South Africa now the most dangerous county for driving. 2nd is Thailand, 3rd is USA

[Thunglom]

There seem to be a lot of people on this thread with entrenched - and wildly inaccurate - views on road safety in Thailand. The media doesn't help, but it remains a fact that the death (and injury) figures have not improved for nearly 30 years. one has to conclude that the methodologies applied to road safety are not working. 

most people have a very distorted view of road safety in Thailand but thanks to cognitive dissonance, when confronted with a differing view point, their instinct is to reject it....however  it seems no-one can actually put up any convincing argument why.

[Kinnock]

20 minutes ago, Thunglom said:

There seem to be a lot of people on this thread with entrenched - and wildly inaccurate - views on road safety in Thailand. The media doesn't help, but it remains a fact that the death (and injury) figures have not improved for nearly 30 years. one has to conclude that the methodologies applied to road safety are not working. 

most people have a very distorted view of road safety in Thailand but thanks to cognitive dissonance, when confronted with a differing view point, their instinct is to reject it....however  it seems no-one can actually put up any convincing argument why.

You are studiously ignoring any posts that show the survey in your OP is nothing more than misleading advertising. 

[Liverpool Lou]

4 hours ago, Kinnock said:

This 'survey' has zero credibility, it is just classic marketing through the media.

Marketing of what?

[Kinnock]

2 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Marketing of what?

Driver training schools

[Thunglom]

10 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

Driver training schools

How does this help? I think you need to look at sources of information. Not just for this report but OTHER reports too.

Personally, I think this report is a bit skewed but it gives a perspective that confronts the hard-held prejudices of many who feel they can comment on road safety.

[Thunglom]

39 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

You are studiously ignoring any posts that show the survey in your OP is nothing more than misleading advertising. 

Most definitely not - where do I say nothing that gives you that idea?

[placeholder]

5 hours ago, Kinnock said:

How's this for a reasoned justification .....

 

One measure was deaths per capita.

 

Motor vehicle ownership per 1000 people: (World Bank Data)

 

USA 816

Thailand 281

India 44

 

Clearly a driver training organisation will want to make their markets look the most dangerous.

 

And roads in India and Thailand must be many, many times more risky than US to be so high in the ranking.

 

Then let's take another 'measure' from the survey - blood alcohol level.  Surely the % of people driving drunk is the real measure, not the legally specified limit?  And I bet Russia or even Thailand would be near the top in this measure.

 

And the UK was equal to US ..... it's nearly impossible to drive anywhere in the UK without being fined for a safety violation.

 

This 'survey' has zero credibility, it is just classic marketing through the media.

That figure for the US has to be incorrect. If there were that many motorcycles, that would be about as many as the total number of registered motor vehicles in the USA.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183505/number-of-vehicles-in-the-united-states-since-1990/#:~:text=How many registered motor vehicles,%2C buses%2C and other vehicles.

Motorcycles aren't all that popular. There couldn't possibly be almost as many motorcycles as people.  I looked up the total number of motorcycles registered in the  in the USA and here are the number for 2020

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191002/number-of-registered-motorcycles-in-the-us-by-state/

[itsari]

7 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Funny how so many posters see the US in third place and, without any reasoned justification, decide that the survey is a crappy one!

Crappy as your reply .

Can you drive Scouser?

[Liverpool Lou]

6 minutes ago, itsari said:

Crappy as your reply .

Can you drive Scouser?

Your reply was even worse than you think mine was. 

 

Yes, I can drive (as though that is relevant) but I'm not a "scouser", why would you slur me with that assertion?

Edited May 15, 2022 by Liverpool Lou

[itsari]

2 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Your reply was even worse than you think mine was. 

 

Yes, I can drive (as though that is relevant) but I'm not a "scouser", why would you slur me with that assertion?

Scouser is not a slur.

Citizens from Liverpool are proud to be called a Scouser.

As a person from Birmingham is equally proud to be called a Brummy .

I ask if you can drive as the idea the US is second to Thailand in driving ability is laughable .

[Sparktrader]

Are there any asian F1 drivers? So there's a clue.

[Liverpool Lou]

5 minutes ago, itsari said:

Scouser is not a slur.

Citizens from Liverpool are proud to be called a Scouser.

As a person from Birmingham is equally proud to be called a Brummy .

I ask if you can drive as the idea the US is second to Thailand in driving ability is laughable .

I am not a scouser so it is as far as I am concerned.   I think you're assuming that the only Liverpool is the one in England, yes?

 

I did not say that US was second to Thailand, I said it was two just two places behind Thailand, i.e. third place and that was confirmed in a survey published by this forum today.  

[Kinnock]

1 hour ago, Thunglom said:

Most definitely not - where do I say nothing that gives you that idea?

Deaths per capita is almost meaningless when motor vehicle ownership ranges from over 800 per thousand heads in US to 44 in India, but you keep quoting this statistic like it supports your point.  

