proof that it has been modified in a lab, which was my point.

[sirineou]

8 hours ago, Kinnock said:

 

Knowing the origin will help focus prevention measures.

 

The world does not need a COVID-21

 

Creating a version of a bat virus in a lab that is designed to infect humans is probably something that needs better controls, and if it turns out to be a lab error, this will help implement better controls.

 

May also be the basis of the world's biggest class action ..... especially as the funding came from a US based institution.

 

 

I am not saying that those who need to know, should  not know.  I am sure they do.

Demonizing a whole race for political gain is another story.

   If anyone is saying that the Chinese have intentionally released the viruses, then that's another story and  it should be an act of war, but no one is saying that, they say It could had been an accidental release.

  Does anyone thing that the Chinese do not want to prevent an accidental release and a public investigation would embarrass them into being more careful?  

As far as the "US funded research" is concerned , is IMO nonsense. 

"A multinational group of 15 scientists working at the Wuhan Institute received $600,000 of US public funds between 2015 and 2020 to investigate whether bat coronaviruses posed a risk to humans, Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told a US Senate hearing this week. "

https://www.ft.com/content/7fef48f1-88a4-48f7-8263-c50384643b7f

 

$600, 000 ,  for an international group of 15 scientists over 5 years amounts to them receiving $8,000 in research assistance per year per scientist from the US.

I would hardly call that the US funding the Chinese institution. And is IMO an embarrassingly low amount .f anything the US should had provided more.  

 

[cmarshall]

If you remember back when we were learning the rules of the road as teenager, we were all surprised at how blame is apportioned in highway accidents.  The guilty party is not necessarily the one who caused the accident, but the last one who could have avoided it.  So, if you don't turn off the road when you see a car coming at you in your lane, the resulting accident is your fault.

 

The same principle applies to the Covid pandemic.  Even if accidental escape from the Wuhan lab were established as fact, the US government would still have 100% of the responsibility for the soon to be 600,000 Americans who have died (actually 900,000,) because the US was not surveilling China for emergent pathogens as S. Korea and Taiwan were doing.  It's even worse than that, because the Obama administration had already setup a CDC office in Beijing with forty-seven staff including epidemiologists for that purpose, but which Trump then gutted in 2017.  

 

What's more if your public health department is doing its job by surveilling China (and Africa) continually, their plan should certainly cover accidental release of pathogens from labs as well as human-animal contact.

[placeholder]

9 hours ago, nemo38 said:

 

Millions of people have died of other Corona-viruses.

The negative impact on billion of people is due to lock-downs and travel restrictions, not due to any virus. We would be in a far healthier position if no one had made a test for this variant.

 

Which coronaviruses would those be that have killed millions of people?

And how do you explain all those health care systems overwhelmed by people suffering from covid-19?

[Jeffr2]

13 hours ago, nemo38 said:

 

Millions of people have died of other Corona-viruses.

The negative impact on billion of people is due to lock-downs and travel restrictions, not due to any virus. We would be in a far healthier position if no one had made a test for this variant.

 

You don't really believe that, do you?  Please say you don't.  Stunning.  Absolutely stunning.

[nemo38]

5 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

You don't really believe that, do you?  Please say you don't.  Stunning.  Absolutely stunning.

 

We have known that Covid is mild since mortality figures for Italy showed 99% of people who died with Covid were already dying from something else. It stands to reason when the average age of covid deaths is no different from the average of old age deaths.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says

 

Obesity and smoking are far more deadly, and deadly to younger people, than covid. 

 

Sweden didn't bother with lockdowns and will have a more happy, wealthy, and healthy society.

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/sweden-covid-and-lockdown-a-look-at-the-data

 

We should have a go on how we want to live and separate. You can stay under surveillance with Vax passports, we can be free. 

 

How many old people want to live a few extra weeks under lockdowns and in a broken country? Even the people who we are supposedly protecting won't choose the new society which which is being constructed.

 

Lockdown fanatics are a vocal few. Lets shake hands and say goodbye.

 

[candide]

It's interesting to observe that the people who are blaming China for not acknowledging the seriousness of the epidemic and also not isolating Wuhan/China early enough, are often the same people who are downplaying the danger of the pandemic and are against lockdown.

 

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, candide said:

It's interesting to observe that the people who are blaming China for not acknowledging the seriousness of the epidemic and also not isolating Wuhan/China early enough, are often the same people who are downplaying the danger of the pandemic and are against lockdown.

 

Great point. Because such people are much more about politicizing the pandemic than rationally dealing with the harsh reality of it. That said, the effectiveness of specific aspects of "lockdowns" (and other mitigation measures) are legitimately debatable and if the world never learns the facts about how this happened, we won't have the tools to prevent repeating the same mistakes.

[Jeffr2]

12 hours ago, nemo38 said:

 

We have known that Covid is mild since mortality figures for Italy showed 99% of people who died with Covid were already dying from something else. It stands to reason when the average age of covid deaths is no different from the average of old age deaths.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says

 

Obesity and smoking are far more deadly, and deadly to younger people, than covid. 

 

Sweden didn't bother with lockdowns and will have a more happy, wealthy, and healthy society.

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/sweden-covid-and-lockdown-a-look-at-the-data

 

We should have a go on how we want to live and separate. You can stay under surveillance with Vax passports, we can be free. 

