Thailand does the math: Two are dying per hour on the Thai roads

[mikebell]

Been here 17+ years.  Nothing will change till Thailand gets a police force.  A friend has been visited by police four times because he reversed into a neighbour's gate.  He is being taken to court because the neighbour is connected. He has spent countless hours paying bail twice & sitting waiting in Sattahip Den of Iniquity + thousands of baht on lawyers.

[chrissables]

19 hours ago, apetryxx said:

I have never seen anything more inane than folks roaring around on a scooter with a face mask and no helmet.

How do you roar around on a scooter?

[VocalNeal]

9 hours ago, natway09 said:

The manufacturer has payed no interest in spending an extra 9% to make the vehicle safer,  for example putting disc brakes on the rear would be a start.

Pickups have brakes that will stop a truck fully loaded. The problem arises when they are unloaded. No weight and cheap tires.

[VocalNeal]

10 hours ago, Molly Malone said:

Thais think putting a blinker on means they can CUT IN FRONT of anyone no matter what the speed, every Thai has the right of way = WRONG!

I think it is called merging.???? In Bangkok, anyway, it works quite well. Everyone merges and mostly everyone is happy

Edited March 27, 2022 by VocalNeal

[KhunBENQ]

Record low numbers published for yesterday.

15 deaths (12 on motorcycle).

Must be a lack of record keeping.

[Surasak]

21 hours ago, khunpa said:

It’s all about “Common sense”…

 

“Common sense” would mean police doing their job to reduce the accidents.

 

“Common sense” would require proper training before receiving a drivers license.

 

“Common sense” would remind drivers to not drive too fast and too close to other.

 

”Common sense” would mean no need for lucky amulets and car-blessings.

 

With “Common sense” drivers would blame themselves and not the brakes, when accidents happen.

 

There is no “common sense” here and there will never be.

 

 

There is a possibility of common sense arriving, but it will only be when kids a taught how to think and not what to think. It wont happen in my life time, but eventually Thailand will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 23rd century. Or maybe even later.

[actonion]

22 hours ago, biggles45 said:

This is not news, just a rehash of an ongoing problem. As long as you have a police force that is very lazy and corrupt with no desire to actually improve the road toll situation, nothing is ever going to change

You can pass as many laws as you like, but without enforcement and penalties it's a waste of time. 

  The  law enforcers  here drive the same as the rest of these nutters,  & they see no wrong in the way they drive, and u surely cannot tell them  because being Thai they know it all already

[Chongalulu]

3 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

Why the dark tinted car windows?

It's not primarily about the sun/heat.

Part of the tawdry,tacky non functional accouterments (fake exhausts,bonnet air intakes etc.) adorning so many 'chavvy' vehicles illustrating a low level mentality. 

[garyk]

i drove there for 10 years, You learn pretty quick when the best times to drive and when to hide.

[Chongalulu]

16 hours ago, Thunglom said:

Sorry but I have experience of driving all over the world and extensively in Thailand - more than most Thai people and I don't find the driving to be particularly bad - I believe the bad driving is a result of the government not introducing a proper road safety system for twenty yeas whilst having the 10th biggest motor industry in the world.

what people don't understand is that ALL countries have about the same number of bad drivers but their road systems and environment PREVENTS idiots form being idiots.the side-effect of this is that people who come from "safer" countries mistakenly think that they ae good drivers when the reality is that they have been cosseted by their system back home and are unable to adapt to or make sense of driving over here.

What we are dealing with is perception over reality.

 

Most foreign drivers know nothing about Road Safey - they think because they have operated motor vehicles for several years they are some kind of "expert' which they are not - and if you read most of the posts on this thread you will seethe hardly anyone has taken time to consider firstly what road safety is and secondly that they are actually part of the equation.

In reality did you know that Thailand has the same number of collisions as the UK? - so if the is the case, how come so many more die here and how come expats think they see more accidents? In fact it is the "md" drivers that chase te most accidents, it is the smug, confident ones that succumb to human error that are the problem for 93% of all crashes. the ones who look down to tune the radio, light a cigarette - think it's OK just to check te phone, don't look at the road surface etc etc.

