Electric vehicles of all kinds

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Why can't you just tell me? Oh, that's right, you never get past the headline

Are you my child?. There's no reason I should have to make the effort to prediigest admirably clear and accessible prose just to satisfy your whims. Just more trolling on your part.

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, JustAnotherHun said:

What it proves? If laughable 400k EVs are a danger to overstretch the system at peak hours, what will happen if there are millions?

In 2021 GB had more than 1.6 million new car registrations.

GB announced the end of burners for 2035 and BJ even came up with the plan to set the date to 2030.

That's what I would call  "act first, (maybe) think later"-politics.

 

At least, GB is not crazy enough to force the end of the conventional cars and simultaneous shut down the nuclear plants followed by all coal plants in the coming years, like the German brain athlets do. These idiots are driving the society straight to power-blackouts and think they fight the climate change by shutting down the plants and then importing the missing energy from France (nuclear) and Poland (old and dirty coal plants).

 

And who will pay the bill for this BS? It's not me, it's those on the lower end of the income range who do not know how to pay for their high priced electricity and how to afford an EV.

As previously stated  - I am an active member of EV forum in the UK and there is much discussion about the the best Time of Use Rates. EV owners are already charging over night when demand is low and supply is high, but that is only part of the way that EVs can help to stabilize the grid. As V2G (Vehicle to Grid) becomes more widespread that 80kWh battery sitting on your driveway or parked up at your office can be used to supply power back to grid at times of peak demand or charging up excess supply from the grid when it's cheap.  

 

If you want to know more about virtual power plants:

 

 

[In Full Agreement]

On 10/3/2021 at 10:46 AM, crazykopite said:

if the motor show goes ahead this year I will go and see what deal I can get on it

 

Do you think you can get a price discount at the auto show?    If yes,  we should all go there for our  next vehicle purchase.

 

 

[JustAnotherHun]

10 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

As previously stated  - I am an active member of EV forum in the UK and there is much discussion about the the best Time of Use Rates. EV owners are already charging over night when demand is low and supply is high, but that is only part of the way that EVs can help to stabilize the grid. As V2G (Vehicle to Grid) becomes more widespread that 80kWh battery sitting on your driveway or parked up at your office can be used to supply power back to grid at times of peak demand or charging up excess supply from the grid when it's cheap.  

 

I'm aware that EVs mostly are and should be loaded by night. But if you have millions of EVs instead of 400k, even through these hours an overstretching of the supply chain becomes likely.

One reason is the power cord infrastructure, that is not designed for extreme fast chargers.

 

But the idea to use EVs as power banks is funny. You charge the car over night, supply your office ( I hope, it's a very small one) with power during the blackout, and in the evening you walk home.

Some use there Teslas as crypto-mining machines too ????

 

So, If you want millions of EVs and even if you can produce enough electric power, then you first have to update your infrastructure.

[Bandersnatch]

58 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

So, If you want millions of EVs and even if you can produce enough electric power, then you first have to update your infrastructure.

Electricity infrastructure originally consisted of a few giant coal power plants producing all the power and stepping up the voltage to avoid power loss on the long journey to substations close to where it was going to be used, at which point the voltage was stepped down to a usable voltage for busines or household use.

 

The problems with this system are obvious:  - a break in the long distance cable or problem with the power plant plunges large parts of the country into darkness - just see what happens when it snows in Texas.

 

A micro-grid is a local grid, so if I am feeding power from my solar/home-batteries or EV back into the grid it is being used by my neighbours. Such a system is far more resilient and does not need a massive infrastructure upgrade.   

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, JustAnotherHun said:

I'm aware that EVs mostly are and should be loaded by night. But if you have millions of EVs instead of 400k, even through these hours an overstretching of the supply chain becomes likely.

One reason is the power cord infrastructure, that is not designed for extreme fast chargers.

 

But the idea to use EVs as power banks is funny. You charge the car over night, supply your office ( I hope, it's a very small one) with power during the blackout, and in the evening you walk home.

