Filial Piety - What's wrong with it?

[2009]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:30 PM, Leaver said:

 

When your money runs out, so does the Thai family. 

EXACTLY

 

You won't find ANY loyalty in this country.

 

Thai whole "Thai family" is just smoke n mirrors. They are abusive and neglectful very often (more than western family).

 

And you end up with one cabbage-brained matriarch cracking the whip on everyone.

[wwest5829]

9 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Ok, so there are disaster stories, I think we can all agree on that.

 

How many of the guys in the disaster stories would have said no way is their girl on the scam, because she is different, yet, they got fleeced?

 

How many are reading this thread right now thinking their girl is different, but they are actually being fleeced and don't even know it yet?  Any advice for those guys? 

Yes, we all do see the disaster stories, depending on what you are reading and who you are listening. While citing the Thai females involved (remember I am in no way denying bad characters here), I am not seeing here any thoughts on the foreign males. They are all pure as the new driven snow or did all of us show up bringing our own baggage. My advice as stated before is “steady as she goes”, keep your wits about you and that includes controlling your own financial stability. That would be the same thought I have based on western male-female relationships. Again, it is only the stories we hear but there seem to be not a small number of western males here divorced from western females who had their economic well-being halved and have sought retirement in a lower cost countries (adding, with poorer, attractive females who might well be attracted to an aging, western male if he has a steady source of income).

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

Yes, we all do see the disaster stories, depending on what you are reading and who you are listening. While citing the Thai females involved (remember I am in no way denying bad characters here), I am not seeing here any thoughts on the foreign males. They are all pure as the new driven snow or did all of us show up bringing our own baggage. My advice as stated before is “steady as she goes”, keep your wits about you and that includes controlling your own financial stability. That would be the same thought I have based on western male-female relationships. Again, it is only the stories we hear but there seem to be not a small number of western males here divorced from western females who had their economic well-being halved and have sought retirement in a lower cost countries (adding, with poorer, attractive females who might well be attracted to an aging, western male if he has a steady source of income).

Hit the nail on the head, I don't mind admitting I came here with some baggage a succession of mostly nice women here helped me shed. Bless them all.

The erosion of male assets and rights in Western countries has been a process stretching over decades of jurisprudence. Fortunately, Thai law is still behind the PC curve, so that only assets accumulated during a marriage are divided equally, and defacto relationships are not recognized. If they ever become so, I am out of here.

Permit me to doubt a relationship with a woman 23 years younger than me in Australia would ever get past the realm of fantasy. Here, it is commonplace.

 

 

[wwest5829]

31 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Hit the nail on the head, I don't mind admitting I came here with some baggage a succession of mostly nice women here helped me shed. Bless them all.

The erosion of male assets and rights in Western countries has been a process stretching over decades of jurisprudence. Fortunately, Thai law is still behind the PC curve, so that only assets accumulated during a marriage are divided equally, and defacto relationships are not recognized. If they ever become so, I am out of here.

Permit me to doubt a relationship with a woman 23 years younger than me in Australia would ever get past the realm of fantasy. Here, it is commonplace.

 

 

Yep! Been there, done that and the T-<deleted> was a bit unraveled with the divorce. Now, … it is so sad … married to a cute Thai girl 26 years my junior … don’t worry I am ancient, that means she is pushing 50.

[Gecko123]

The OP is probably one of the most heartfelt and eloquent testimonials about life with an extended Thai family that I have read on this forum. Even gave me a little tear in the corner of my eye. Nevertheless, I remain steadfastly in the "proceed with caution" camp when it comes to lavishing financial gifts on an extended Thai family in exchange for an implicit promise that you will be given compassionate care at the end of your life. Here's why.

 

When you enter into an agreement with someone, there are three types of consideration: you pay after the other party delivers; you pay at the same time the other party delivers, or you pay before the other party delivers. Long ago I came to the conclusion that paying in advance is risky business in Thailand.

 

Think about it: what stops the other party from failing to perform after they have already received their end of the bargain? Fear of legal repercussions? Fear of social disapproval?

 

The importance of carrying through with your end of the bargain isn't something innate; it's something learned through moral and ethical training. Whether learned from parents, at school or temple, or from watching "Faa mii taa" (The Sky has Eyes) on Saturday afternoons, moral and ethical training is not highly developed in Thailand, IMHO.