 

 

Sorry,but as you mentioned the UK ,the statistics completely undermine your argument. For a similar size population UK has around 1750 deaths per year ,Thailand 25,000 ! That huge difference can’t be explained away by the theories you expound (including 2 wheel vehicle usage). 'Number of collisions' ?? Where are you getting that from and particularly in Thailand how accurate do you think reporting is ? Seeing the commonplace atrocious behavior of drivers here vs UK is reasonable anecdotal evidence that drivers themselves are the main problem . Compare the testing regime and penalties for transgressions of each country and the difficulties to even obtain a licence for further evidence 

[Howiehotspur]

We lost my wife’s Mum 2 years ago lived in Krasang .. motorcycle accident , but said she would have survived if she had worn a helmet . I remember asking my missus after the funeral etc .. “ I’ve never even seen anyone wear a helmet up here , ever ! “ .. my wife replied “ well it’s not that busy as it is in the city is it “ ????.. she then said nobody buys them anyway , infact I don’t think they sell them  , in her family they have 5 bikes … no helmets and never have had 

[vandeventer]

22 hours ago, khunpa said:

It’s all about “Common sense”…

 

“Common sense” would mean police doing their job to reduce the accidents.

 

“Common sense” would require proper training before receiving a drivers license.

 

“Common sense” would remind drivers to not drive too fast and too close to other.

 

”Common sense” would mean no need for lucky amulets and car-blessings.

 

With “Common sense” drivers would blame themselves and not the brakes, when accidents happen.

 

There is no “common sense” here and there will never be.

 

 

I would disagree with a few Common Sense rules. When buying a second hand car remove all amulets from the the car as they may be bad for you. Secondly it's not the fast driver that causes most accidents it's the slow ones that everyone is trying to pass.  They need to post a maximum and a minimum speed to travel at.

[Zack61]

22 hours ago, biggles45 said:

This is not news, just a rehash of an ongoing problem. As long as you have a police force that is very lazy and corrupt with no desire to actually improve the road toll situation, nothing is ever going to change

You can pass as many laws as you like, but without enforcement and penalties it's a waste of time. 

Don’t you mean police farce?

[Will B Good]

2 minutes ago, Howiehotspur said:

We lost my wife’s Mum 2 years ago lived in Krasang .. motorcycle accident , but said she would have survived if she had worn a helmet . I remember asking my missus after the funeral etc .. “ I’ve never even seen anyone wear a helmet up here , ever ! “ .. my wife replied “ well it’s not that busy as it is in the city is it “ ????.. she then said nobody buys them anyway , infact I don’t think they sell them  , in her family they have 5 bikes … no helmets and never have had 

Kind of similar situation re: Thai thinking.

 

In-laws got a puppy.....I said to the wife you need to get it wormed and control what it eats. Dead in three months.

 

In-laws got another puppy.......I said to the wife you need to get it wormed and control what it eats. Dead in four weeks.

 

In-laws got third puppy........I said to the wife you need to get it wormed and control what it eats.......she just gave me a dirty look like I haven't a clue what i am talking about..

[Road Warrior]

Thai brains can not accept common sense on the roads with bike or cars  driving tests so called is not the answer , AS  IN civilized counties  hit them in the pocket .MEANS more police on the roads ,( position policeman at ALL traffic lights with high speed bike /car to catch the offenders  and big fines not 200 bht -talk in 1000s bht  if cant pay prison.  TRY THAT ????  

[TropicalGuy]

15 hours ago, Thunglom said:

False perceptions....

Politician’s syllogism: - All cats have four legs. My dog has four legs. Therefore, my dog is a cat.

 

 

False perceptions

 

When it comes to road safety – “seeing is believing” is most definitely NOT the case…..

 

The 2 main enemies of clear thinking on road safety are confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance…… It is important to overcome them….

