Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m wondering what anyone could find funny about that?

We've seen a history of Russian troll armies online since about 2016. I suspect there's been a renaissance of them lately.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Why is the Russian forces under performing.

Who said that Russia was going to use nuclear weapons.

Western military analysat. ????

A western military analyst has far more credibility that your pathetic laughing emoji.........kind of shows just who's side your on as if there were any doubts.

[Kwasaki]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Putin put them on alert. Show me where the west did the same.

 

“This is unprecedented in the post-Cold War era,” Daryl Kimball, the executive director of the Arms Control Association, a Washington nonprofit, told NBC. “There has been no instance in which a U.S. or a Russian leader has raised the alert level of their nuclear forces in a middle of a crisis in order to try to coerce the other side’s behavior.”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/02/opinion/ukraine-putin-nuclear-war.html

The problem as I see it is your posts are all western reports. 

 

I think the resent outburst by the Ukrainian Presendent is an indication of what's really going on. 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Kwasaki said:

The problem as I see it is your posts are all western reports. 

 

I think the resent outburst by the Ukrainian Presendent is an indication of what's really going on. 

The Russian reports aren't objective because of heavy censorship and threats to jail anybody not toeing the party line. Anything the Kremlin disagrees with is being labelled as "fake news". The Russian propaganda machine is on full power. Show me a single anti Putin news article emanating from Russia in the past week. Failure to do so will prove my point. When the BBC which is mandated by law to be unbiased ceases operations because it fears arrest of their journalists it's telling.

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

A western military analyst has far more credibility that your pathetic laughing emoji.........kind of shows just who's side your on as if there were any doubts.

Never any doubt.

[Kwasaki]

30 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The Russian reports aren't objective because of heavy censorship and threats to jail anybody not toeing the party line. Anything the Kremlin disagrees with is being labelled as "fake news". The Russian propaganda machine is on full power. Show me a single anti Putin news article emanating from Russia in the past week. Failure to do so will prove my point. When the BBC which is mandated by law to be unbiased ceases operations because it fears arrest of their journalists it's telling.

True have stopped RT news being shown so I can't hear the propergander.

I agree any news in Russia is vetted apparently before broadcasting. 

I don't trust BBC reports much prefer independent reports but you have to keep an open mind on anything reported on this terrible time in world history.

France 24 has been reasonable in showing both sides to an extent.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Kwasaki said:

True have stopped RT news being shown so I can't hear the propergander.

I agree any news in Russia is vetted apparently before broadcasting. 

I don't trust BBC reports much prefer independent reports but you have to keep an open mind on anything reported on this terrible time in world history.

France 24 has been reasonable in showing both sides to an extent.

RT Putin propaganda channel is on youtube comrade.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

True have stopped RT news being shown so I can't hear the propergander.

I agree any news in Russia is vetted apparently before broadcasting. 

I don't trust BBC reports much prefer independent reports but you have to keep an open mind on anything reported on this terrible time in world history.

France 24 has been reasonable in showing both sides to an extent.

DW news has been pretty good as well. Both are live on YT.

[Kwasaki]

Just now, Jingthing said:

RT Putin propaganda channel is on youtube comrade.

Thanks if I get time I'll look I find it for want of better words funny watching Al Jazeera and RT and France 24.

As I have said France 24 finds a bit of a balance from both sides.  

[ozimoron]

9 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Thanks if I get time I'll look I find it for want of better words funny watching Al Jazeera and RT and France 24.

As I have said France 24 finds a bit of a balance from both sides.  

Reasonable people aren't avoiding balanced viewpoints. The issue here is that one side is clearly wrong and committing crimes against humanity and war crimes.

 

Russia blocked Facebook and some other websites and passed a law that gave Moscow much stronger powers to crack down on independent journalism, prompting the BBC, Bloomberg and other foreign media to suspend reporting in the country

 

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/top-wrap-1-europes-largest-nuclear-power-plant-fire-after-russian-attack-mayor-2022-03-04/

Edited March 5, 2022 by ozimoron

[friendofthai]

On 2/25/2022 at 3:09 PM, tgw said:

nope, it was certainly not OK for the USA to do what it did in Irak, not in my opinion, and a number of US leaders should have been tried for war crimes.

 

but this is completely different.

The phrase "this is completely different" (For googling In Russian: "Вы не понимаете, это другое!") has become a meme in Russia which is widely used to emphasize the hypocrisy of the West.

[Hummin]

20 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Reasonable people aren't avoiding balanced viewpoints. The issue here is that one side is clearly wrong and committing crimes against humanity and war crimes.

Yes, one side is the aggressor but both sides serves heavy sided propaganda! That is the problem and easy to be carried away emotionally. 
 

I react to Ukraine continue to fight among civilians, something we/countries who took part in the war on terror have claimed after every bombing of civilians, that the enemy did hide among civilians. This happens in this war to, do not forget that, and it is part of the wargame, where you accept civilian losses from both parts. I know it is not a politically correct statement, but it is the raw truth.
 

