Foreign Resident in Thailand - interpretation for travel purposes

[ozgolfguy]

Hi All,

 

Having lived in Thailand for many years on an annual retirement extension, I naively thought myself as a foreign resident. However, on a recent overseas trip it was made clear by two different Thai embassies that I am classified as a "Long Stay Visitor (OA - up to one-year)" and not as a foreign resident & that the 21 -day stay in an approved country/s was required to obtain a COE for the Phuket sandbox.

 

Noting the recent changes effective November 1st for incoming travel, the following statement echoes what I recently experienced, so there does not appear to be any relief for those of us that live here as Long Stay Visitor but who travel frequently:

 

"For returning Thais and foreign residents, it is not necessary to be in the approved country for 21 days or more, as long as they re traveling from Thailand to the approved country/s and return within the last 21 days"

 

Would anyone be aware of any provisions to the revised travel policy (returning to Thailand after departing Thailand) that would apply for those expats livings in Thailand as "Long Stay Visitors" ?

 

Thanks

[ubonjoe]

For the Phuket sandbox the listed country requirement was eliminated a couple of months ago. 

The listed countries is now for entering with no quarantine other that one night to get negative covid 19 test result if full vaccinated.

The term for being a foreign resident can easily be misunderstood. I think in your case they gave you incorrect info. The term resident means you have been living here. They may of thought it meant having permanent residency in the country which wrong.

[The Hammer2021]

You can't be a resident unless you have a resident permit/visa/pass/ stamp..surely?

[Will B Good]

18 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The term resident means you have been living here

Sorry to select......but that could be (mis)interpreted in so many ways by the legal beagles????

[jackdd]

19 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The term resident means you have been living here. They may of thought it meant having permanent residency in the country which wrong.

Depends on the wording they use in the official Thai announcement.

Does anybody have the official Thai announcement and can post it here? Maybe it does indeed say "resident", and somebody on a non-immigrant visa is just no resident under Thai immigration law.

Edited October 24, 2021 by jackdd

[RichardColeman]

2 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Depends on the wording they use in the official Thai announcement.

Does anybody have the official Thai announcement and can post it here?

Hard make an official announcement when it changes every 5 minutes.

 

[overherebc]

If you haven't been issued with a Thai passport you're a tourist.

[Will B Good]

3 minutes ago, overherebc said:

If you haven't been issued with a Thai passport you're a tourist.

That would provide a clear, unambiguous definition for sure. Just need to add "......or not entitled to......."

Edited October 24, 2021 by Will B Good

[Saanim]

Resident in Thailand is a special status with a special paperwork (and the money what it costs). Such a status is nothing uncommon in other countries.

 

The foreign resident is still keeping his original passport unless he will not become a Thai citizen.

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Saanim

[ubonjoe]

19 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Does anybody have the official Thai announcement and can post it here?

See this PDF file from the Thai embassy in the US that is in Thai and English.

https://thaiembdc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Entering-Thailand-after-1-November-THandENG-final-1.pdf

 

It states this at the end of the 4th page. "• Please note that travelers must stay in the U.S. or countries in the list for at least 21 days or previously came from Thailand to the U.S."

[Myran]

18 minutes ago, overherebc said:

If you haven't been issued with a Thai passport you're a tourist.

Uh-oh, who's going to break the news to the people with permanent residency but no Thai passport?

[overherebc]

5 hours ago, Myran said:

Uh-oh, who's going to break the news to the people with permanent residency but no Thai passport?

Wouldn't the term permanent resident mean being resident and would that be the same/similar to being a sort of resident, maybe?

But, when you land in Thailand you will be using for eg a UK/USA etc passport so how will they classify you?

Edited October 24, 2021 by overherebc

[Myran]

1 hour ago, overherebc said:

Wouldn't the term permanent resident mean being resident and would that be the same/similar to being a sort of resident, maybe?

But, when you land in Thailand you will be using for eg a UK/USA etc passport so how will they classify you?

No idea what you're trying to say. You claimed that without a Thai passport, you're a tourist, which would include people with permanent residency status.

[abrahamzvi]

On 10/24/2021 at 2:27 PM, overherebc said:

If you haven't been issued with a Thai passport you're a tourist.

Not so! Even the strict (in my view incorrect) interpretation, says "residents of Thailand" which naturally means also foreigners  residing here, including, of course, Permanent Residents. If they meant only Thais, they would have clearly said so, as they do on other restrictions.

[jomtienisgood]

18 hours ago, overherebc said:

Wouldn't the term permanent resident mean being resident and would that be the same/similar to being a sort of resident, maybe?

But, when you land in Thailand you will be using for eg a UK/USA etc passport so how will they classify you?

If you have Permanent Residency Status it says in your Passport ' Immigrant ' ..........

[TigerandDog]

Who is considered a resident of Thailand?

