Should Pattaya Embrace Segregation?

[Ninafarm]

This is supposed to be about Pattaya. I am a 71 yr old living in Pattaya and I'm waiting to be called up for a shot. I have got a message that I'm approved,, just waiting for an appointment. I agree with both sides of the argument , but I live here in Thailand, and out of respect for the Thais and the Thai laws, I think getting vaccinated is the right thing to do. My Thai wife is already vaccinated, Sinovac and AZ, and hopefully by the end of the year, so will I. 

[jak2002003]

13 hours ago, Fairynuff said:

At least you got that right.

Yes I did. Thank you. Sorry it was impossible for you to validate your claims. 

 

 

[jak2002003]

5 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Indeed! I remember some comment or other that likened those who refuse the vaccine to drink drivers - a good analogy in my opinion.  I don't see the problem, its just a bloody vaccine for christ's sake - had mine months ago, took up all of 2 hours of my time.

 

I defend the rights of the individual to a point but not when their actions can have a devastating effect on others - which is precisely why its against the law to drink and drive. Just get vaccinated.

Honesty that is crazy and anyone that thinks someone not have a vaccine is the same as a drunk driver needs their head testing.

 

Next you will be saying an unvaccinated person is like a mass murderer and should be executed. 

[smedly]

4 hours ago, bobbin said:

1. Health is private matter in law. It is your body and your right alone to deal with health matters that affect your body. The right to abortion for women is an example. Many countries have it written into law that health is a private matter. If you start to move away from that and declare health of an individual is now a public matter then things like smoking

health is a private matter - nobady is forcing you to take a vaccine but as with smoking there are laws/rules in place to protect others, if someone chooses not to be vaxed  they must also accept rules put in place to protect others and the services that everyone uses such as hospitals 

 

for those that think there is no difference in getting a vaccine or not here is a video you should watch were some of the points raised on this thread are addressed Delta Variant: Top 10 COVID Questions and How to Prepare - YouTube

 

you use an example of smoking - smoking has pretty much been banned in public places throughout the world because evidence suggests it is a health risk to others - the same can be applied to refusing to be vaxed - you become a health risk to others 

Edited September 5, 2021 by smedly

[smedly]

On 9/4/2021 at 1:55 PM, Fairynuff said:

Actually it’s not. The fact is that vaccinated people are less likely to pass on the virus and less likely suffer severe illness. 

and as much as 8 times less likely to be infected - yes over 80%

[smedly]

57 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Honesty that is crazy and anyone that thinks someone not have a vaccine is the same as a drunk driver needs their head testing.

actually it's a pretty good argument when it comes to putting others at risk

 

anti vax crew would prefer the argument of not wearing a helmet as a choice but the difference is you only risk yourself, sometimes sensible laws are intoduced to protect people from themselves were they tend to make very poor choices in the face of overwhelming evidence

 

 

[jak2002003]

15 minutes ago, smedly said:

actually it's a pretty good argument when it comes to putting others at risk

 

anti vax crew would prefer the argument of not wearing a helmet as a choice but the difference is you only risk yourself, sometimes sensible laws are intoduced to protect people from themselves were they tend to make very poor choices in the face of overwhelming evidence

 

 

Thank you. You are so right, I have been so stupid. 

 

I have just told my unvaccinated children they are as dangerous to us as drunk drivers and kicked them out to live in the garden. 

 

I want malls, restaurant and public places to ban children now.  I see they are so dangerous to vaccinated people. Also people who have children are not thinking of the greater good of society and being selfish as their kids are a source of virus mutations and will spread covid 19 and kill innocent vaccinated people 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by jak2002003

[LongTimeLurker]

8 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Nor do vaccinated people, Sorry do not get your point. 

Read the whole of the post you are responding to.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by LongTimeLurker
Link not correct

[smedly]

12 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

But an  unvaccinated person is no danger to a vaccinated one...unless you believed the vaccines don't work. 

yes they are - vaccines reduce the risks - all of them but not to zero, there are also people who cannot be vaccinated or want to be vaccinated but are behind.

