Electric Vehicles in Thailand

[JBChiangRai]

23 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Right now hybrids are still the most relevant technology. EV's will not become widespread until the next generation of batteries are available. I hear they're working on a new generation of batteries that will double or triple the driving distance, and dramatically reduce the charging time. That is when EV's will become truly relevant.

 

The other issue is charging stations, Thailand is way behind the curve when it comes to charging stations and right now there are a few people that want to stop for a few hours to charge the car. The technology simply has to improve, and likely will. 

I wouldn’t classify HEV’s as EV’s unless they are PHEV’s.

 

HEV’s are ICE vehicles with some clever marketing gimmick that give some improvement in mpg around town, but none on a longer run. The consumer often has no choice between ICE or HEV.

You couldn’t be more wrong when you say Thailand is behind the curve on charging stations, we have lots of them and Thailand is one of the leading countries in the world and THE leading country in Asia.

 

Most people on a long run don’t stop for more than 30-40 minutes at a charging station. It’s a non-issue.

Edited April 18 by JBChiangRai
Spellong

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

You couldn’t be more wrong when you say Thailand is behind the curve on charging stations, we have lots of them and Thailand is one of the leading countries in the world and THE leading country in Asia.

 

Most people on a long run don’t stop for more than 30-40 minutes at a charging station. It’s a non-issue.

People really need to stop saying that, unless they want to come off as being extremely ignorant.

 

Maybe on a weekend or long weekend, to/from tourist destinations, there might be a Q.  Of course, you could have spent the 40 baht extra, and booked a time slot.   Or simply go to next CS down the road.

 

Our last O&A was on a long holiday weekend, and no Q's anywhere for us, or anyone waiting more than 5 mins for us to finish.  

Edited April 18 by KhunLA

[JBChiangRai]

17 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

The Eagerly Awaited Solid-State Battery (in 2027)

Beyond that, Toyota confirms plans to introduce solid-state batteries as soon as 2027, although we note that the date has already slipped from the 2025 that was being quoted last year. Solid-state batteries use solid rather than liquid electrolytes, allowing for a greater tolerance of high voltages and temperatures and improving energy density and reducing weight. The challenges are complexity, cost, and the difficulty in delivering long-term durability. Toyota says its first-gen solid-state packs are targeting about 520 miles of range, with a 10-minute 10-to-80 charge capability, but also says that subsequent evolution will likely move peak range up to 630 miles. That figure that would surely be enough to persuade even the most determined EV doubter that long journeys can be accomplished electrically.

 

Moving beyond lithium will be the ultimate next step. 

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45942785/toyota-future-ev-battery-plans/

I don’t believe anything Toyota say, they are behind a lot of the misinformation behind anti-EV marketing.

 

If they plan to make solid state batteries by 2027, where is the factory? Where is the lithium coming from?  I think Toyota in 2027 will be doing exactly what they are doing now, buying batteries from BYD.

 

Everything marketing related released by Toyota is basically saying don’t ever buy EV’s or buy later because something better is coming. And they are releasing marketing like this every few weeks. Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars, Hydrogen ICE, this week a Hydrogen ICE running on liquid hydrogen stored in the car at -253°C. It’s all nonsense.

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I don’t believe anything Toyota say, they are behind a lot of the misinformation behind anti-EV marketing.

 

If they plan to make solid state batteries by 2027, where is the factory? Where is the lithium coming from?  I think Toyota in 2027 will be doing exactly what they are doing now, buying batteries from BYD.

 

Everything marketing related released by Toyota is basically saying don’t ever buy EV’s or buy later because something better is coming. And they are releasing marketing like this every few weeks. Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars, Hydrogen ICE, this week a Hydrogen ICE running on liquid hydrogen stored in the car at -253°C. It’s all nonsense.

Yeah, I heard they even advertised on Fox News! 

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, I heard they even advertised on Fox News! 