 

As far as legal recourse, the unwritten and implicit understanding the OP is describing isn't legally enforceable, so the courts will be of no use.

 

There's also an issue about you being non-Thai. There is a distinction between Thai and non-Thai in Thai culture. If you think you've transcended that distinction with the extended family, I think you might be kidding yourself. You want to tell me how well you're integrated into your Thai extended family, go ahead, but I have not observed this level of integration with virtually any foreigner-Thai couples I've observed over the years. Yes, there's the proverbial saintly MIL, and, yes, the toddlers and young children can be adorable, but what about the wife's siblings, the 20-30-something nephew-in-laws, the brother-in-laws, the FIL?

 

You're trying to tell me the extended family's all gonna pitch in to share in your at-home elder care? If you say so, but, as the article which the OP referenced pointed out, many elderly blood relatives are having to fend for themselves because of the breakdown of the extended nuclear family in Thailand. Surely you realize you're lower on the pecking order than most of the other blood relatives? And what happens if your spouse predeceases you?

 

My point is that if you've invested a substantial portion of your assets in bestowing gifts on the extended family based on vague promises and assurances that you will be cared for when you're no longer able to do so yourself, you could find yourself in a pretty dire situation. I also think the OP (and others) may want to take a long hard look at what kind of care they would be likely to receive from the extended family in the event of a protracted or difficult decline in health.

 

 

[BangkokReady]

On 4/16/2022 at 7:57 AM, BritManToo said:

American guy in a bar comes over to me and boasts how his wife is different, faithful, loyal, loving ..... I'd banged her the night before, at the time she was pointing to her phone behind his back.

French guy in a different bar crying into his beer, blubbing about his wife sleeping with other men all the time, showed me her photo ...... yep, I'd had her too.

I felt bad for both those guys.

Where do you find these women and how are their men not able to prevent them from doing this?

[jerrymahoney]

From The Atlanta Rhythm Section's Cocaine Charlie:

On the south side of Atlanta
In the Escapade Motel
A sweet young thing from Sandy Springs
Was under Charlie's spell
He never heard the pistol cock
He was caught up in romance
A jealous boyfriend shot him dead
He never had a chance

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFkN_LF0xcM

 

[NanLaew]

15 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

If they were to comment that I lacked experience in marriage here, I would agree, but I disagree that my comments are off topic, just because I am single. 

I agree with you.

 

Your comments are WAY off topic because you choose to be single.

 

 

[Leaver]

On 4/16/2022 at 6:48 PM, 1FinickyOne said:

the larger issue is whether or not she is someone I want to share with... It is my decision. 

 

Once again, thanks for your honest post.

 

The general theme to my posts on this thread is not about sharing of the wealth, it's about a foreigner having their wealth taken from them, not at gun point, but by being manipulated and emotionally blackmailed into handing it over. 

 

You use the word "share" which is fine.  I have no problem with that.  It's the fools that hand it all over, whether that be in the form of property, a business, vehicles, farms etc, and then expect the Thai's to share their new found wealth with with them.  A ridiculous situation that many foreigners here seem to get themselves into. 

 

On 4/16/2022 at 6:48 PM, 1FinickyOne said:

Well, that is something I would never do and I have always kept enuf for myself that I can walk away unharmed. Sounds pretty short sighted and not too bright but they can do what they want, not my business. I assume someone who has made up their mind to do something like that is not going to seek out my advice nor listen to it. 

 

These are the fools I am alluding to, not people such as yourself.

 

On 4/16/2022 at 6:48 PM, 1FinickyOne said:

Why would the Thai govt have a need to share or make a law for my benefit? I am a guest here. I am happy they let me stay so easily. If I own land in my own country they are going to tax it to death. I don't really get this type of thinking?? Maybe you come from some sort of nanny state?? Any land I buy here is in my Thai wife's name. It is a gift to her so that she will feel more secure. My family are people, they have nothing to do with making laws.

 

Compared to Thailand, I guess we all come from a nanny state, but my home country allows foreigners to own property, Thailand doesn't.  It's not about Thailand making laws to suit foreigners, it's about Thailand having 2022 laws that give security for foreigners that invest in property here. 