 

the more unvaccinated people catching and spreading the more risk to the general population, also while this deadly virus is in circulation the higher the risk of more deadly mutations developing - if everyone had been vaccinated during the first wave of this virus we would no longer be dealing with it now - it would have been wiped out and millions of lives saved 

 

I don't like like having to be vaccinated and I also don't think people should be forced to vaccinate but in making that choice you are increasing the risk to others - that is a fact, there is also the issue of using up medical resources if and when you get sick and need life saving treatment which then deny others the use of that resource who need it 

 

Sorry but the argument to not be vaxed is a thin one and that choice definately affects other people 

[jacko45k]

43 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Thank you. You are so right, I have been so stupid. 

 

I have just told my unvaccinated children they are as dangerous to us as drunk drivers and kicked them out to live in the garden. 

 

I want malls, restaurant and public places to ban children now.  I see they are so dangerous to vaccinated people. Also people who have children are not thinking of the greater good of society and being selfish as their kids are a source of virus mutations and will spread covid 19 and kill innocent vaccinated people 

 

 

 

And you started that post so well... should have ended it sooner......

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

Honesty that is crazy and anyone that thinks someone not have a vaccine is the same as a drunk driver needs their head testing.

 

Next you will be saying an unvaccinated person is like a mass murderer and should be executed. 

A drink driver deliberately puts others at risk by driving on roads that everyone uses. The consequences for the rest of us are that people die and are seriously injured because of drink drivers every day.  The consequences for the drunk driver are (in most countries) that if caught they will lose their licence, have to pay a fine and or be imprisoned in ther most serious cases. Its very easy to avoid, just don't drink and drive but the selfish minority seem to think its their right to drive in any state they so wish.

 

People who refuse to be vaccinated put others at risk by increasing the likelihood of infection. The consequences for the general population are a very real risk of serious, potentially long lasting illness or death.  At the moment the consequences for the unvaccinated are an increased risk of infection or death. It is highly likely that those consequences will include varying degrees of segregation which is what we are discussing here.They can very easily avoid that by getting vaccinated but they use ridiculous excuses not to get vaccinated - some even think microchips will be put in their arm!

 

What's the difference between the 2 scenarios above? both involve people being put at risk which is totally avoidable.

 

I would defend the rights of anyone to make their own choice on vaccination but I would defend the rights of others not to be put at risk more stongly.  People who refuse vaccination will have to live with increasingly limited choices. Segregation is going to happen to varying degrees depending on where you live.

 

Relating this to Pattaya as per the OP - given the current government, I would not be surprised if vaccination became compulsory in Thailand in the not too distant future.

 

To state that I would suggest unvaccinated people should be executed is a ridiculous statement. I am simply saying that they will have to accept the limitations their choices create.  Segregation, in greater or lesser degrees is coming - get used to it or get vaccinated.

[KhaoYai]

On 9/4/2021 at 8:32 AM, Tanomazu said:

Many countries have it written into law that health is a private matter. If you start to move away from that and declare health of an individual is now a public matter then things like smoking, eating too many calories, BDSM where people agree to be injured, high risk sports, all these things could and should become illegal

The rights of the individual are very different to the rights of others NOT to have risk imposed on them.  I'm a smoker and I believe I have a right to smoke if I so wish and I accept the potential health consequences  I do not believe however, that I have a right to impose my smoking on others.

 

People may well have a right NOT to be vaccinated but they do NOT have a right to impose risk on others.

 

The only thing that would change my opinion on that is if and when a vaccine is found that offers 100% protection. If that happens - let the anti-vaxxers take their chances but right now they have no right to place others at increased risk.

Edited September 5, 2021 by KhaoYai

[chrissables]

On 9/4/2021 at 12:42 PM, robblok said:

Of course people who are not vaccinated should have less rights to certain events then those who are vaccinated. They do that in most countries because it makes sense. Its just the anti vaxers that hate it as they don't want there to be consequences to not being vaccinated.

So YES segregate but only when people had a chance to get vaccines. In the Netherlands there is a big group that does not want to be vaccinated. Too bad I say but that same group does want to go to sports events and stuff. Now one can say that its their life their risk but they by getting sick (unnecessary) and taking up valuable hospital resources. 

 

Maybe anti vaxers should just pay for their medical treatment and for those they infected. Teaches them that every choice has advantages and disadvantages.

Well if you and your family are vaccinated and the vaccine works, why would you worry about what others do? 

Why not do it the other way, let the people who want to carry on as normal do so.

 

You can lock yourself away and keep thinking you have the right to decide what other do.