I wouldn’t put it past them, maybe even Tucker Carlson is their marketing expert

[vinny41]

20 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I don’t believe anything Toyota say, they are behind a lot of the misinformation behind anti-EV marketing.

 

If they plan to make solid state batteries by 2027, where is the factory? Where is the lithium coming from?  I think Toyota in 2027 will be doing exactly what they are doing now, buying batteries from BYD.

 

Everything marketing related released by Toyota is basically saying don’t ever buy EV’s or buy later because something better is coming. And they are releasing marketing like this every few weeks. Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars, Hydrogen ICE, this week a Hydrogen ICE running on liquid hydrogen stored in the car at -253°C. It’s all nonsense.

Personally I tend to believe Toyota more than ev evangelist's

Toyota will build different vehicles that meet their customer requirements and will offer them choice of types of power source for those vehicles

Ev evangelist's don't want automotive manufacturers to offer their customers choice is EV's nothing else 

[JBChiangRai]

43 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

…..

Toyota will build different vehicles that meet their customer requirements and will offer them choice of types of power source for those vehicles

Ev evangelist's don't want automotive manufacturers to offer their customers choice is EV's nothing else 

That’s the point, Toyota can’t build EV’s competitively.

 

What do you do if you’re a legacy manufacturer losing sales to a technology you can’t compete with?

 

Have you seen the Toyota bZ4x? Have you seen the price?

[vinny41]

10 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

That’s the point, Toyota can’t build EV’s competitively.

 

What do you do if you’re a legacy manufacturer losing sales to a technology you can’t compete with?

 

Have you seen the Toyota bZ4x? Have you seen the price?

Doesn't appear to be a problem for Toyota

They have announced a change in their Forecast of Financial Results as there selling more vehicles than they expected

Net sales are expected to increase due to the depreciation of the yen beyond expectations as well as continued high levels of production and sales in the Materials Handling Equipment Segment and the Automobile Segment. All kinds of profits remain unchanged from the previous forecast reflecting the impact of engine certification issue, such as the compensation to customers and suppliers associated with the shipment suspension of engines, although the increase in net sales will contribute to the increase in profit.

https://www.toyota-industries.com/news/2024/03/29/008641/index.html

Toyota reports 20% jump in first-quarter US auto sales

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-reports-20-jump-first-quarter-us-auto-sales-2024-04-02/

[vinny41]

EV makers offer deep discounts as Thai auto market weakens

Oversupply and feeble demand hint at a coming price war

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/EV-makers-offer-deep-discounts-as-Thai-auto-market-weakens?

[JBChiangRai]

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

EV makers offer deep discounts as Thai auto market weakens

Oversupply and feeble demand hint at a coming price war

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/EV-makers-offer-deep-discounts-as-Thai-auto-market-weakens?

It’s not just EV makers, it’s across the board.

[vinny41]

19 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

It’s not just EV makers, it’s across the board.

More so with EV only manufacturers as they have limited options

MG can scale back production on EV's and change production lines to produce ICE and Hybrid

EV only manufacturers don't have than option its either reduce price or reduce sales 

[ExpatOilWorker]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

It’s not just EV makers, it’s across the board.

March was particularly brutal for Tesla in Europe 🇪🇺.  Minus 34.5% y-o-y sales.

Toyota +8.6% 🤭. 

 

[JBChiangRai]

8 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

March was particularly brutal for Tesla in Europe 🇪🇺.  Minus 34.5% y-o-y sales.

Toyota +8.6% 🤭. 

 

Interestingly, MG are up 30%, BYD yet to appear.

 

I am concerned about Chinese EV’s and these markets and USA.  
 

If they are taxed highly with tariffs then I think EV adoption will stall.  Chinese EV’s are about the same price as ICE equivalents, tax/tariff them to be the same price as non-Chinese EV’s and people won’t buy them, nobody wants to pay 50% more for their car. I certainly wouldn’t.

[vinny41]

14 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Interestingly, MG are up 30%, BYD yet to appear.

 

I am concerned about Chinese EV’s and these markets and USA.  
 