Some use there Teslas as crypto-mining machines too ????

 

So, If you want millions of EVs and even if you can produce enough electric power, then you first have to update your infrastructure.

You mean before any more EVs are added to the current number, the UK should upgrade its capacity so it can service millions and millions of EVs? It won't work to upgrade gradually?

[JustAnotherHun]

23 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You mean before any more EVs are added to the current number, the UK should upgrade its capacity so it can service millions and millions of EVs? It won't work to upgrade gradually?

If 400k EVs now already can cause a supply problen, yes, sure. Even more if you have such ambitious targets like no new burners from 2035 (or 2030) on. Otherwise it's the first step into rationing energy.

If you want to add 100ks of EVs year by year until 2035/30 and from then on you have to be aware that 1.6 million new EVs (new registered cars in 2021) could come at the top, when do you think you have to upgrade the infrastructure and building new plants? Both takes many years.

 

First increase the need and later build the infrastructure is madness. What would you think if domeone built a huge amount of homes and tell the buyer "well, just move in, we'll fix the water and electricity supply later"?

 

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

If 400k EVs now already can cause a supply problen, yes, sure. Even more if you have such ambitious targets like no new burners from 2035 (or 2030) on. Otherwise it's the first step into rationing energy.

If you want to add 100ks of EVs year by year until 2035/30 and from then on you have to be aware that 1.6 million new EVs (new registered cars in 2021) could come at the top, when do you think you have to upgrade the infrastructure and building new plants? Both takes many years.

 

First increase the need and later build the infrastructure is madness. What would you think if domeone built a huge amount of homes and tell the buyer "well, just move in, we'll fix the water and electricity supply later"?

 

What makes you think the UK isn't increasing its resources already?

[LarrySR]

9 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

If 400k EVs now already can cause a supply problen, yes, sure. Even more if you have such ambitious targets like no new burners from 2035 (or 2030) on. Otherwise it's the first step into rationing energy.

If you want to add 100ks of EVs year by year until 2035/30 and from then on you have to be aware that 1.6 million new EVs (new registered cars in 2021) could come at the top, when do you think you have to upgrade the infrastructure and building new plants? Both takes many years.

 

First increase the need and later build the infrastructure is madness. What would you think if domeone built a huge amount of homes and tell the buyer "well, just move in, we'll fix the water and electricity supply later"?

 

Well, you better call the board of directors at the major utility suppliers and inform them that a big demand for their product is in the pipeline.

They probably hadn't thought of that yet.

Edited February 2, 2022 by LarrySR

[placeholder]

13 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

If 400k EVs now already can cause a supply problen, yes, sure.

 

How do you know that? Grids are built to be able to withstand the periods of strongest demand. How much less is demand during off hours? Without hard numbers to back up your claim, you're basically just making an assertion. 

[JustAnotherHun]

20 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What makes you think the UK isn't increasing its resources already?

If it does, why can be 400k EVs lead to rationing?

 But ok, I don't know nothing about the situation of the infrastructure in GB and the measures to improve it. What I read a new nuclear plant will be built.

The more I know about Germany and it's crazy "Energiewende".

 

As a friend of the climate, I supplied my home many years ago with photovoltaic and upgraded it lately with a storage system. Over 12 months I produce more electric energy than my household consumes. We also have solar cells all over the roofs of our company branches.

 

The funny thing is: I make money out of it year by year. Yearly return is around 8 percent.

The sad thing is: Those who are hurt the most by crazy politics and do not know how to pay the next bill (kwh average price in 2022 = 36cent!) do not have that option. They cannot enjoy the massiv subsidies by buying an EV too.

But the Green party already has a solution for them: Subsdized cargo bikes. Maybe bad luck for them, if they live in the countryside, but this keeps those second class citizens healthy.

Edited February 2, 2022 by JustAnotherHun

[JustAnotherHun]

24 minutes ago, placeholder said:

How do you know that? Grids are built to be able to withstand the periods of strongest demand. How much less is demand during off hours? Without hard numbers to back up your claim, you're basically just making an assertion. 