[chrissables]

26 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

A drink driver deliberately puts others at risk by driving on roads that everyone uses. The consequences for the rest of us are that people die and are seriously injured because of drink drivers every day.  The consequences for the drunk driver are (in most countries) that if caught they will lose their licence, have to pay a fine and or be imprisoned in ther most serious cases. Its very easy to avoid, just don't drink and drive but the selfish minority seem to think its their right to drive in any state they so wish.

 

People who refuse to be vaccinated put others at risk by increasing the likelihood of infection. The consequences for the general population are a very real risk of serious, potentially long lasting illness or death.  At the moment the consequences for the unvaccinated are an increased risk of infection or death. It is highly likely that those consequences will include varying degrees of segregation which is what we are discussing here.They can very easily avoid that by getting vaccinated but they use ridiculous excuses not to get vaccinated - some even think microchips will be put in their arm!

 

What's the difference between the 2 scenarios above? both involve people being put at risk which is totally avoidable.

 

I would defend the rights of anyone to make their own choice on vaccination but I would defend the rights of others not to be put at risk more stongly.  People who refuse vaccination will have to live with increasingly limited choices. Segregation is going to happen to varying degrees depending on where you live.

 

Relating this to Pattaya as per the OP - given the current government, I would not be surprised if vaccination became compulsory in Thailand in the not too distant future.

 

To state that I would suggest unvaccinated people should be executed is a ridiculous statement. I am simply saying that they will have to accept the limitations their choices create.  Segregation, in greater or lesser degrees is coming - get used to it or get vaccinated.

Quarantine the vaccinated! Especially if they are bleating about segregation. Let everyone else carry on.

[James105]

16 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

The rights of the individual are very different to the rights of others NOT to have risk imposed on them.  I'm a smoker and I believe I have a right to smoke if I so wish and I accept the potential health consequences  I do not believe however, that I have a right to impose my smoking on others.

 

People may well have a right NOT to be vaccinated but they do NOT have a right to impose risk on others.

 

The only thing that would change my opinion on that is if and when a vaccine is found that offers 100% protection. If that happens - let the anti-vaxxers take their chances but right now they have no right to place others at increased risk.

You would be less scared of covid if you stopped smoking and then you wouldn’t need to worry so much about other peoples medical choices that do not have anything to do with you.   

[Fairynuff]

4 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

Yes I did. Thank you. Sorry it was impossible for you to validate your claims. 

 

 

Validation can found if you can be bothered or have the ability. The last word can be yours, I’m done tata.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Fairynuff

[KhaoYai]

43 minutes ago, James105 said:

You would be less scared of covid if you stopped smoking and then you wouldn’t need to worry so much about other peoples medical choices that do not have anything to do with you.   

Sorry, don't understand any of that.  I have no intention of stopping smoking and I don't see how stopping smoking would make me 'less scared of covid'. I do not impose my smoking on others.

 

My concerns about 'other people's medical choices' as you put it have EVERYTHING to do with me if those choices put me at risk.

 

Smoking is a choice - being put at risk by others is not.

[KhaoYai]

49 minutes ago, chrissables said:

Quarantine the vaccinated! Especially if they are bleating about segregation. Let everyone else carry on.

I think the bleating is coming from the other direction.  Fortunately for those of us who are not scared of a little 'scratch' on our arms - segregation to a greater or lesser extent is coming so you'd better get used to it.

[KhaoYai]

56 minutes ago, chrissables said:

Well if you and your family are vaccinated and the vaccine works, why would you worry about what others do? 

Because a vaccine that offers 100% protection against either infection, severe illness or death is yet to be found.  I thought that was quite clear - your arguments have no validity.

[KhaoYai]

59 minutes ago, chrissables said:

Why not do it the other way, let the people who want to carry on as normal do so.

Again your argument has no validity.  People who have the vaccine don't pose any risk to others - the unvaccinated do.

[papa al]

" People who have the vaccine don't pose any risk to others - the unvaccinated do."

Well,

who is less likely to get sick from covid and less likely to spread it?:

1. Unvaccinated person who has had covid and recovered,

or

2. a vaccinated person who never had covid yet?

The answer is (1.)

Edited September 5, 2021 by papa al

[KhaoYai]

1 minute ago, papa al said:

Who is less likely to get sick from covid and less likely to spread it?:

1. Someone who has had covid and recovered,

or

2. a vaccinated person who never had covid yet?