 

 

“Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand

 

While the topic makes no mention of "resident for tax purposes" it is worth noting that The Thailand Revenue Office applies the aforementioned in determining whether a foreigner is a resident or a non-resident. Therefore one could consider, if Thai logic actually existed as we know logic to exist, that any foreigner residing in Thailand for an aggregate of 180 days or more in any given calendar year to be a resident.

[scorecard]

On 10/24/2021 at 6:48 PM, Myran said:

Uh-oh, who's going to break the news to the people with permanent residency but no Thai passport?

Foreigners who hold a 'Thai Certificate of Residence' (commonly called 'Permanent Resident' or 'PR') are well aware of the status that they hold.

 

- There are foreigners who have been granted Thai citizenship and therefore a Thai passport. And this includes some foreigners who were approved for a 'Thai Certificate of Residence, then applied for and got full Thai citizenship/Thai passport .

 

- See below for the details...

 

- Foreigners who are in Thailand on various visas / visa extensions, different total periods of time and which require regular renewal, with much supporting documentation and with no guarantee of renewal.

 

Then there's the foreigners in the middle above (see below for details) who have been approved for and hold a Thai Certificate of residence (commonly called Permanent Residence - PR):

 

• They don't have Thai citizenship/passport but can apply for same, and holding 'PR' makes it a bit easier to get Thai citizenship.
• They don't have to do annual/periodical visas/extensions. 
• They don't have to ever renew their Thai Certificate of Residence/ Permanent Residency, it's issued for life.
• Nothing has changed. 

 

[jayboy]

3 hours ago, TigerandDog said:

Who is considered a resident of Thailand?

 

 

“Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand

 

While the topic makes no mention of "resident for tax purposes" it is worth noting that The Thailand Revenue Office applies the aforementioned in determining whether a foreigner is a resident or a non-resident. Therefore one could consider, if Thai logic actually existed as we know logic to exist, that any foreigner residing in Thailand for an aggregate of 180 days or more in any given calendar year to be a resident.

The definition you quote is for tax purposes only and I see no lack of logic that the Immigration Department has its own definition of residence.A permanent resident might be in Thailand for less than a week each year, but he would still be a permanent resident.

[ubonjoe]

On 10/24/2021 at 2:47 PM, ubonjoe said:

See this PDF file from the Thai embassy in the US that is in Thai and English.

https://thaiembdc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Entering-Thailand-after-1-November-THandENG-final-1.pdf

 

It states this at the end of the 4th page. "• Please note that travelers must stay in the U.S. or countries in the list for at least 21 days or previously came from Thailand to the U.S."

I think my post above answers the question.

[Saanim]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

Foreigners who hold a 'Thai Certificate of Residence' (commonly called 'Permanent Resident' or 'PR') are well aware of the status that they hold.

Correct. The most important on this status is that the holder does not need to bother with a visa extensions or renewal. However, when travelling out of Thailand - with intention coming back - he needs a re-entry visa as any other visa holder.

 

[Myran]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

Foreigners who hold a 'Thai Certificate of Residence' (commonly called 'Permanent Resident' or 'PR') are well aware of the status that they hold.

 

- There are foreigners who have been granted Thai citizenship and therefore a Thai passport. And this includes some foreigners who were approved for a 'Thai Certificate of Residence, then applied for and got full Thai citizenship/Thai passport .

 

- See below for the details...

 

- Foreigners who are in Thailand on various visas / visa extensions, different total periods of time and which require regular renewal, with much supporting documentation and with no guarantee of renewal.

 

Then there's the foreigners in the middle above (see below for details) who have been approved for and hold a Thai Certificate of residence (commonly called Permanent Residence - PR):

 

• They don't have Thai citizenship/passport but can apply for same, and holding 'PR' makes it a bit easier to get Thai citizenship.
• They don't have to do annual/periodical visas/extensions. 
• They don't have to ever renew their Thai Certificate of Residence/ Permanent Residency, it's issued for life.
• Nothing has changed. 

 

Not sure why you're quoting me. I haven't asked for information about residency or citizenship, nor does anything you write in any way refute my point.

[khunjeff]

On 10/24/2021 at 3:23 AM, jackdd said:

Depends on the wording they use in the official Thai announcement.

Does anybody have the official Thai announcement and can post it here? Maybe it does indeed say "resident", and somebody on a non-immigrant visa is just no resident under Thai immigration law.

The Royal Gazette uses the phrase "ผู้ที่พำนักอยู่ในราชอาณาจักร", which roughly means "people who stay (or lodge, or sojourn, or dwell) in the Kingdom". It seems to refer to being in Thailand as a matter of actual, physical fact, rather than to having any particular status.