 

confirmation bias (“confirmation bias,” the tendency people have to embrace information that supports their beliefs and reject information that contradicts them). E.G – if you decide that drivers of pickup trucks are very rude, very time you see one doing a manoeuvre you don’t approve of you say “look, see what I mean” – but subconsciously you ignore the other vehicles and drivers.

 

cognitive dissonance (Sometimes learning new information can lead to feelings of cognitive dissonance. For example, if you engage in a behaviour that you later learn is harmful, it can lead to feelings of discomfort. People sometimes deal with this either by finding ways to justify their behaviours or findings ways to discredit or ignore new information.)  E.g. -  when you find out that statistically your belief about Fortuner drivers isn’t true - you ignore the evidence because it conflicts with your long-term unfounded belief…. and continue to pick out Fortuners as culprits. A common symptom of cognitive dissonance is asking for citations (sealioning) rather than accepting the point or finding a proper reasoned argument against it.

 

Overcoming these prejudices helps to get a realistic appreciation of the reality of the situation in Thailand and then to assess one’s personal driving skills. 

 

A key to understanding road safety, can be to drop the concept of “bad drivers” altogether and consider it in terms of human error within a Road Safety environment; a holistic approach to Thailand’s road environment … and then consider how YOU fit into this either as a road user or even just a bystander. It can require a bit of soul-searching but in the end might make Thai roads safer for yourself and others.

 

Perceptions in Thailand seem very skewed as is reflected in government policies and most comments you see in the media – whether the main news or social.

 

Most of the advice you see on driving in Thailand seems to be based purely on the “blame game” aimed at “other” (Thai) drivers and nape-of-the-neck dictums from politicians trying to look as if they are doing something or trying to score brownie-points with the public.

 

This has long been a discredited view in road safety science.

 

Presumptions and prejudices: -  Comments on road safety in Thailand are mostly just derogatory. Rather than any critical thinking or research, people simply use either anecdotal evidence or personal observation – false (or politician’s) syllogisms[1] that don’t make for a well thought out, sound argument. 

 

Most of this advice I’d suggest is ill considered and at times downright wrong. Add to this a lack of driving experience by those handing out advice or any real knowledge of the factors contributing to road safety in Thailand (or anywhere else in the world for that matter) and the result is not so much opinions as assumptions and wildly inaccurate assertions. Just because someone can operate a car, doesn’t make them an “expert” on road safety.

      

Many in discussions ignore the issues of road safety and focus on what they see as “bad driving”, and then conclude that driving in Thailand is that it is a prohibitively perilous thing to do and that it is largely down to Thai people being useless drivers.  In fact, Thais have grown up in the Thai driving environment and are much more accustomed to it than most foreigners. They have the skills for survival. It is often foreigners who fail to adapt to a new driving environment and try to stick to the old rules and conventions that dominated in their old home country…. they do so at their peril. Driving by the rules – your rules – is just not the right way to drive in Thailand. They are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

 

In fact, statistically speaking driving in a 4 wheeled private vehicle is a lot safer than people would have you believe. In reality, the road death rate for these in Thailand is just about the same as the USA.

 

Most of the opinions that appear on chat web sites etc., are by people who issue a series of tirades and vitriol against Thai drivers. Virtually every opinion is thoroughly negative. 

Many posters also suggest that because the roads are too dangerous to consider driving oneself, a driver or public transport was preferable. This is of course highly illogical as they have already accused Thai drivers of being the “worst in the world” so why would they let one drive them? On one hand they admit they aren’t competent enough to drive on Thai roads and then say all Thai drivers are dangerous and no good at driving???

 

What is more important is how competent a driver YOU are and how good is your ability to understand, acclimatise and adapt to the driving environment in Thailand. My experience is that many foreigners, even those who have lived in the country for a long time fail to grasp these concepts.

 

 “Thai roads are dangerous and all Thai drivers are reckless morons”. – so are you!

 

Just take a moment to consider how people who say things like this see themselves and other road users. They have pre-set ideas about how others should or do drive and when they see a mistake of any kind it just serves to confirm this, but they are oblivious to any evidence to the contrary – this is a combination of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance combined with a Dunning Kruger[2] effect appreciation of their own driving skills.