The answer is (1.)

Source?

[Tanomazu]

10 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

So you're talking about individual rights. What about the individual's rights not to be put at risk?  I don't think people should be forced to be vaccinated but I do think those who refuse must suffer the consequences of their decisions. 

 

Segregation in some form is just about inevitable before long.  The argument put forward by some airlines is a good example of why - they are concerned for the welfare of their staff and the very real possibility of being sued by passengers who catch the virus whilst on their flights. I watched a TV programme a couple of months back which explained that provided you know the identity of all those you've been in contact with its fairly easy, through sequencing, to locate exactly who passed an infection on to you.  An airline takes responsibility for your safety the moment you set foot in their aircraft so them being sued is a very real possibility.

 

Another side of the same coin is in relation to employers - many employers in the UK are worried that they could be sued by their employees in the same way as the airlines.  Both groups are also concerned about the effect that allowing unvaccinated people the same freedoms as the vaccinated could have on their business.

 

Most countries are yet to complete their vaccine programmes but I think that as they start to do so, segregation will start to become common place in many walks of life.  Its already very likely that in the near future, unvaccinated people will not be allowed in to UK night clubs.

 

Its also important to note that medical segregation already exists. Take Yellow Fever for example - people from high risk countries are not allowed to enter some countries unless they've been vaccinated.

 

If people don't want to be vaccinated, that's their choice but they shouldn't complain when they find that their other choices become increasingly limited.

There is no individual "right not to be put at risk" in any constitution in the world. None. Life has risks. You will get sick and die.

 

However, in many constitutions it is made clear that health is a private matter. Why do you think no country in the world is forcing everyone to get vaccinated? Many politicians and "experts" would like to do just that. But they can't.

 

What you're talking about is not segregation. Segregation is state-sanctioned Apartheid, put in place by the state, like when the US made it illegal to marry someone of another race. However those days are gone. What you are talking about is just private people or companies doing what they want on their premises. However, even that has limits in law, thus for instance those who provide essential services, like supermarkets, can not close their doors to unvaccinated people, nor would they want to do that. Most business in fact wants no part of these over-restrictive Vaccination Apartheid schemes, they just want to do business.

 

Airlines are not concerned about their staff, they are concerned that if they do not put in place some kind of scheme that pleases the governments then they will not be able to do business at all. That is why they support certain rules, however, they too, in case you hadn't noticed, allow you to fly if you were tested, a vaccine is not a requirement.

 

As for employers generally:

 

"...the vast majority of the UK’s large employers have been happy to sit out the vaccine requirement debate, often reassured by the country’s low levels of vaccine hesitancy.

British employment lawyers had expected a flood of queries from clients over whether they could mandate the vaccine among their workforce – queries which have not arrived. It appears that many firms have ducked the argument and decided not to get involved in what many consider their employees’ personal choice."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/aug/08/employment-rights-offer-uk-immunity-to-mandatory-workplace-covid-jabs

 

So again, sorry to disappoint you, but in civilized countries where employees have protections the Vaccine Apartheid land is not coming. In the US it's different, as employees don't have much protection, and in Thailand too where employees have minimal protection, employers could bully their employees as they do in the US. The question is whether they should, clearly they should not.

 

Your Yellow Fever example is of course completely disingenous, it merely requires anyone who HAS Yellow Fever not to come into the country. Obviously nobody in their right freakin' mind would want someone with Covid to enter a country. The point, rather is that those WITHOUT Covid but not vaccinated have the same rights as those who are vaccinated. So for instance you can show a PCR test to airlines and government officials and get about quite fine.

 

There are millions of unvaccinated, and if they are prevented from entering certain venues, and indeed some extremists want to scrap the reasonable test requirement and only accept cured and vaccinated people, then the unvaccinated will simply avoid those venues. No venue that does that will survive long term due to the economic loss of millions of people. And no venue with intelligent management would not accept a negative test anyway.

[pookondee]

The debate could go on and on, but surely you guys must be wondering if you will all eventually have to get vaccinated to stay in Thailand?

 

Whether you will need to be vaccinated to enter an immigration office,

or they just make vaccination mandatory for all extension of stay and/or all visas.

 

They demand various paperwork every year, 400k in bank,

90day reporting, insurance,

not to mention all the nonsense you have to go through even when married to a Thai.. 

