Cabinet divisions break out over U.K. plan to override Brexit treaty

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, SunsetT said:

Agree totally. Never understood Nationalism!  One's nationality (and religion) is purely an accident of birth.

You may have been an "accident" , but my Parents were married and they planned on having a Family 

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17 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You may have been an "accident" , but my Parents were married and they planned on having a Family 

You were there at the planning stage?

[Surasak]

21 hours ago, robblok said:

If you are not going to keep your word you should not agree to something. Untrustworthy that what it is. Next time don't trust UK.

 

Hope the EU puts up some sanctions if they do. First you agree to something and later you want to rip it up. Definition of untrustworthy. I hope the EU hits back hard if they do so. 

 

Besides if the Irish want to unite and leave the EU its their choice. 

The EU forced the issue at the time of signing the agreement. Johnson agreed just to get the deal done. Unfortunately, neither side realised the problems that were about to be unleashed and the EU will now not give ground, although workable options have been put forward. It all about punishing the UK for leaving what is plainly a dictatorship.

[Joe Farang]

7 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

Seriously ? Putting sovereignty in speech marks as mockery is poor & unworthy. UK clearly not ruled by USA if that’s your point..Sovereignty a real & critical concept. Ask Ukraine about that ????

 

…..Sole reason in fact why I voted Leave.Actual Economics of Leaving too complicated back in 2016 although Principles of Free Trade / Lower Prices made sense).
 

Couldn’t care less about any short term Leaving difficulties made by others. ???????????????? Sorted over Time.

I'm not saying that the UK is ruled by the US, BUT ...

 

When my Thai wife was moving to Ireland with me, we looked at transitting through Heathrow. It would have meant applying for a full visa as though she was applying to live in UK due to there being no checks at the time.

The strangest thing in the application was that all fees would have to be paid in US dollars as UK Immigration was outsourced to a "US Company"

What do you make of that ?

Needless to say we bypassed the UK in travelling.

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You are going off topic again 

As ye sow, so shall ye reap. 

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25 minutes ago, Surasak said:

The EU forced the issue at the time of signing the agreement. Johnson agreed just to get the deal done. Unfortunately, neither side realised the problems that were about to be unleashed and the EU will now not give ground, although workable options have been put forward. It all about punishing the UK for leaving what is plainly a dictatorship.

Johnson could have chosen to exit the EU "dictatorship" without signing any deal. In fact, that option was widely discussed with trade reverting to WTO rules.

[Joe Farang]

5 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

Why wait? Change your hated Passport now and Stay in EU????????Rumania quite cheap ????????

Data issued by Ireland’s foreign minister, Simon Coveney, shows just over 422,000 passport applications were made in Great Britain in the years 2016 to 2020

The figures do not include numbers for Northern Ireland, where British and Irish citizens born in the region are entitled to dual British and Irish nationality under the Good Friday agreement.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/03/brexit-vote-sparked-surge-in-irish-passports-issued-in-great-britain

[Joe Farang]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Most were Scottish, and somebody else was already there planting stuff in the very same land.

 

But a nationalist not understanding the history of his own nation is no surprise.

Mick's origins are Irish.

 

Not English or Scottis

 

Clan: McManus of Drumshanbo

Other branches of the clan: Moyne, Main, Manson, Mayne, Manasses, Mann, MacMayne.
Irish Clan Name: Mac Maghnusa.

Mc Manus is the Anglicisation of the ancient Irish MacMaghnuis, meaning son of Magus. Magus is a popular Norse personal name from the Latin “magnus” meaning great. Although made up of a Norse name the Mc Manus septs are entirely Irish. Septs of the name share no common ancestry. The name arouse of a number of district people who became distinguished due to their name. One of the Mc Manus sept claim descent from Maghnus who was sun of Turlough O’Connor King of Ireland and had his seat at Kilronan, Co. Roscommon.

[Mac Mickmanus]

29 minutes ago, Joe Farang said:

I'm not saying that the UK is ruled by the US, BUT ...

 

When my Thai wife was moving to Ireland with me, we looked at transitting through Heathrow. It would have meant applying for a full visa as though she was applying to live in UK due to there being no checks at the time.

The strangest thing in the application was that all fees would have to be paid in US dollars as UK Immigration was outsourced to a "US Company"

What do you make of that ?

Needless to say we bypassed the UK in travelling.

Could you give a link to the UK immigration  Website that only accepts USA $ as payment ?