 

How people form their opinions on driving can often be quite tenuous. Yet they then talk as if they are authorities on the subject without any logic, reason or evidence. – Why is this? –  when it comes to some subjects, people quite unreasonably judge themselves to be “experts” – 

 

Healthcare, Teaching and education and Road safety seem to be prime examples – 

·      Because they went into hospital, they consider themselves to be an expert on whatever illness they had

·      because they went to school, they are “experts” on education

·      because they can drive a car, they are “experts” on road safety

And everyone seems to think they are superb drivers and better than all those other road users to boot.

 

Expert - a word used by people to attack the messenger rather than the message. People without any argument seem to believe that they can discredit anyone who says something they don’t agree with  or didn’t know, by suggesting they aren’t an “expert” – whatever that may be.

 

People accept archaic ideas on road safety without question but things have moved on and this is reflected in the dramatic drop in traffic injury figures of countries that have adopted the “new” thinking. The problem is that if someone is told something they haven’t thought about before and it is backed it up with logic and reason, cognitive dissonance kicks in and they ignore even the most powerful evidence.

 

In Thailand, the default position for foreigners is to turn on the vitriol when talking about their fellow road users... they automatically exclude themselves from the equation and whilst implying that their driving skills are far superior to those of any Thai people.

 

It also seems that many foreigners who don’t even drive themselves like to get in on the act and get just as vociferous. However, it does underline that road safety isn’t just about driving, it’s about ROAD USERS -and that includes everyone on or near the road, pedestrians, stall holders, elephants, gammons etc etc…….

 

On the whole though, if we were to believe everything the non-Thais posting on chat forums said, we wold have to conclude that almost everyone is better than the average driver! Which is mathematically impossible...

 

Detailed descriptions of how “bad” other motorists driving is are seldom helpful. Without analysis, all they do is reinforce those people’s prejudices about driving in Thailand - i.e. blaming people or even the entire nation, rather than considering the underlying causes. There is also the temptation to attempt simplify matters by looking for one single solution for the whole problem; a sort of road safety panacea.

 

A few common truths about how motorists see themselves versus other road users

 

“Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?” - George Carlin

 

“The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we all believe that we are above-average drivers.” – Dave Barry

 

“The survey by Michelin North America found that the majority of Americans don’t trust other drivers and say they witness unsafe driving behavior regularly. At the same time, an overwhelming majority - 81 percent - remain supremely confident in their own abilities behind the wheel.” [3]

 

These were some observations resulting from research done by the Centre for Transport and Society - UK....

 

The public know that driver behaviour is a major contributory factor in the vast majority of road accidents... (Cauzard, 2003) - 

But there is a consistent view that OTHERS drive in a riskier manner than individuals themselves do  - (King and Parker, 2008)

It’s not just driving – older children and adolescents think they have good attitude and skills towards road safety but believe that others especially those in their peer group do not - (Tolmie. 2006).

 

Individuals do not believe they are dangerous on the roads but at the same time fervently believe others are.

• I am not likely to be responsible for an accident; others are likely to be responsible. Therefore, little I can do.

• Hence, less likely to need to “plan to avoid them”

• Campaigns aimed at dangerous driving are for “other” drivers not themselves. 

• Such campaigns re-emphasise this difference (2CV, 2008 and Flaming Research, 2008)

• The third-person effect (Davison, 1983). 

• High support for enforcement, engineering solutions and education 

• But not for themselves - for other people.

 

However, the reality can be a long way from these benighted perspectives.

 

 

 

---

[1]Politician’s syllogism: - All cats have four legs. My dog has four legs. Therefore, my dog is a cat.

 

[2] Dunning-Kruger effect,  .. a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.  - https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect

 

[3] https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/23/george-carlin-was-right-other-drivers-are-idiots-and-maniacs.html

Excellent. Cognitive & Bias& Error & Prejudice statements very good. ????Has altered my intellectual Driving basis which was lacking in favour of the dreaded Experience. Well Done. 
YOU are the Expert here.????