[The Hammer2021]

33 minutes ago, khunjeff said:

The Royal Gazette uses the phrase "ผู้ที่พำนักอยู่ในราชอาณาจักร", which roughly means "people who stay (or lodge, or sojourn, or dwell) in the Kingdom". It seems to refer to being in Thailand as a matter of actual, physical fact, rather than to having any particular status.

The term 'resident' is riddled with different meanings and legal interpretations. Just witness the UK system introduced around 2015 to help people understand their 'residental' status

[TigerandDog]

12 hours ago, jayboy said:

The definition you quote is for tax purposes only and I see no lack of logic that the Immigration Department has its own definition of residence.A permanent resident might be in Thailand for less than a week each year, but he would still be a permanent resident.

you obviously didn't read my last paragraph did you.

[4MyEgo]

On 10/24/2021 at 5:29 PM, ozgolfguy said:

Having lived in Thailand for many years on an annual retirement extension, I naively thought myself as a foreign resident. However, on a recent overseas trip it was made clear by two different Thai embassies that I am classified as a "Long Stay Visitor (OA - up to one-year)" and not as a foreign resident

Best way I can explain the foreign resident part for you is that under Australian legislation, particularly for tax purposes, you are deemed a foreign resident once you are out of the country for 183 days in any given tax year, some use the word non-resident, same meaning, and if deemed a foreign resident, you don't pay any tax, but if you hold property in Australia, you will pay Capital Gains Tax through the nose, but that's a different story.

 

That said, when talking about residency, it is predominantly for your country of birth, i.e. unless you have been granted residency in another country, e.g. my Thai wife was granted residency in Australia after a period of time, she then applied for Australian Citizenship after another period of time and it was granted.

 

All foreigners in Thailand are regarded as long stay visitors, regardless whether they are on an OA extension or a marriage extension, as I am on, i.e. the extension grants us the right to stay long term (12) months, providing we comply with their requirements, and those of us who live here continue to repeat this every year, so that we get to stay here a further (12) months, we are not foreign residents as far as Thai's are concerned when it comes to "residency", like my wife did, if one applies for residency and then is granted residency, then they become a resident, however I doubt very much that the term would be used as a "foreign resident", more likely a "resident of Thailand". 

 

As long stay visitors, we can be asked to leave at any time, and we can also be deported if we break the rules.

 

Hope that part clears the foreign residency side of things, as for travel, can't help on that as I am not looking into it till 1st quarter of the new year for mid year travelling, anything earlier than will just change and confuse me in the months to follow as we are in an evolving and confusing time.

Edited October 26, 2021 by 4MyEgo

[4MyEgo]

12 hours ago, Saanim said:

Correct. The most important on this status is that the holder does not need to bother with a visa extensions or renewal. However, when travelling out of Thailand - with intention coming back - he needs a re-entry visa as any other visa holder.

 

This way is better than the Australia permanent resident status, as a permanent resident of Australia must renew their residency every 5 years if they are out of the country, otherwise it lapses, hence the reason I made sure my wife got her citizenship after her permanent residency, that way, no dramas and the only difference was that, plus she had to vote, but not now while living in Thailand as she is now a non-resident, and non residents cannot vote as they are absent from the country.....lol

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, TigerandDog said:

you obviously didn't read my last paragraph did you.

Yes I did.Hence my point that despite your remark about "Thai logic", residence criteria for tax purposes and immigration purposes are not necessarily connected.

[ubonjoe]

10 hours ago, khunjeff said:

The Royal Gazette uses the phrase "ผู้ที่พำนักอยู่ในราชอาณาจักร", which roughly means "people who stay (or lodge, or sojourn, or dwell) in the Kingdom". It seems to refer to being in Thailand as a matter of actual, physical fact, rather than to having any particular status.

That is basically what the info I posted a link to twice before that people have  apparently not read says.

 

14 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

"• Please note that travelers must stay in the U.S. or countries in the list for at least 21 days or previously came from Thailand to the U.S."

 

[jiss2a]

The Thai Embassy in Paris mentions for eligible countries : "Must reside in the countries for at least 21 consecutive days, except those who have just traveled out of Thailand"...without specifying any resident status.

And further down on the page but written in French : "The traveler must spend at least 21 days prior to travel in eligible countries (one exception: the traveler who has spent less than 21 days in eligible countries but had been in Thailand immediately before)"

 

http://www.thaiembassy.fr/fr/voyagecovid/ 

[Saanim]

16 hours ago, Myran said:

Not sure why you're quoting me. I haven't asked for information about residency or citizenship, nor does anything you write in any way refute my point.

Sorry if you were offended when I said  "correct". Did I refute your point?

 

Anyway, just mentioning what is most interesting for foreigners dwelling in Thailand: the Holly Visa.

 

As I said, once somebody is awarded the status "resident" with the proper paperwork (a special booklet), he does not need to renew his visa unless travelling out and in.