  {I have just looked on the UK Gov website and Thai people transiting through the UK to Ireland , do not even need to have a UK visa }

[BusyB]

1 hour ago, SunsetT said:

Agree totally. Never understood Nationalism!  One's nationality (and religion) is purely an accident of birth.

As in 98% of cases one's religion ... and the football team one supports ... and in a massive number of cases even one's profession. 

 

[RayC]

2 hours ago, Surasak said:

The EU forced the issue at the time of signing the agreement.

How did they do that?

 

2 hours ago, Surasak said:

Johnson agreed just to get the deal done.

Then he made a bad decision and was incompetent.

 

2 hours ago, Surasak said:

Unfortunately, neither side realised the problems that were about to be unleashed

For the umpteenth time, the DUP made known their objections to a border down the Irish Sea way before January 2020. Johnson chose to ignore this warning. It was not difficult to see what the reaction of the DUP would be to this snub but, nevertheless, Johnson ploughed ahead.

 

I'd imagine that the EU side were all too aware of the potential problems but what were they meant to do? If they refused to sign because of reservations about what might happen in NI, they would be accused of trying to keep the UK in the EU and/or interfering in UK domestic politics. Brexiters would probably have self-combusted if that scenario had occurred.

 

2 hours ago, Surasak said:

and the EU will now not give ground, although workable options have been put forward.

What workable solutions? 

 

2 hours ago, Surasak said:

 

It all about punishing the UK for leaving what is plainly a dictatorship.

It's all about the EU applying the terms of the Agreement. 

 

The idea that the EU is a dictatorship is complete and utter nonsense. Again, paraphrasing a previous post, there are two EU institutions with legislative powers. The first (the European Council)  comprises of the Heads of Government from the member state; the second consists of MPs who are elected by the electorate in the member states and sit in the European Parliament.

 

How is that undemocratic, let alone a dictatorship?

[TropicalGuy]

7 hours ago, candide said:

Not clearly at all

Uk sovereignty: the EU is applying the agreement negotiated. If it is true that there us a breach of sovereignty, it means It's BoJo who breached it by signing the agreement

 

Good faith: the EU is applying the same checks as to any third-party country without any discrimination, in accordance to TWO rules

Check What ? UK Standards on Everything are higher than EU stds. 
EU stds are acceptable to UK so nearly no checks by UK on EU Goods so why can’t EU do same for UK? Pure EU Spite. UK not just “any” 3rd party like Morocco are we ?

 

Our Goods should be trusted & accepted by EU as theirs are accepted by UK. 

[candide]

5 minutes ago, TropicalGuy said:

Check What ? UK Standards on Everything are higher than EU stds. 
EU stds are acceptable to UK so nearly no checks by UK on EU Goods so why can’t EU do same for UK? Pure EU Spite. UK not just “any” 3rd party like Morocco are we ?

 

Our Goods should be trusted & accepted by EU as theirs are accepted by UK. 

Why would they make an exception for UK? They are applying the usual EU regulation. Ontop of it, t is forbidden by the WTO. 

 

It's the UK who did not want to join the common market for ideological reasons, and made the choice to be a third country. You cannot have your cake and eat it. 

 

BTW  the reason why UK is accepting EU checks is that UK is unable to do border checks. The new information system is still not operational. That's also against WTO rules.

[Mac Mickmanus]

14 minutes ago, candide said:

It's the UK who did not want to join the common market for ideological reasons, and made the choice to be a third country. You cannot have your cake and eat it. 

Didnt the UK join the common market in 1973 and is still a member of the group (now named the E,C ?)

[TropicalGuy]

3 minutes ago, RayC said:

How did they do that?

 

Then he made a bad decision and was incompetent.

 

For the umpteenth time, the DUP made known their objections to a border down the Irish Sea way before January 2020. Johnson chose to ignore this warning. It was not difficult to see what the reaction of the DUP would be to this snub but, nevertheless, Johnson ploughed ahead.

 

I'd imagine that the EU side were all too aware of the potential problems but what were they meant to do? If they refused to sign because of reservations about what might happen in NI, they would be accused of trying to keep the UK in the EU and/or interfering in UK domestic politics. Brexiters would probably have self-combusted if that scenario had occurred.

 

What workable solutions? 

 

It's all about the EU applying the terms of the Agreement. 

 

The idea that the EU is a dictatorship is complete and utter nonsense. Again, paraphrasing a previous post, there are two EU institutions with legislative powers. The first (the European Council)  comprises of the Heads of Government from the member state; the second consists of MPs who are elected by the electorate in the member states and sit in the European Parliament.

 

How is that undemocratic, let alone a dictatorship?