If they are taxed highly with tariffs then I think EV adoption will stall.  Chinese EV’s are about the same price as ICE equivalents, tax/tariff them to be the same price as non-Chinese EV’s and people won’t buy them, nobody wants to pay 50% more for their car. I certainly wouldn’t.

MG ZS EV in the UK prices range from £30,495-£35,495 or Thai Baht 1.4 million to 1.6 million

Byd seal UK prices range from £45,695 to £48,695 or Thai Baht B 2.1 million to B2.233 million

approx £20,000 difference for entry level Byd seal compared to UK 

import tariffs into the UK is currently 10%

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

MG ZS EV in the UK prices range from £30,495-£35,495 or Thai Baht 1.4 million to 1.6 million

Byd seal UK prices range from £45,695 to £48,695 or Thai Baht B 2.1 million to B2.233 million

approx £20,000 difference for entry level Byd seal compared to UK 

import tariffs into the UK is currently 10%

Indeed, the MG4 starts at 1.2M baht in the UK and is the 2nd most popular EV.

 

If there were no import tariff EV adoption would probably not have stalled.

[mistral53]

5 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I wouldn’t classify HEV’s as EV’s unless they are PHEV’s.

 

HEV’s are ICE vehicles with some clever marketing gimmick that give some improvement in mpg around town, but none on a longer run. The consumer often has no choice between ICE or HEV.

You couldn’t be more wrong when you say Thailand is behind the curve on charging stations, we have lots of them and Thailand is one of the leading countries in the world and THE leading country in Asia.

 

Most people on a long run don’t stop for more than 30-40 minutes at a charging station. It’s a non-issue.

I disagree - 30 - 40 minutes charging time is an issue once the novelty wears off, especially compared to a Diesel SUV that runs for 800 km and is refueled in around 5 - 7 minutes.

Just for giggles, I went downtown to check on a new 'Spark' EV charging installation advertised as 200 kW. 8 stalls, very user friendly due to the pre-paid function: plug-in, QR scan - charging starts. The battery was at 48%, max charging was 80 kW. This got to be a joke, and a bad one at that!

 

Maybe Thailand is a trail-blazer in EV charger density, but if charging speed is maxed out at such low power levels, people will not switch to BEV's! 150 kW reliably, regardless of how many stalls are occupied, and we can talk. If this is not possible, the enthusiasm for BEV's will very quickly sour for the average Joe.

[vinny41]

20 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Indeed, the MG4 starts at 1.2M baht in the UK and is the 2nd most popular EV.

 

If there were no import tariff EV adoption would probably not have stalled.

Chinese cars imported into the UK are currently subject to tariffs of 10% under World Trade Organisation rules.

Its all vehicles not just EV's

Thailand market share of imports into the EU is small at 0.7% 

If Thailand wants to export to the EU I think they will mention current Thailand import tariffs on EU cars entering Thailand of between 40% to 80%

https://www.acea.auto/figure/eu-motor-vehicle-imports-main-countries-of-origin-by-value/

Edited April 18 by vinny41
add

[JBChiangRai]

13 minutes ago, mistral53 said:

I disagree - 30 - 40 minutes charging time is an issue once the novelty wears off, especially compared to a Diesel SUV that runs for 800 km and is refueled in around 5 - 7 minutes.

Just for giggles, I went downtown to check on a new 'Spark' EV charging installation advertised as 200 kW. 8 stalls, very user friendly due to the pre-paid function: plug-in, QR scan - charging starts. The battery was at 48%, max charging was 80 kW. This got to be a joke, and a bad one at that!

 

Maybe Thailand is a trail-blazer in EV charger density, but if charging speed is maxed out at such low power levels, people will not switch to BEV's! 150 kW reliably, regardless of how many stalls are occupied, and we can talk. If this is not possible, the enthusiasm for BEV's will very quickly sour for the average Joe.

That’s a very valid point, most charging stations on the highways only have 2 stalls.