 

Such laws would also have to come with a realistic pathway to permanent residency, because there is no point allowing foreigners to own property, without giving them the "right" to live in it.   Notice I said "right" as opposed to "permission" which is all a visa / extension is.

 

There are correct ways for foreigners to have the use of property in Thailand with some security, but many take short cuts and put the property in the girlfriend / wife's name.  If Thai law allowed it, as many other countries do, the foreigner would just buy the property in his name.  Yes, rocket science.  ????  

 

On 4/16/2022 at 6:48 PM, 1FinickyOne said:

Could my wife fall out of love w/me and ask me to leave - of course.

 

Or, the money stops and you are asked to leave.  Everything is measured in baht in Thailand, even love. 

 

On 4/16/2022 at 6:48 PM, 1FinickyOne said:

Do you think i am not smart enuf to consider all possibilities? I have always told her if she wants me to go, give me 24 hours and I am gone. I would surely still want to give her money. I can't imagine not wanting her to have a good life. 

 

No need to take anything personally.  I am posting "in general."

 

Interesting you would still give her money if she finished the relationship, but each to their own.

 

On 4/16/2022 at 6:48 PM, 1FinickyOne said:

understand that I am not the same as most people. I know that love changes, life changes and I try and allow for most possibilities and an ability to go with the flow. What I have seen is that people who live with their wife's family are often different from the Pattaya crowd. They do it because they know, as I did, that their wife will be very very happy if they can live w/their family and by living in a village, they are the type of people who put their wives happiness ahead of their own. Can you imagine doing that? And probably most ladies appreciate a guy like that. I lived for near 20 years in the village in a remote province and the few farang there, seem to have good relationships w/their wives and families... not the same as Pattaya, I assume? And i enjoyed living there, learning about the culture and language, raising a now 17 yr old niece. 

 

I am single, obviously, by choice.  Should I enter into a relationship with a Thai women in the future, fair chance she will be considerably younger than me, although, not ridiculously younger than me. 

 

I wouldn't think it unreasonable for her to live away from the village for some years, knowing that when I pass she will be financially set for an early retirement back to the village.  For me, ANY Thai girl who gave me the ultimatum "move to the village or we are over" I  would say, "it's been nice knowing you." That's just me, and I don't think I'm being unreasonable, but that can be debated.  Of interest, I wonder if a Thai girl would even dare put that ultimatum to a Thai guy, but that's for another thread. 

 

How many foreigners move to the village, not out of love, but because they have already put a lot of their life savings into the relationship, and now have no choice?

 

On 4/16/2022 at 6:48 PM, 1FinickyOne said:

As to the dad letting me make a life and death medical decision for him - he does not know about medical issues and trusts my judgment and that I am going to be more knowledgable than he and will act with love and his best interest at heart. It was not a responsibility I wanted, there were no choices that did not include a chance of death. 

 

Ok, I was under the impression it was a life or death decision for him. 

[Leaver]

On 4/16/2022 at 11:19 PM, BritManToo said:

My Brit wife got my Brit house when she divorced me in the UK, the laws aren't any different back home in the west (just the wording). At least here we know the house will be theirs (if we buy one), and they don't get alimony, child maintenance and your pension.

 

Courts in western countries tend to favor the wife when children are involved.  No argument from me about that.  If children were not involved, things are a little fairer.  You don't see a lot of retirees with new babies here.  It does happen, but is not the majority. 

 

When I divorced, I wanted my children to stay in the family home.  We had two properties, so I took the other one, and the debt attached to it.   

 

I simply pointed out to the other member who used the word "share" that when it came to property ownership in Thailand by foreigners, you can't really "share" living in the property because the Thai law doesn't truly allow a foreigner to own land here. 

 

Various methods of securing the use of the property is for another thread, but for me, just putting it in the girlfriend / wife's name is not an option.  I adhere to the "I wouldn't do it in my home country, so why do it in Thailand" ideology.  I am not criticizing members who do so, but a property is a major purchase and for many, has been the start of their downfall in Thailand. 

 

[BritManToo]

17 minutes ago, Leaver said:

Compared to Thailand, I guess we all come from a nanny state, but my home country allows foreigners to own property, Thailand doesn't.  It's not about Thailand making laws to suit foreigners, it's about Thailand having 2022 laws that give security for foreigners that invest in property here. 