It is okay to have two thoughts about the same problem right? 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Hummin

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, friendofthai said:

The phrase "this is completely different" (For googling In Russian: "Вы не понимаете, это другое!") has become a meme in Russia which is widely used to emphasize the hypocrisy of the West.

I believe a number of war crimes from WW11 onwards have not been tried but that doesn't mean Putin's bombing of civilians in the Ukraine wasn't a war crime. Look over there is a deflection, not a defence.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

Yes, one side is the aggressor but both sides serves heavy sided propaganda! That is the problem and easy to be carried away emotionally. 
 

I react to Ukraine continue to fight among civilians, something we/countries who took part in the war on terror have claimed after every bombing of civilians, that the enemy did hide among civilians. This happens in this war to, do not forget that, and it is part of the wargame, where you accept civilian losses from both parts. I know it is politically correct statement, but it is the raw truth.
 

It is okay to have two thoughts about the same problem right? 

What isn't ok is to attack civilians while making accusations that they are using civilians as human shields. It's still a war crime anyway you want to paint it, whether true or not and I don't believe Russia had the intelligence data to support any such accusation.

[Kwasaki]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Reasonable people aren't avoiding balanced viewpoints. The issue here is that one side is clearly wrong and committing crimes against humanity and war crimes.

Well I find it reasonable to know the truth of what's really happening on both sides and I see nothing but propergander and people with bucket mouths. 

 

On a different note I would like to see NATO getting to do something now instead of talking and that is get other countries on borders now into NATO without delay that are not in NATO. 

i.e. There is talkvof where will Russia go next after Ukraine. 

[steven100]

If NATO and specifically the US were serious about being a deterrent to the Ukraine invasion from Russia they should have amassed troops at the Ukraine Russian border when Putin was doing similar.

This in my opinion would have averted the catastrophe that is unfolding now ......  as I doubt Putin would have invaded Ukraine with NATO and US forces at the doorstep.   imo

and while I understand that the US doesn't want confrontation with Russia,   I still say it would have been the possible solution to avoiding the Russian incurrence that has happened. 

 

The US has let Ukraine down and lost all credibility as being any sort of a leader.   

[ozimoron]

Just now, steven100 said:

If NATO and specifically the US were serious about being a deterrent to the Ukraine invasion from Russia they should have amassed troops at the Ukraine Russian border when Putin was doing similar.

This in my opinion would have averted the catastrophe that is unfolding now ......  as I doubt Putin would have invaded Ukraine with NATO and US forces at the doorstep.   imo

and while I understand that the US doesn't want confrontation with Russia,   I still say it would have been the possible solution to avoiding the Russian incurrence that has happened. 

 

The US has let Ukraine down and lost all credibility as being any sort of a leader.   

That would have been an escalation and given Putin some level of justification. The west also believed Putin's lies about not invading. NATO was never going to cross the border so what would have been the point to amass troops on the border?

[Hummin]

8 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

What isn't ok is to attack civilians while making accusations that they are using civilians as human shields. It's still a war crime anyway you want to paint it, whether true or not and I don't believe Russia had the intelligence data to support any such accusation.

Unfortunate, this have been the practice for as long there have been a war, and also the last two decades using drones to take out enemies. 
 

Latest incident I paid attention to, was in afghanistan, and I promise you, Putin will make use of every mistake done by the west to his favor now. And he do in every single propaganda video, he have used the allies in wests every mistake and wrongdoing to justify his invation of Ukraine. And also by that proved his point why it is necessery to stop Ukraine being member of Nato. 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/us-military-says-10-civilians-killed-kabul-drone-strike-last-month-2021-09-17/

Edited March 5, 2022 by Hummin

[ozimoron]

Just now, Hummin said:

Unfortunate, this have been the practice for as long there have been a war, and also the last two decades using drones to take out ene,ies. 
 

Latest incident I paid attention to, was in afghanistan, and I promise you, Putin will make use of every mistake done by the weat to his favor now. And he do in every single propaganda video, he have used the allies in west every mistake and wrongdoing to justify his invation of Ukraine. And also by that proved his point why it is necessery to stop Ukraine being member of Nato. 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/us-military-says-10-civilians-killed-kabul-drone-strike-last-month-2021-09-17/

It still doesn't excuse war crimes now does it? Pointing to an occasional misfired missile doesn't justify the level of indiscriminate shelling of civilians. Which of these numbers is larger? 10 or 2,000?

[Kwasaki]

13 minutes ago, friendofthai said:

The phrase "this is completely different" (For googling In Russian: "Вы не понимаете, это другое!") has become a meme in Russia which is widely used to emphasize the hypocrisy of the West.

An interview with Peter Hitches on LBC was pointing out just that referring to past history and how different things could have been in the world today if the attitude and treatment of Russia by the west had been friendly.