 

The first think to check adding more stalls is the supply, it’s certainly a major problem in the UK at motorway service stations.

 

I suspect 8 stalls at 200kw is not possible without upgrading the supply, perhaps they are waiting on that, how many stalls were occupied?

[Bandersnatch]

6 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Right now hybrids are still the most relevant technology.

 

Hybrids come with only about a 1kWh battery by comparison my latest EV has 85kWh gross. Hybrids will only give you a little more efficiency due to regen. By comparison my EV has 580km Range and I can use the bi-directional charging to help power my house.   I use solar to power my off-grid house and E vehicles, resulting in no bills.

 

6 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

I hear they're working on a new generation of batteries that will double or triple the driving distance, and dramatically reduce the charging time. That is when EV's will become truly relevant.

 

I welcome improvements in batteries but my with current EV I can add 7km of range per kWh and can charge at 150kW/hour. So I can add 350km of range in 20 minutes. 

 

6 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Moving beyond lithium will be the ultimate next step. 

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45942785/toyota-future-ev-battery-plans/

 

 

Don't trust anything that Toyota says about EV batteries.

 

 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

Hybrids come with only about a 1kWh battery by comparison my latest EV has 85kWh gross. Hybrids will only give you a little more efficiency due to regen. By comparison my EV has 580km Range and I can use the bi-directional charging to help power my house.   I use solar to power my off-grid house and E vehicles, resulting in no bills.

 

 

I welcome improvements in batteries but my with current EV I can add 7km of range per kWh and can charge at 150kW/hour. So I can add 350km of range in 20 minutes. 

 

 

 

Don't trust anything that Toyota says about EV batteries.

 

 

Does Gabriel Brindusescu work or speak for Toyota....?

[Pib]

30 minutes ago, mistral53 said:

 

Just for giggles, I went downtown to check on a new 'Spark' EV charging installation advertised as 200 kW. 8 stalls, very user friendly due to the pre-paid function: plug-in, QR scan - charging starts. The battery was at 48%, max charging was 80 kW. This got to be a joke, and a bad one at that!

 

 Can you expand on how the "...pre-paid function...." in the Spark app works....specifically how it works?   

 

That is, do you mean the Spark app has a Wallet you need to top-up first and then the charging cost is deduct from the app Wallet.    If so, what payment options are offered to top-up?...such as QR Payment, credit/debit card, etc?    If a Thai credit/debit card "only" is allowed to pay/top-up/etc., then that can many times be problematic if a person can get their credit/debit card accepted by the charging app.  Thanks.

[KhunLA]

30 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

MG ZS EV in the UK prices range from £30,495-£35,495 or Thai Baht 1.4 million to 1.6 million

Byd seal UK prices range from £45,695 to £48,695 or Thai Baht B 2.1 million to B2.233 million

approx £20,000 difference for entry level Byd seal compared to UK 

import tariffs into the UK is currently 10%

That's crazy.  I'm simply not paying that much for 4 wheels.  Too thrifty, and I'm simply not a car person.  As much as I like driving the ZS EV, was quite happy with the ICE version, and thought that was a silly price, @ ฿700k, but better than the entry level JP badged 'made in TH' offering starting @ w600k, at the time.  

 

Take away the govt incentive alone, would be enough, and then add a low 10% tax and I wouldn't even look at BEVs.

 

I think I would have seriously considered a Suzuki Carry, and a RV, conversion on the back bed 

 

Something practical for me, as at that point, still didn't knew I was staying in TH.  2018-2020 was the 'am I staying in TH' question period, as the not so wee one was at Uni, at Krung Thep, a place I didn't want to live.  Before I lop down another ฿20k for a new car, needed to decide if staying, since no real reason to stay in TH  Liquidating everything and testing PKK out as living destination.

 

Sedans for me are out.  Got tired of 'made in TH' entry level crap (3 already), and JP imports are silly price IMHO.