As far as I can see the property laws in Thailand aren't all that different to the property laws in the west. As a male if you marry or cohabit in the west, she owns at least 50% of the property if not all.

[Leaver]

On 4/16/2022 at 11:24 PM, Lacessit said:

It is for some, there are two conclusions I can make:

1/ They are social animals, and really enjoy the company of their own kind.

2/ They are borderline alcoholics, and want to get on with it.

The two propositions are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

Both end up a nightmare, but they will tell you how profitable their bar is, that's why it's on the market.   ???? 

[Leaver]

On 4/16/2022 at 11:39 PM, Lacessit said:

IMO foreigners get fleeced here because they are thinking with the small head instead of the big one. If anything, loneliness IMO is a secondary issue.

 

Interesting comment.

 

We all know in Thailand sex is freely available for a small price.  Why would one allow the small head to get wrapped up in just one girl here, to the point of handing over their live savings? 

 

I would have thought their heart is with the girlfriend / wife and their small head is sneaking off for an hour when they are supposed to be watching a match with their mates.  ???? 

 

On 4/16/2022 at 11:39 PM, Lacessit said:

They bring all their assets into Thailand, which is the first step to financial disaster unless they have their BS meters switched on at maximum gain.

 

You could have the best BS meter in the world, but Thailand is still a 3rd Would Country.

 

Shifting your life savings into a 3rd World Country, and one that doesn't even offer a realistic pathway to permanent residency, is setting up for financial disaster.  I would never do it.

[Leaver]

On 4/17/2022 at 12:23 AM, Gottfrid said:

Short answer. No, I have no compassion neither for the the people that comes here, and like you chose to say "get fleeced". Nor do I have any compassion for the stupidity they bring with them, that is the real reason why they get fleeced. And, yes, I do blame the stupid foreigner that believes he is in heaven of sex, beauty and affordability at the age of 60+ in a relation with a 18 - 29 year old girl.

It´s all summarized in two simple words: Blissful madness! The punishment for that, is going broke and asking ones friends for money to the plane ticket home to the nursing home they no longer can afford.

 

Good post, but is there any difference between the 60 year old foreigner giving, say, 20k baht a month to a 25 year old Thai girl, and a 60 year old foreigner giving 20k baht a month to a 45 year old Thai girl?

 

Does a lesser age difference create in the guy's mind that it's somehow a more genuine relationship when in both cases it's just about the 2k baht every month? 

[Leaver]

On 4/17/2022 at 12:38 AM, 2009 said:

EXACTLY

 

You won't find ANY loyalty in this country.

 

Thai whole "Thai family" is just smoke n mirrors. They are abusive and neglectful very often (more than western family).

 

And you end up with one cabbage-brained matriarch cracking the whip on everyone.

 

The funny thing is, it's the foreigner's money that keeps the cabbage brained matriarch drunk all day, in which they become even more abusing and neglectful.  ???? 

[Leaver]

On 4/17/2022 at 1:00 AM, wwest5829 said:

Yes, we all do see the disaster stories, depending on what you are reading and who you are listening. While citing the Thai females involved (remember I am in no way denying bad characters here), I am not seeing here any thoughts on the foreign males. They are all pure as the new driven snow or did all of us show up bringing our own baggage. My advice as stated before is “steady as she goes”, keep your wits about you and that includes controlling your own financial stability. That would be the same thought I have based on western male-female relationships. Again, it is only the stories we hear but there seem to be not a small number of western males here divorced from western females who had their economic well-being halved and have sought retirement in a lower cost countries (adding, with poorer, attractive females who might well be attracted to an aging, western male if he has a steady source of income).

 

There are books about it, and the internet is full of information about it, yet, they still get fleeced here. 

 

It makes me think that "ego" must play a role it it.  The "I'm too smart for it to happen to me" way of thinking.   

[Leaver]

On 4/17/2022 at 8:02 AM, NanLaew said:

I agree with you.

 

Your comments are WAY off topic because you choose to be single.

 

 

 

Wouldn't being single make me more subjective? 

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, Leaver said:

 

Wouldn't being single make me more subjective? 

You mean objective, don't you?

[Lacessit]

42 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

Interesting comment.

 

We all know in Thailand sex is freely available for a small price.  Why would one allow the small head to get wrapped up in just one girl here, to the point of handing over their live savings? 