How often would you like to hear it?

If 400k EVs force the government to prohibit chargers through peak hours, there IS a problem.

I get tired, answering the same questions again and again.

Edited February 2, 2022 by JustAnotherHun

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

Are you my child?. There's no reason I should have to make the effort to prediigest admirably clear and accessible prose just to satisfy your whims. Just more trolling on your part.

If you don't know just say you don't know, don't post a link to something you haven't read. 

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

How often would you like to hear it?

If 400k EVs force the government to prohibit chargers through peak hours, there IS a problem.

I get tired, answering the same questions again and again.

There's definitely a problem if daylight home or workplace charging is a must. But unless you know  what percentage of capacity is idle at various off hours and how many vehicles could be charged at those times, you don't know enough to claim that there is insufficient capacity for x number of cars.

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

If you don't know just say you don't know, don't post a link to something you haven't read. 

The childish insult of a troll.

[Yellowtail]

16 hours ago, placeholder said:

There's definitely a problem if daylight home or workplace charging is a must. But unless you know  what percentage of capacity is idle at various off hours and how many vehicles could be charged at those times, you don't know enough to claim that there is insufficient capacity for x number of cars.

People that work nights will have a problem then, yes? 

 

What about the additional load once heating with fossil-fuel is converted to renewables?

 

 

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

People that work nights will have a problem then, yes? 

 

What about the additional load once heating with fossil-fuel is converted to renewables?

 

 

Yes all those millions and millions of people who work from say, 5 PM to 8AM (not exactly sure what the  will be terribly inconvenienced. Especially those who work 7 days per week. They may be reduced to going to public charging stations, which aren't subject to the hourly restrictions.

 

The UK is not only rapidly building more renewable capacity but it is also has projects in the works to import massive amounts of solar power from Morocco and Spain.

[Yellowtail]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

The UK is not only rapidly building more renewable capacity but it is also has projects in the works to import massive amounts of solar power from Morocco and Spain.

Yes, and the cost is so low the cost to the consumer has doubled and restrictions have to be implemented. How funny is that? 

 

But the intelligentsia love it, their end game is to get the hoi polloi out of cars and private homes. 

 

get the middle class out of cars and private homeshttps://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/11/you-need-to-make-350000-a-year-to-live-a-middle-class-lifestyle-today-heres-why.htmlqs=n - Search (bing.com)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Yellowtail
clarity

[Bandersnatch]

51 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, and the cost is so low the cost to the consumer has doubled and restrictions have to be implemented. How funny is that? 

 

But the intelligentsia love it, their end game is to get the hoi polloi out of cars and private homes. 

 

get the middle class out of cars and private homeshttps://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/11/you-need-to-make-350000-a-year-to-live-a-middle-class-lifestyle-today-heres-why.htmlqs=n - Search (bing.com)

 

Luckily most of us on this forum live in Thailand where ฿350,000 a year makes a middle class lifestyle eminently achievable

 

If the definition of intelligentsia is the ability to post an internet link correctly, then consider me a member. 

[Yellowtail]

14 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

Luckily most of us on this forum live in Thailand where ฿350,000 a year makes a middle class lifestyle eminently achievable

฿29K a month, really? What is that a fan-room and mama noodles? 

 

14 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

If the definition of intelligentsia is the ability to post an internet link correctly, then consider me a member. 

While you may or may not be a member, you clearly are unable to define it. 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, and the cost is so low the cost to the consumer has doubled and restrictions have to be implemented. How funny is that? 

 

But the intelligentsia love it, their end game is to get the hoi polloi out of cars and private homes. 

 

get the middle class out of cars and private homeshttps://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/11/you-need-to-make-350000-a-year-to-live-a-middle-class-lifestyle-today-heres-why.htmlqs=n - Search (bing.com)

Actually given that most electricity still comes from fossil fuels, what makes you think that renewables are responsible for the rise in price?