[vinny41]

31 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

Hybrids come with only about a 1kWh battery by comparison my latest EV has 85kWh gross. Hybrids will only give you a little more efficiency due to regen. By comparison my EV has 580km Range and I can use the bi-directional charging to help power my house.   I use solar to power my off-grid house and E vehicles, resulting in no bills.

 

 

I welcome improvements in batteries but my with current EV I can add 7km of range per kWh and can charge at 150kW/hour. So I can add 350km of range in 20 minutes. 

 

 

 

Don't trust anything that Toyota says about EV batteries.

 

 

Here is the article and link that you forgot to provide

The coin-sized prototype is still in laboratory phase, but to make yourself an idea, the automaker managed a fivefold increase in power output regarding the technology it had in 2012.
These batteries are called “solid state” because the liquid electrolyte used in nickel-metal hydride and lithium ion batteries is replaced by a solid ceramic or polymer electrolyte.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/toyota-to-offer-high-performance-solid-state-batteries-in-2020-90501.html

Toyota sets out advanced battery technology roadmap

https://media.toyota.co.uk/toyota-sets-out-advanced-battery-technology-roadmap/

 

[Bandersnatch]

53 minutes ago, transam said:

Does Gabriel Brindusescu work or speak for Toyota....?

 

If you had been following EVs as long as I have you would know that Toyota announces a revolutionary solid state battery practically every year. They started doing it a decade ago. You would have to know nothing about EVs to get excited about it. 

 

Here is the link to the article:

 

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/toyota-to-offer-high-performance-solid-state-batteries-in-2020-90501.html

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

If you had been following EVs as long as I have you would know that Toyota announces a revolutionary solid state battery practically every year. They started doing it a decade ago. You would have to know nothing about EVs to get excited about it. 

 

Here is the link to the article:

 

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/toyota-to-offer-high-performance-solid-state-batteries-in-2020-90501.html

That doesn't answer my question regarding the Toyota "link" you posted...🤔

It was a simple yes or no......🤗

[JBChiangRai]

15 minutes ago, transam said:

That doesn't answer my question regarding the Toyota "link" you posted...🤔

It was a simple yes or no......🤗

you are asking if a reporter works or speaks for Toyota?

 

The answer to your question is no and yes, no he does not work for Toyota as he’s a reporter, but yes, he is speaking for Toyota as he is reporting on one of their announcements.

 

You’re being obtuse again, does it come naturally or did you have to practice a lot?

[transam]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

you are asking if a reporter works or speaks for Toyota?

 

The answer to your question is no and yes, no he does not work for Toyota as he’s a reporter, but yes, he is speaking for Toyota as he is reporting on one of their announcements.

 

You’re being obtuse again, does it come naturally or did you have to practice a lot?

You are turning my simple question into a word salad reply. 

So Gabriel was not working or speaking for Toyota, it was a freelance journalist.

Thank you all.............

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, transam said:

You are turning my simple question into a word salad reply. 

So Gabriel was not working or speaking for Toyota, it was a freelance journalist.

Thank you all.............

As I said he was speaking for Toyota. If Toyota make a media announcements, all of those who amplify it accurately are speaking for Toyota

 

I would change the text in the photo from Tesla to Transam but I’m currently in Phuket with only my mobile phone

[KhunLA]

[josephbloggs]

3 hours ago, transam said:

You are turning my simple question into a word salad reply. 

So Gabriel was not working or speaking for Toyota, it was a freelance journalist.

Thank you all.............

Do you think Gabriel Brindusescu decided to research and do an article on solid state technology, he independently contacted Toyota for information, dug in on their research, weighed it up and wrote an article? Or did Toyota release a PR piece which he lapped up and reworded? You do know how the press works, right? Most of these publications are fed press releases.

Oh, and by the way, Autoevolution gives his bio:

"When it comes to car preferences, he will tell you that classic cars are the best, especially old American muscle. There are few modern day cars that get him really excited, and don’t ever dare to ask him about hybrids or EVs if you don’t want to see him mad excited."  It's not you is it??

 

Edited April 18 by josephbloggs