[TropicalGuy]

36 minutes ago, Road Warrior said:

Thai brains can not accept common sense on the roads with bike or cars  driving tests so called is not the answer , AS  IN civilized counties  hit them in the pocket .MEANS more police on the roads ,( position policeman at ALL traffic lights with high speed bike /car to catch the offenders  and big fines not 200 bht -talk in 1000s bht  if cant pay prison.  TRY THAT ????  

Try telling that to Thai Doctors, Dentists & Pilots. Fines just don’t work here as not tied to proper Enforcement system involving losing License , sky high Insurance,Jail etc.

culture here at working class level is just not compatible with any Safety System. 

[TropicalGuy]

1 hour ago, nchuckle said:

Sorry,but as you mentioned the UK ,the statistics completely undermine your argument. For a similar size population UK has around 1750 deaths per year ,Thailand 25,000 ! That huge difference can’t be explained away by the theories you expound (including 2 wheel vehicle usage). 'Number of collisions' ?? Where are you getting that from and particularly in Thailand how accurate do you think reporting is ? Seeing the commonplace atrocious behavior of drivers here vs UK is reasonable anecdotal evidence that drivers themselves are the main problem . Compare the testing regime and penalties for transgressions of each country and the difficulties to even obtain a licence for further evidence 

Yes. Re. Similar Collision rates ; if true, U.K. has Very Few Motorbikes Involved, Much Lower Collision Speeds & Almost Total Seatbelt Use.

Result: 1700 deaths vs 24,000 here.☹️

Complete Lack of Proper Driver Safety Mindset & Training so Performance, means yes Human Error (Drivers) the main culprit with Daft Pedestrians & Dreaded Road U Turns compounding ! ????
 

Anecdotally, if you were to observe a major junction for 12 hours here you would I submit certainly witness 8-10 times the accidents at similar junction in U.K. where Codes & Rules complied 99% vs. say 5% here!????

[TropicalGuy]

2 hours ago, Surasak said:

There is a possibility of common sense arriving, but it will only be when kids a taught how to think and not what to think. It wont happen in my life time, but eventually Thailand will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 23rd century. Or maybe even later.

Intelligence Levels broadly same as West. Just “ used differently” ( don’t invent or excel at anything).  Culture here not compatible with Modernity & Safety. Fatalistic Passive Selfish. Casual. 
 

Now they ARE Modern when Western Standards Required like Doctors, Dentists, Pilots AND such Quals completed in the West away from Culture here. 1% only though.

[TropicalGuy]

3 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Pickups have brakes that will stop a truck fully loaded. The problem arises when they are unloaded. No weight and cheap tires.

Surely a loaded truck takes more brake power and distance to stop.

[TropicalGuy]

10 hours ago, Thunglom said:

Like talking to a 10 year old

These Systems simply won’t work if they are just superimposed here. Blindingly Obvious. Like giving a regular person a Spaceship Manual and saying Fly That ! 
 

Im actually trying to get with your system case here … then you come with the insults   without breaking down my point, indicating we are somehow fundamentally at cross purposes. 
 

So just tell us HOW and WHY the Safe System would overcome Culture here & actually work! 

[TropicalGuy]

9 hours ago, impulse said:

The problem with that take is that the only solution for the next century is to throw up your hands and surrender.  I'd love to see Thailand spend a few million baht to send some traffic cops to, for example, California to ride around with CHP cops or Texas DPS troopers.  Kind of a "train the trainer" program.   A few months of rigorous ticket writing could easily pay out the trip.

 

But of course, that's just a boondoggle unless they provide radar and chase cars.

 

Heck, even some dubbed episodes of CHiPs would be educational.

That’s called a “ sticking plaster” solution. Police are not Root Cause.

[TropicalGuy]

18 hours ago, Thunglom said:

Sorry but I have experience of driving all over the world and extensively in Thailand - more than most Thai people and I don't find the driving to be particularly bad - I believe the bad driving is a result of the government not introducing a proper road safety system for twenty yeas whilst having the 10th biggest motor industry in the world.

what people don't understand is that ALL countries have about the same number of bad drivers but their road systems and environment PREVENTS idiots form being idiots.the side-effect of this is that people who come from "safer" countries mistakenly think that they ae good drivers when the reality is that they have been cosseted by their system back home and are unable to adapt to or make sense of driving over here.