What's more. just because wholesale prices of renewables are low and getting lower, that doesn't necessarily translate to lower prices for the consumer.  There are lots of other factors that govern utility prices. Prices from other sources Taxes and regulations. And maintaining and investing in the grid. But in the few locales where renewables have become a significant part of power supply, they can result in lower prices.

 

National energy market report details expected power bill price drops across Australia

Household power bills are predicted to continue falling in the coming years, despite the closure of major power stations including Liddell power station in New South Wales.

 

A new report by the Australian Energy Market Commission (AEMC) says the impact of the closures will be largely offset by decreasing wholesale and environmental costs as more renewable energy comes online across Australia.

It forecasts an average national drop in annual bills of $77 by 2024.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-25/national-energy-market-report-details-power-bill-price-drops/100647404

[Yellowtail]

27 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Actually given that most electricity still comes from fossil fuels, what makes you think that renewables are responsible for the rise in price?

What's more. just because wholesale prices of renewables are low and getting lower, that doesn't necessarily translate to lower prices for the consumer.  There are lots of other factors that govern utility prices. Prices from other sources Taxes and regulations. And maintaining and investing in the grid. But in the few locales where renewables have become a significant part of power supply, they can result in lower prices.

 

National energy market report details expected power bill price drops across Australia

Household power bills are predicted to continue falling in the coming years, despite the closure of major power stations including Liddell power station in New South Wales.

 

A new report by the Australian Energy Market Commission (AEMC) says the impact of the closures will be largely offset by decreasing wholesale and environmental costs as more renewable energy comes online across Australia.

It forecasts an average national drop in annual bills of $77 by 2024.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-25/national-energy-market-report-details-power-bill-price-drops/100647404

From your link: "AEMC chair Anna Collyer said power bills were expected to rise slightly, by about $20 in 2022/23, as Liddell closed down"

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

From your link: "AEMC chair Anna Collyer said power bills were expected to rise slightly, by about $20 in 2022/23, as Liddell closed down"

First off, you managed to ignore the lead sentence I cited which noted that prices have been falling in Australia. 

Second you'll note that the 2nd sentence said declines in wholesale price drop and lower environmental costs would help offset the cost of closing the coal plants. As I noted above, wholesale costs are not the sole factor in setting rates.

Also, there are costs associated with decommissioning coal plants

But probably the major cause is that the power lost from coal generation would be replaced by electricity from gas powered plants. As the article notes there will be a short interregnum until enough cheaper renewable sources come online.

 

[Yellowtail]

10 hours ago, placeholder said:

First off, you managed to ignore the lead sentence I cited which noted that prices have been falling in Australia. 

I noticed that, but did not see any numbers, did you?

 

10 hours ago, placeholder said:

Second you'll note that the 2nd sentence said declines in wholesale price drop and lower environmental costs would help offset the cost of closing the coal plants. As I noted above, wholesale costs are not the sole factor in setting rates.

But the wholesale price is generally the most significant factor in setting rates, yes? 

 

10 hours ago, placeholder said:

Also, there are costs associated with decommissioning coal plants

But probably the major cause is that the power lost from coal generation would be replaced by electricity from gas powered plants. As the article notes there will be a short interregnum until enough cheaper renewable sources come online.

Why are they replacing coal-fired plants with gas-fired plants if renewables are actually cheaper? 

 

 

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I noticed that, but did not see any numbers, did you?

 

But the wholesale price is generally the most significant factor in setting rates, yes? 

 

Why are they replacing coal-fired plants with gas-fired plants if renewables are actually cheaper? 

 

 

So, you're saying that they are lying? Up to you to prove that. Not the kind of lie that's easily gotten away with.

 

Well, even if it is the most significant factor, they did say that there would be only a slight uptick in prices. What does that tell you?

 

For one thing, in case you haven't heard, coal fired plants are far more polluting than natural gas.

Also, the the current conservative govt is very favorably disposed towards the fossil fuel industry. When private industry refused to invest in building a new gas power plant, the government stepped in.