 

I would have thought their heart is with the girlfriend / wife and their small head is sneaking off for an hour when they are supposed to be watching a match with their mates.  ???? 

IMO that is a holdover from the attributes of sexual fidelity, responsibility, and duty that are incorporated into family and education systems in the West.

 

I've said before, Thais are the most cheerfully promiscuous nationality on the planet. Every major city has brothels masquerading as karaokes, massage parlors, night clubs and bars, and the clientele is 95% Thai. Mia nois and giks are an accepted part of life. A couple of well-educated Thai guys I used to know in CM each had a stable of three or four women.

 

That promiscuity also gives rise to almost total lack of inhibition. When the average Western male, complete with inhibitions that have been drummed into him since birth, suddenly finds himself in a world of beautiful and seductive women who have no holds barred in the bedroom, it's no wonder many are like a deer in the headlights.

[wwest5829]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

 

There are books about it, and the internet is full of information about it, yet, they still get fleeced here. 

 

It makes me think that "ego" must play a role it it.  The "I'm too smart for it to happen to me" way of thinking.   

Agreed. Before retiring here, I read three dozen books addressing Thai society, Thai history, Thai culture and, yes, some fiction books about the "evening stars". My experience has been positive. When I first came I was a fat boy in the candy shop ... ha! now I am just a fat old man! But the experiences with every Thai female has been a great learning experience and they all treated me consistent with Thai culture so I knew what to expect and when it came time for, "Danger Will Robinson, Danger!!!".

[Gottfrid]

5 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Good post, but is there any difference between the 60 year old foreigner giving, say, 20k baht a month to a 25 year old Thai girl, and a 60 year old foreigner giving 20k baht a month to a 45 year old Thai girl?

 

Does a lesser age difference create in the guy's mind that it's somehow a more genuine relationship when in both cases it's just about the 2k baht every month? 

No, in reality there is no difference. You are right there. 

[Leaver]

4 hours ago, Gottfrid said:

No, in reality there is no difference. You are right there. 

 

In many cases, it's the older Thai lady that has a longer list of victims, and even at an older age, is still looking for another victim, such is her greed. 

 

Many guys are like a fly into the spider's web here. 

[NanLaew]

9 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Wouldn't being single make me more subjective? 

No. Makes you less so.

[Leaver]

13 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

No. Makes you less so.

 

How so?

[Leaver]

9 hours ago, Lacessit said:

You mean objective, don't you?

 

Could be either or, I suppose. 

[Gottfrid]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

In many cases, it's the older Thai lady that has a longer list of victims, and even at an older age, is still looking for another victim, such is her greed. 

 

Many guys are like a fly into the spider's web here. 

Now you went out in fantasy again, with the use of many, an age specification and that old Thai lady have such greed. Sound like you´ve been too burned to see reality. The alternative, is of course that you only gather information from pure losers. Guys that come to Thailand and can´t hear the warning bells and the red lights because Mr. Díckman has clouded their judgement. That is not something you can blame neither Thai girls nor Thai ladies for. It´s purely the stupid foreigners fault.

[Leaver]

59 minutes ago, Gottfrid said:

Now you went out in fantasy again, with the use of many, an age specification and that old Thai lady have such greed. Sound like you´ve been too burned to see reality. The alternative, is of course that you only gather information from pure losers. Guys that come to Thailand and can´t hear the warning bells and the red lights because Mr. Díckman has clouded their judgement. That is not something you can blame neither Thai girls nor Thai ladies for. It´s purely the stupid foreigners fault.

 

I have never had a Thai girlfriend, or Thai wife. 

 

I am here for the sun, sea, sand, seafood, suds and snatch.  I make no secret of that. 

 

I am not here to fall in love with a Thai prostitute and adopt her extended Thai family.   

 

My observations and conversations are from a diverse range of people here, including friends.  Some would be called "losers" or "Dickman" by you, but I suppose everyone is in the "winners" club until they find out their relationship was only about the money. 

 

Many professional and successful guys in their working life have come here and been conned by Thai ladies.

 

You raise the interesting point, yet again, of "blame."  As an example, do you blame Bernie Madoff for fleecing his victims, or his victims for being "stupid?"  Surely a Thai girl, with such criminal intent, must carry some blame for her "long game" con of a foreigner/s?  Why is it you solely blame the foreigners?  