What we are dealing with is perception over reality.

 

Most foreign drivers know nothing about Road Safey - they think because they have operated motor vehicles for several years they are some kind of "expert' which they are not - and if you read most of the posts on this thread you will seethe hardly anyone has taken time to consider firstly what road safety is and secondly that they are actually part of the equation.

In reality did you know that Thailand has the same number of collisions as the UK? - so if the is the case, how come so many more die here and how come expats think they see more accidents? In fact it is the "md" drivers that chase te most accidents, it is the smug, confident ones that succumb to human error that are the problem for 93% of all crashes. the ones who look down to tune the radio, light a cigarette - think it's OK just to check te phone, don't look at the road surface etc etc.

 

 

Good Work. Where do you see the Driving Schemes by U.K. Institute of Advanced Motorists ( IAM) & UK Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents ( RoSPA) .
 

RoSPA the world gold standard with only 5% of already top class drivers attempting the course & exam getting their GOLD award. 

[Ralf001]

4 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

The problem arises when they are unloaded.

Load sensing proportioning valve.

[Will B Good]

4 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Pickups have brakes that will stop a truck fully loaded. The problem arises when they are unloaded. No weight and cheap tires.

Surely less mass (not weight), means less kinetic energy, so much quicker to stop an unloaded truck............the brakes sole purpose is to transfer KE into thermal energy.

 

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

 

On 3/26/2022 at 1:57 PM, RichardColeman said:

Probably why a Thai driving licence is worth Jack S outside Thailand

A Thai license should not be recognised anywhere in the West.

 

Minimum amount of lessons, full test (theory and practical) with assessor, and onto provisional plates for a period should be required for all Thais wanting to drive.

[Mr Meeseeks]

4 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Pickups have brakes that will stop a truck fully loaded. The problem arises when they are unloaded. No weight and cheap tires.

Most pickups have drum brakes on the rear which are inadequate at speed.

 

They are not meant to be going fast, as you state they are for moving goods around.

[Mansell]

Vietnam made helmets mandatory and only two on a motorbike, and it works because the enforced it. The biggest issue here is the motorbike riders, they seem completely oblivious to anybody else on the road. The rule of the road in Thailand is “Its your job to avoid me.” And that pretty well sums it up.

The fine for no helmet should be 2,500 baht, the 500 baht is for the policeman. This would change the country in a month. Most people cannot afford a fine of this amount, so they’ll buy and wear a helmet. And the police would love upping their income, so they’ll be enforcing it with alacrity and happy doing it. Drastic actions are needed to get the stupid to comply.

if the Vietnamese can be brought into line, then Thailand can do the same. After that stopping crazy motorbike riders zipping through traffic by hitting them with large fines needs to be enforced. 

[Mr Meeseeks]

3 hours ago, actonion said:

  The  law enforcers  here drive the same as the rest of these nutters,  & they see no wrong in the way they drive, and u surely cannot tell them  because being Thai they know it all already

Correct, the whole system is broken from top to bottom and they are beyond being able to fix it now imo.

 

They don't have the ability or the courage to tackle the problem. 

 

I was in Bangkok last night on the expressways for the first time in a couple of years and I was actually shocked by the amount of 'expensive' fast cars weaving in and out of traffic. It was like a racetrack, endangering normal motorists like myself who were plodding along below the speed limits.

 

[MyFriend You]

On 3/25/2022 at 8:51 PM, JimmyJ said:

Vietnam impressed me with the high % of people wearing helmets.

Not counting young passengers below driving age, I would estimate 98% - 99%.

 

I mentioned this to a local, who told me that when it became law there was not a lot of compliance, but then they began fining offenders...

and confiscating motorcycles until fines are paid, the Police have parking lots full of them i- fines not paid in 120 days get auctioned.