[Hummin]

11 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It still doesn't excuse war crimes now does it? Pointing to an occasional misfired missile doesn't justify the level of indiscriminate shelling of civilians. Which of these numbers is larger? 10 or 2,000?

The problem is, it is a warcrime when the enemy do it, not a warcrime  when the Allies who is in power do it! The allies just do accidentally mistakes because the enemy hide among civilians. Dont you see how easy it can be used against us, when it have been common practice to long without any consequences.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Hummin

[steven100]

10 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

That would have been an escalation and given Putin some level of justification. The west also believed Putin's lies about not invading. NATO was never going to cross the border so what would have been the point to amass troops on the border?

They ( US ) were absolutely wrong in believing Putin,   I mean,  come on ......  the guy sends thousands of troops and military hardware to the border   !!    they weren't sent there to play hockey that's for sure ..... blind freddy could see what it was about.  

So If the US had the balls then to amass thousands of troops the same border then Putin would likely have had second thoughts about the invasion ......   get my point   ?

 

however,  in hindsight... we don't really know what he would have done.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by steven100

[Kwasaki]

10 minutes ago, steven100 said:

If NATO and specifically the US were serious about being a deterrent to the Ukraine invasion from Russia they should have amassed troops at the Ukraine Russian border when Putin was doing similar.

This in my opinion would have averted the catastrophe that is unfolding now ......  as I doubt Putin would have invaded Ukraine with NATO and US forces at the doorstep.   imo

and while I understand that the US doesn't want confrontation with Russia,   I still say it would have been the possible solution to avoiding the Russian incurrence that has happened. 

 

The US has let Ukraine down and lost all credibility as being any sort of a leader.   

Although I am no supporter of the USA I find opinion totally unfair.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

The problem is, it is a warcrime when the enemy do it, not a warcrime  the Allies who is in power! The allies just do accidentally mistakes because the enemy hide among civilians. Dont you see how easy it can be used against us, when it have been common practice to long without any consequences.

All sides commit war crimes and all war crimes should be prosecuted. The ICC explicitly said that they intend to investigate war crimes by both sides in the Ukraine.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, steven100 said:

They were absolutely wrong in believing Putin,   I mean,  come on ......  the guy send thousands of troops and military hardware to the border   !!    they weren't sent there to play hockey that's for sure ..... blind freddy could see what it was about.  

So If the US has the balls then to amass thousands of troops t the same border then Putin would likely have second thoughts about the invasion ......   get my point   ?

No, the Ukraine is not a NATO country and Putin knows it. It would have been a futile and aggressive gesture and nothing more..

[steven100]

4 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Although I am no supporter of the USA I find opinion totally unfair.

and what Putin is doing is fair ?   killing innocent children and families  ?

[spidermike007]

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

Not really, since we see people being shot at who try to take pictures some more visual than others, and you tell me what you had been doing if you where the soldier se a movement, a reflection and you would think that was somebody who would try to kill you. This war going on in a city, among civilian’s so what to expect? 
 

one thing clear, Putin is a war crimminal, and I do not support him, Im just writing what I think based on my military training, my security traing, and my non active combat service experience. 
 

After seing burning soldiers on ground I believe most soldiers now, fight to survive, and then they will pull the trigger when they think it is me or them. 
 

quite alot of graphic pictures reminding them out on social media after attacks from light anti tank weapons like M72, and 84mm carl gustav that is supported and given by Nato members. The worst weapen to fear for a tank operator and its crew is anti tank weapens. Horrible death. I know, since I used to operate those weapons myself, and know how effective they can be. 

I get all that. But, does targeting civilian apartment blocks by air and missile attack, accomplish any of Putin's military objectives? Or is that the objective? Simply raining down terror? 

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, steven100 said:

and what Putin is doing is fair ?   killing innocent children and families  ?

No of course not I just think it's unfair to blame USA that's all. 

[spidermike007]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

The outcome is far from known. The Russian military is under performing to the extent that the Russian madman is now threatening use of nuclear weapons.

 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/02/no-youre-not-imagining-it-russias-army-is-inept.html

 

Military analysts have identified five main problems with the Russian attack: the failure to quickly replace the Ukraine government; not enough soldiers to cover three fronts in a country of 44 million; an inability to control the skies; poor coordination between the attacking forces; and fuel shortages.

“It is clear that the initial plan failed,” said Michael Shoebridge, the director of the Defence, Strategy and National Security Program at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute

 

https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/why-russia-s-military-strategy-is-failing-20220304-p5a1ov

One would expect nothing less from Putin, than under performance. He is an empty suit dictator. Smart but not clever. Aggressive but not courageous. 

[Hummin]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

All sides commit war crimes and all war crimes should be prosecuted. The ICC explicitly said that they intend to investigate war crimes by both sides in the Ukraine.

My point is, we are all taken for a ride on this war, and our emotions will be used for what it is worth, and even more since this is in our backyard.

 

I hope the president pull out now, regroup, and let things settle a bit, and then solve this with sanctions and politically. It will save many lives.