 

Would you change your opinion if you came home tomorrow and found your Thai lady in bed with her "brother?"  Many say this, or similar, would never happen to them, because their girl is different, but it happens. 

 

 

[bbko]

FWIW, I've been married to my Thai wife for 15 years, NEVER has her family asked me for a single baht, in fact when I bought our home (in my wife's name) they lent me 500,000b when were were remodeling and I paid them back (the total makeover was 1.5mil and at the time I only had 1mil to spare).  The in-laws never drink alcohol, they work hard, they own several homes and large area of land up north.  I respect them and they respect me.  The aunts, uncles, and cousins have never once asked me for money, whenever I visit the clan, they feed me, give me drinks, give me (us) a place to sleep. When my son is on school break they take him in, watch over him, teach him Muay Thai, etc.

 

I'm well aware other farangs aren't so "lucky", and are in relationships where they are the walking ATM.  But I want to point out, there are many happily married farangs here with respectful in-laws, we just don't make the social media news like those that are for one reason or another in a bad relationship.

[Gottfrid]

8 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

I have never had a Thai girlfriend, or Thai wife. 

 

I am here for the sun, sea, sand, seafood, suds and snatch.  I make no secret of that. 

 

I am not here to fall in love with a Thai prostitute and adopt her extended Thai family.   

 

My observations and conversations are from a diverse range of people here, including friends.  Some would be called "losers" or "Dickman" by you, but I suppose everyone is in the "winners" club until they find out their relationship was only about the money. 

 

Many professional and successful guys in their working life have come here and been conned by Thai ladies.

 

You raise the interesting point, yet again, of "blame."  As an example, do you blame Bernie Madoff for fleecing his victims, or his victims for being "stupid?"  Surely a Thai girl, with such criminal intent, must carry some blame for her "long game" con of a foreigner/s?  Why is it you solely blame the foreigners?  

 

Would you change your opinion if you came home tomorrow and found your Thai lady in bed with her "brother?"  Many say this, or similar, would never happen to them, because their girl is different, but it happens. 

 

 

Start at the end here, where you again are using many. This time together with "it happens"??? What is it really? Is it that it happens, or is it many, as in very common? Already there you crippled your effort to sound like guys that come to Thailand fall victims to so many bad girls. We all know that it happens, but are too quick to put the blame on one part.

Let´s just put it like this. We all know that there are good people and bad people. Some people don´t go together out of different reasons. When that happens after marriage, it´s almost always in favor for the female part in every country. That´s only one reason to not look at Thailand and Thai females as they are conning you. A person know they can not own a house, yet they build. Out of convenience they put car and other valuables in the girls name.

What is it also that tells you, the people you hear talk are correct. What says that they are good people? That they talk to you every time they have 5-6 beers inside at the local corner bar? Here it can also be the man that are cheating, as you also should say you hear many talk about. It can also be that the man is not willing to pay for everything that the girl want.

In that case you did not read the signals. A big number of girls in Thailand that connects with foreigners are from poor sections of life. They are clearly showing that from start. As you talk about bar girls. If you chose one like that, you will have to know you will be the breadwinner for life. Any other thoughts are stupid.

I can not for my life understand why you are talking about falling in love with a prostitute. That is for losers and Dickmans as I tried to explain. That´s also stupid. In that case the foreigners stupidity, as the girl is seeking a better life. That´s not conning. Would you marry a girl from the Red Light district in Amsterdam?

At last, a stupid comment about finding a Thai lady in bed with her "brother". Here you make a clear example of a person spending too much time listening to stories from disengaged, broken and lost it all losers. As you say many again, that must refer to your selected group of people your are associated with. Or you just read to many stories.

In all places in the world, a person must think with the right head. If they do that, they will soon find out the truth. As for me, you don´t have to worry about any "brother". Actually she have one and also a sister, but everything is above board. That, are like thing I checked at a very early stage. At the same time I did not go to the best first bar and picked number 47 or the first girls that served me a beer in Thailand. that would also have been stupid.

[473geo]

How to be a winner 

 

In any relationship always be prepared for the fact at some stage you may move on 

 

Don't waste time and effort boring other people with endless tales of woe if it happens