 

Take 1000 people in the US, they will include over 800 motorists, and compare their accident rate to the 44 motorists out of 1000 people in India, or the 280 in Thailand.  Of course the US looks high.

 

You picked a deeply flawed report to post, then try to defend it.  Give it rest.

[Iamfalang]

I'm alive, so Thailand is super, super, super safe for me.   

 

Can't worry about others' driving habits.  

 

Worry about these stats and you would never do anything!!!

 

I'm super busy curing cancer............ can't control the scooters....why worry about it???

[Thunglom]

23 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

Deaths per capita is almost meaningless when motor vehicle ownership ranges from over 800 per thousand heads in US to 44 in India, but you keep quoting this statistic like it supports your point.  

 

Take 1000 people in the US, they will include over 800 motorists, and compare their accident rate to the 44 motorists out of 1000 people in India, or the 280 in Thailand.  Of course the US looks high.

 

You picked a deeply flawed report to post, then try to defend it.  Give it rest.

Precisely the opposite, I don't use one set of stats. I give various examples and use many stats.

[itsari]

1 hour ago, Sparktrader said:

Are there any asian F1 drivers? So there's a clue.

Alex Albon is the most recent formula 1 driver from Thailand .

Prince Birabongse was the only other formula 1 driver I could find which was back in 1950 . Educated at eaton and Cambridge 

[The Hammer2021]

I believe  South Africa is dangerous for general violent crime and possibly has the worst  record for rape in the world. In general  not  a safe place

[Yellowtail]

The "study" (apparently) bases it ratings only per capita deaths, which makes the "study" ridiculous. 

 

Any reasonable study would, at the very least, be based on deaths per passenger-km. 

 

It should further be broken down by public & private transport and motorcycles should be separate from automobiles. 

 

As others have pointed out, the percentage of people that ride in cars, much less owns cars varies wildly. Most everyone of diving age owns a car. 

 

The distance people drive is not even taken into account. I think it safe to assume people in Singapore drive shorter distances than do people in Thailand. 

 

It amazes me that anyone (except perhaps the intelligentsia) would give any credit at all to such a study. 

[Dcheech]

Looks like the OP has found an anecdotal survey he likes.

 

They are a dime a dozen. However I noticed little change in the 2016 or 18 lists. And ones that have been turned in since 20. Lots of missing due to the pandemic since then.

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Dcheech

[Yellowtail]

20 hours ago, Thunglom said:

As shown here and elsewhere Europe is leagues ahead of the lot.

This shows nothing of the sort. 

 

[Thunglom]

24 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

This shows nothing of the sort. 

 

that's just gainsaying unless you can support it with some evidence.

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, Thunglom said:

that's just gainsaying unless you can support it with some evidence.

The "study" (apparently) bases it ratings only per capita deaths, which makes the "study" ridiculous. 

 

Any reasonable study would, at the very least, be based on deaths per passenger-km. 

 

It should further be broken down by public & private transport and motorcycles should be separate from automobiles. 

 

As others have pointed out, the percentage of people that ride in cars, much less owns cars varies wildly. Most everyone of diving age owns a car. 

 

The distance people drive is not even taken into account. I think it safe to assume people in Singapore drive shorter distances than do people in Thailand. 

 

It amazes me that anyone (except perhaps the intelligentsia) would give any credit at all to such a study. 

 

[The Hammer2021]

19 hours ago, Thunglom said:

Your arguments are all over the place - we are talking road safety. If you don't like a theory then you need to put up an argument against tat theory.

However you just decide to shift goalposts or cheery pick to attempt to back up an unsupportable hypothesis - not even a theory.

I am talking reality.  You introduced the word 'shot'. I have no idea why.

I lived in Saudi and I can guarantee driving  is more dangerous than here.  I am 'moving no goal  posts' at all and  have no idea what you're  talking about and I suspect you don't either.  Cutting and posting worthy  but dull nonsense  that is not you you're  own experience- just an ill informed half opinion is meaningless. Just to clarify: I do NOT believe  Thailand  is the third  most dangerous place to drive  in the world. Saudi,  Kuwait, Libya are more dangerous based on MY EXPERIENCE but I also believe other parts  of the MENA, South America, Asia and Africa are more dangerous. 

19 hours ago, Kinnock said:

The ranking looks to be based on a range of scored criteria including legal blood alcohol limits and max speed limits ..... but these may be spurious measures depending on the level of enforcement and cultural tendency to comply.

 

A higher alcohol limit that is strictly enforced (e.g UK) would be better than a lower limit with little enforcement.  And actual road accident desths is only one of several measures.  Also, deaths per capita is of little use if half the population can't afford a car or motorcycle (India, Bangladesh).

 

So not a valid study in my view, and anyone who has driven in India, Saudi Arabia or Mexico will know what dangerous roads look like.

Thank you for your informed rational input.

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

The "study" (apparently) bases it ratings only per capita deaths, which makes the "study" ridiculous. 

 

Any reasonable study would, at the very least, be based on deaths per passenger-km. 