 

How many old people want to live a few extra weeks under lockdowns and in a broken country? Even the people who we are supposedly protecting won't choose the new society which which is being constructed.

 

Lockdown fanatics are a vocal few. Lets shake hands and say goodbye.

 

The scourge of today.  Covid deniers.

 

Do some better research on Sweden.  You'll find out they failed big time.

[nemo38]

14 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

The scourge of today.  Covid deniers.

 

Do some better research on Sweden.  You'll find out they failed big time.

 

Sweden is still there. People are living normally.

 

If you want people to transition to a new model of society you should make your case and let us vote on whether we want to join you. Very few people will want to give up their privacy, freedom, social life in exchange for allegedly keeping very old and sick people alive for a few more days.

 

Depression and economic fallout is going to kill millions of people. It has already blighted the future of most young people 

 

New society promoters have a lot to answer for.

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, nemo38 said:

 

Sweden is still there. People are living normally.

 

If you want people to transition to a new model of society you should make your case and let us vote on whether we want to join you. Very few people will want to give up their privacy, freedom, social life in exchange for allegedly keeping very old and sick people alive for a few more days.

 

Depression and economic fallout is going to kill millions of people. It has already blighted the future of most young people 

 

New society promoters have a lot to answer for.

You didn't even do any research.  Figures. 

 

You're heartless to make such statements.  Horrible.

[nemo38]

4 hours ago, candide said:

It's interesting to observe that the people who are blaming China for not acknowledging the seriousness of the epidemic and also not isolating Wuhan/China early enough, are often the same people who are downplaying the danger of the pandemic and are against lockdown.

 

 

It is because they are on the right and the fake news, false opposition, media, like Fox, is promoting a war against China.

 

In a sense, China is being offered to republicans to get them back on the voting plantation.

 

They are right that the lockdowns were never justified, and that the virus is mild. But they are upset that China took jobs and production which China was offered with both hands over the last decades.

[Ventenio]

Let me translate

 

Biden:  Find me something on China!!  

[nemo38]

1 minute ago, Jeffr2 said:

You didn't even do any research.  Figures. 

 

You're heartless to make such statements.  Horrible.

 

Emotional blackmail is feminine. 

 

Sweden did it right, with some mistakes in failing to isolate the very old and frail in the beginning. That is all any of us should have considered.

 

People died before 2019. We have to deal with it.

 

Once the economic reality of lock downs, furloughs, and job losses hit, people will be forced into extreme lifestyle austerity. An undercover documentary of CNN senior staff recorded them saying climate change will be the next big scare. Of course that entails extreme austerity (but not for Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos).

 

Hopefully the new society promoters will get a message from those who will suffer.

 

No one promoting this new society should be allowed to retain citizenship. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeffr2]

14 minutes ago, nemo38 said:

 

It is because they are on the right and the fake news, false opposition, media, like Fox, is promoting a war against China.

 

In a sense, China is being offered to republicans to get them back on the voting plantation.

 

They are right that the lockdowns were never justified, and that the virus is mild. But they are upset that China took jobs and production which China was offered with both hands over the last decades.

Lock downs saved China.  That's a proven fact.  And guess what?  They just started a big one this week.  If they didn't work, why would they keep doing this? LOL. 

 

But yes, China is being blamed for all sorts of stuff by the right wing media outlets.  Racism at it's worst.

[Jeffr2]

8 minutes ago, nemo38 said:

 

Emotional blackmail is feminine. 

 

Sweden did it right, with some mistakes in failing to isolate the very old and frail in the beginning. That is all any of us should have considered.

 

People died before 2019. We have to deal with it.

 

Once the economic reality of lock downs, furloughs, and job losses hit, people will be forced into extreme lifestyle austerity. An undercover documentary of CNN senior staff recorded them saying climate change will be the next big scare. Of course that entails extreme austerity (but not for Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos).

 

Hopefully the new society promoters will get a message from those who will suffer.

 

No one promoting this new society should be allowed to retain citizenship.

 

Sweden failed.  They're government admitted it.  And look at them now.  Doing terrible compared to their closest neighbors.  Fail big time.  Sad covid deniers fall for fake news about Sweden. LOL

 

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/sweden?country=SWE~FIN~NOR

[Freeduhdum]

29 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

What's your point?  Most scientists agree this virus came from nature.  Just like SARS, MERS, etc.

You're simply being naive... just like climate change, there is no scientific consensus. In fact "most scientists" don't have a clue, most scientists don't specialize in this field of study. And the ones who do don't all agree on the origin. Many are not at liberty to speak, let alone have a differing opinion. If you step out of line and you suggest that this virus may have escaped from the lab, then good luck getting any funding for your next grant project. 

[Jeffr2]

14 minutes ago, Freeduhdum said:

You're simply being naive... just like climate change, there is no scientific consensus. In fact "most scientists" don't have a clue, most scientists don't specialize in this field of study. And the ones who do don't all agree on the origin. Many are not at liberty to speak, let alone have a differing opinion. If you step out of line and you suggest that this virus may have escaped from the lab, then good luck getting any funding for your next grant project. 

Naive?  Climate change has 100% consensus from CREDIBLE scientists.  100%.  To say scientists don't have a clue is bizarre.  You must not know any true scientists.

 

Stunning some think like this.