 

They just seem to like making it harder for farangs to stay.

Does anyone really think they will not pin vaccination to the list of requirements?

[Sudarut]

On 9/4/2021 at 1:51 PM, robblok said:

Yes they can spread it but not as much as those who are not vaccinated and also vaccinated have a lower chance to get sick.

 

So if you let unvaccinated people get together in large groups they will infect more and put a larger strain on the health system.

 

That means that many people can't get the care they need and operations need to be postponed.

 

But then again anti vaxers just want not to be vaxed and have the same rights. Thankfully in most European countries we segregate already. 

 

So if you dont want to be vaccinated your choice but accept you will be limited. Each and every choice in life has pro's and con's anti vaxers just to have it their way. 

You should look up the definition of a vaccine.  If whatever you had injected doesn't provide immunity, then its not a vaccine.  And there are no "anti vaxers" no one cares how many "vaccines" you pump into yourself and your children, your just parroting catch phrases from the MSM. 

[jak2002003]

3 hours ago, smedly said:

yes they are - vaccines reduce the risks - all of them but not to zero, there are also people who cannot be vaccinated or want to be vaccinated but are behind.

 

the more unvaccinated people catching and spreading the more risk to the general population, also while this deadly virus is in circulation the higher the risk of more deadly mutations developing - if everyone had been vaccinated during the first wave of this virus we would no longer be dealing with it now - it would have been wiped out and millions of lives saved 

 

I don't like like having to be vaccinated and I also don't think people should be forced to vaccinate but in making that choice you are increasing the risk to others - that is a fact, there is also the issue of using up medical resources if and when you get sick and need life saving treatment which then deny others the use of that resource who need it 

 

Sorry but the argument to not be vaxed is a thin one and that choice definately affects other people 

I would say the people using up medical resources are the unhealthy selfish people who have made poor lifestyle choices, not taken care of their bodies, eg, the fat people, smokers, people eating bad diets and getting heart disease etc. Then they get preferential treatment to get the covid 19;vaccines over the people who eat a balanced diet, exercise and look after their health.

 

If there were not so many obese, unhealthy people about then the rest of us could have got our jab already. 

 

Rather than blaming unvaccinated people for spreading the virus and being selfish you should take a looks at those other people. 

 

You as a vaccinated person can still pass on the virus to someone who is not able to have the vaccine for health reasons just as easily as an unvaccinated person.

 

Vaccinated people still get and spread covid 19 and still can make new mutations of it. 

 

All the vaccine does is stop the vaccinated person getting severe symptoms and lessens the chances of them dying from it.

 

 

[papa al]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Source?

Natural immunity.

None of would be here without it.

[Sudarut]

15 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

I would say the people using up medical resources are the unhealthy selfish people who have made poor lifestyle choices, not taken care of their bodies, eg, the fat people, smokers, people eating bad diets and getting heart disease etc. Then they get preferential treatment to get the covid 19;vaccines over the people who eat a balanced diet, exercise and look after their health.

 

If there were not so many obese, unhealthy people about then the rest of us could have got our jab already. 

 

Rather than blaming unvaccinated people for spreading the virus and being selfish you should take a looks at those other people. 

 

You as a vaccinated person can still pass on the virus to someone who is not able to have the vaccine for health reasons just as easily as an unvaccinated person.

 

Vaccinated people still get and spread covid 19 and still can make new mutations of it. 

 

All the vaccine does is stop the vaccinated person getting severe symptoms and lessens the chances of them dying from it.

 

 

100% correct.  

Why don't we have a police officer at every fast food outlet denying service to obese people.  If your 5 foot tall and 100kg then clearly you have had to much. 

[chrissables]

3 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Sorry, don't understand any of that.  I have no intention of stopping smoking and I don't see how stopping smoking would make me 'less scared of covid'. I do not impose my smoking on others.

 

My concerns about 'other people's medical choices' as you put it have EVERYTHING to do with me if those choices put me at risk.

 

Smoking is a choice - being put at risk by others is not.

Then quarantine yourself. Simple 

[chrissables]

3 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Again your argument has no validity.  People who have the vaccine don't pose any risk to others - the unvaccinated do.

Wrong.

 

Why do you think you injecting drugs that have not passed the usual standards of safety give you the right to make other people follow you like sheep?

 

Scientists how been proven wrong so many times, you do know that i presume.