 

It should further be broken down by public & private transport and motorcycles should be separate from automobiles. 

 

As others have pointed out, the percentage of people that ride in cars, much less owns cars varies wildly. Most everyone of diving age owns a car. 

 

The distance people drive is not even taken into account. I think it safe to assume people in Singapore drive shorter distances than do people in Thailand. 

 

It amazes me that anyone (except perhaps the intelligentsia) would give any credit at all to such a study. 

 

Actually, the study is even worse than that. It rates the US as number 3 based on the laxity of its drinking  & driving laws. Nothing at all to do with actual per capita death rates.

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Actually, the study is even worse than that. It rates the US as number 3 based on the laxity of its drinking  & driving laws. Nothing at all to do with actual per capita death rates.

It looked to me like the only thing used to actually rate counties was per-capita deaths. I think the other things were just thrown in to make it sound legitimate. 

 

I'm sure the US rates far behind India and in swimming pool safety as well. 

[Kinnock]

45 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

I am talking reality.  You introduced the word 'shot'. I have no idea why.

I lived in Saudi and I can guarantee driving  is more dangerous than here.  I am 'moving no goal  posts' at all and  have no idea what you're  talking about and I suspect you don't either.  Cutting and posting worthy  but dull nonsense  that is not you you're  own experience- just an ill informed half opinion is meaningless. Just to clarify: I do NOT believe  Thailand  is the third  most dangerous place to drive  in the world. Saudi,  Kuwait, Libya are more dangerous based on MY EXPERIENCE but I also believe other parts  of the MENA, South America, Asia and Africa are more dangerous. 

Thank you for your informed rational input.

One additional thought on Saudi Arabia's ranking ..... half the population do not drive, even after the token changes to the laws relating to women, so any ranking based on accidents per head will appear low.

 

I have visited KSA on business, and the high road speeds plus eratic driving certainly looked risky to me, but the ranking in the OP is based on measures like per capita deaths (distorted for KSA as mentioned above) and legal alcohol limits, which is also unique in Saudi, so the survey will rank KSA as safer than many other countries due to the use of irrelevant measures.

[The Hammer2021]

28 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

One additional thought on Saudi Arabia's ranking ..... half the population do not drive, even after the token changes to the laws relating to women, so any ranking based on accidents per head will appear low.

 

I have visited KSA on business, and the high road speeds plus eratic driving certainly looked risky to me, but the ranking in the OP is based on measures like per capita deaths (distorted for KSA as mentioned above) and legal alcohol limits, which is also unique in Saudi, so the survey will rank KSA as safer than many other countries due to the use of irrelevant measures.

During Ramadan, when blood sugar levels are really low just before sunset and people  are speeding to get to  mosque or break fast is extraordinary dangerous  time - refused to drive  under these conditions- just frightening  as was driving  at rush hour on Intercity highways

[Thunglom]

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

The "study" (apparently) bases it ratings only per capita deaths, which makes the "study" ridiculous. 

 

Any reasonable study would, at the very least, be based on deaths per passenger-km. 

 

It should further be broken down by public & private transport and motorcycles should be separate from automobiles. 

 

As others have pointed out, the percentage of people that ride in cars, much less owns cars varies wildly. Most everyone of diving age owns a car. 

 

The distance people drive is not even taken into account. I think it safe to assume people in Singapore drive shorter distances than do people in Thailand. 

 

It amazes me that anyone (except perhaps the intelligentsia) would give any credit at all to such a study. 

 

I'm not referring to just this study - if you compare any statistics of t USA with most countries in Europe, the USA falls way behind. There is not one statistic that America fares better than most countries in Europe.

[KhunLA]

Less people dying seems to be deadlier, and only 56 of all countries studied

  ...  another (marketing) study to be ignored;

 

Thailand with almost 27% more deaths per capita, and comes in 2nd.  According to Wiki, USA has less deaths per capita than over 100 other countries, but comes in 3rd.  Must be that new math.

 

USA, one of the more populated countries ... guess that didn't influence them at all, or hurt their future app download numbers ... ????

 

"South Africa

South Africa has been ranked as the world's most dangerous country to drive...second-highest number of road accident deaths too, with 25.9 per 100,000 people.

 

Thailand

Among the list of 56 countries in the study, Thailand came in second position. Thailand reported a worryingly high number of deaths on the roads, with 32.7 per 100,000 people, more than any other country that we looked at. "

Edited May 15, 2022 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

4 hours ago, Thunglom said:

I'm not referring to just this study - if you compare any statistics of t USA with most countries in Europe, the USA falls way behind. There is not one statistic that America fares better than most countries in Europe.

Guess it depends on which study, and which numbers you plan on cherry picking, then there's a few the USA seems to be safer.  Overall average, nothing special, and even better, if picking per vehicle average.

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

 

I prefer to rely on my driving skills, and not studies based on idiots' driving skills.  They simply point out the need for enhanced defensive driving.  Good reference to know, but do you really need to.

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by KhunLA