Federal government will spend $600 million on new Kurri Kurri gas plant in the NSW Hunter Valley

The government's intention to intervene in the NSW energy market was revealed last month, after the private sector was given a deadline to invest in new projects before the end of April.

The new plant would work to make up the energy shortfall left by Liddell alongside a 316-megawatt gas power station EnergyAustralia is establishing in Wollongong.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-18/federal-government-commits-600m-for-kurri-kurri-gas-plant/100147956

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-18/federal-government-commits-600m-for-kurri-kurri-gas-plant/100147956

[JustAnotherHun]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Why are they replacing coal-fired plants with gas-fired plants if renewables are actually cheaper? 

Coal is replaced by gas because it's less "dirty".

And you'll ever need conventional plants (nuclear/gas/coal) to guarantee permanent electricity supply as long as the storage problem of renewables is not solved.

 

[Yellowtail]

29 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So, you're saying that they are lying? Up to you to prove that. Not the kind of lie that's easily gotten away with.

No, I'm not saying they're lying, but without actual numbers and how get to them, it's meaningless.

 

29 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, even if it is the most significant factor, they did say that there would be only a slight uptick in prices. What does that tell you?

That the price is going up. 

 

29 minutes ago, placeholder said:

For one thing, in case you haven't heard, coal fired plants are far more polluting than natural gas.

While generally true, your response really has nothing to do with my question. The question, which I have asked you many times with you providing a reasonable response, is that given renewable energy is cheaper, why are they building a gas-fired plant?

 

As I have pointed out any number of times, if renewables were actually cheaper , every provider in the US would be in the process of converting, and there would be no need for mandates of subsidies. 

 

Do you not ever wonder about that? Why would any privately held company not choose to increase their profit given the chance? 

 

29 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Also, the the current conservative govt is very favorably disposed towards the fossil fuel industry. When private industry refused to invest in building a new gas power plant, the government stepped in.

Is it your position that "private industry" actually wanted to replace an existing coal-fired plant with a new renewable energy plant which would provide cleaner, lower cost power, but the government came in and stopped them?

 

And now the government is compelling that same "private industry" to build a gas-fired plant, even though it will cost more and be more harmful to the environment than renewable energy plant, is that also correct? 

[seedy]

Another note on Tesla "Quality" - 555

https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla-model-s-evs-fail-germanys-strict-inspection-after-3-years

[Yellowtail]

33 minutes ago, seedy said:

Another note on Tesla "Quality" - 555

https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla-model-s-evs-fail-germanys-strict-inspection-after-3-years

Anytime I see a report like this I find it suspect.

 

First, the report judges the vehicles only by the number of vehicles found to have a defect of any kind, and (apparently) does not even consider the severity of the defects. So if five out of a hundred BMWs have blown transmissions, they will still rank higher than Benz, if there were six out of a hundred Benz' with bald tires.  

 

Second, they provide three links to the Model S's  supposed "defects",  but one of the links had  NOTHING to do with the Model S, one had to do with only a single Model S in California, and the only one that had anything to do with a Model S in Germany, only concerned a single vehicle. 

 

Finally, mileage of the vehicles is not even considered. TUV inspectors are performing nothing but a compulsory government road worthiness test. How much of a test do you think that is, and how likely do you think it is that they will find an actual manufacturing defeat? I think it a good bet that for every real manufacturing defect they find ten bald tires. So out off the four vehicles mentioned in the article, the German inspectors reported more "defects" in the American and Japanese vehicles than they did the two German vehicles. Shocking.

 

While I'm not a fan of EVs, I believe Tesla builds a fine product, and I think the article is nothing but an anti-Tesla hit-piece.

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, seedy said:

Another note on Tesla "Quality" - 555

https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla-model-s-evs-fail-germanys-strict-inspection-after-3-years

What do you expect this report to achieve.

The advent of EVs is a done deal...its happening get used to it.

Any arguments about power supply etc are iirrevant.... it will happen...

There is nothing you can say that will stop them ...

Edited February 4, 2022 by kwilco