Euro parliament has little power.

EU holds referendums again until getting result it wants. Rees- Mogg made the case at the Oxford Union for EU not being democratic…. Good enough for me…..????????????

[candide]

45 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Didnt the UK join the common market in 1973 and is still a member of the group (now named the E,C ?)

It left it with Brexit. If I remember well, Brexiters did not want to remain in the common market because they did not want to be supervised by the European Court of Justice.

[GrandPapillon]

52 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Didnt the UK join the common market in 1973 and is still a member of the group (now named the E,C ?)

no, stilly Theresa May wanted to impress everyone and went beyond the "referendum" rhetoric and went FULL MONTHY on Brexit ????

[Loiner]

1 hour ago, candide said:

Why would they make an exception for UK? They are applying the usual EU regulation.

With regard to Northern Ireland, there is no request for the EU to make an exception for UK. There are no usual EU regulations for transiting goods within a third country. I think that could be forbidden by the WTO. 
The EU should be even allowed an opinion on what happens between the mainland and NI, let alone interfere in it. 
Never mind, Article 16 will sort that out. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

22 minutes ago, candide said:

It left it with Brexit. If I remember well, Brexiters did not want to remain in the common market because they did not want to be supervised by the European Court of Justice.

 

21 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

no, stilly Theresa May wanted to impress everyone and went beyond the "referendum" rhetoric and went FULL MONTHY on Brexit ????

Yes, that is correct , the U.K has left the common market as well .

Brexit is even better than I thought that it was 

[RayC]

1 hour ago, TropicalGuy said:

Euro parliament has little power.

EU holds referendums again until getting result it wants. Rees- Mogg made the case at the Oxford Union for EU not being democratic…. Good enough for me…..????????????

That wouldn't satisfy me but each to their own????

[LoeiI]

1 hour ago, TropicalGuy said:

Euro parliament has little power.

EU holds referendums again until getting result it wants. Rees- Mogg made the case at the Oxford Union for EU not being democratic…. Good enough for me…..????????????

C'mon now are you a soldier or a Nanny surely not both ? do you trample all over his democratic rights before or after you change his bum and put him to bed ?  ????????

[candide]

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

With regard to Northern Ireland, there is no request for the EU to make an exception for UK. There are no usual EU regulations for transiting goods within a third country. I think that could be forbidden by the WTO. 
The EU should be even allowed an opinion on what happens between the mainland and NI, let alone interfere in it. 
Never mind, Article 16 will sort that out. 

If it's that bad, why did BoJo sign an agreement allowing it? That would be a case of acute negligence...

[candide]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

 

Yes, that is correct , the U.K has left the common market as well .

Brexit is even better than I thought that it was 

That was the decision made. Then Brexiters should stop whining about border checks, the EU being not nice  etc... They have their nose in it and it's their own fault.

[Mac Mickmanus]

12 minutes ago, candide said:

That was the decision made. Then Brexiters should stop whining about border checks, the EU being not nice  etc... They have their nose in it and it's their own fault.

Just out of curiosity .

Who are you referring to ?

Who is "whining about border checks" and the "E.U not being very nice " ?

Is that about anyone in particular and just a random rant ?

[candide]

51 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Just out of curiosity .

Who are you referring to ?

Who is "whining about border checks" and the "E.U not being very nice " ?

Is that about anyone in particular and just a random rant ?

Brexiters in general, for example in this forum. 

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

 

Who is "whining about border checks" and the "E.U not being very nice " ?

 

I think that you only need look through this thread to find plenty of examples of whining Brexiters.

Edited June 10, 2022 by RayC

[Andycoops]

On 6/9/2022 at 11:02 PM, robblok said:

If you are not going to keep your word you should not agree to something. Untrustworthy that what it is. Next time don't trust UK.

 

Hope the EU puts up some sanctions if they do. First you agree to something and later you want to rip it up. Definition of untrustworthy. I hope the EU hits back hard if they do so. 

 

Besides if the Irish want to unite and leave the EU its their choice. 

There is nothing more untrustworthy than the corrupt unelected EU bureaucrats trying to run 27 countries as one.

[Loiner]

4 hours ago, Andycoops said:

There is nothing more untrustworthy than the corrupt unelected EU bureaucrats trying to run 27 countries as one.

Or the untrustworthy anti democratic Lib/Lab/Rejoin pact trying to return the UK to the EU. 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Or the untrustworthy anti democratic Lib/Lab/Rejoin pact trying to return the UK to the EU. 

I think we can find a more verifiable example of ‘lacking trust’, a stranger to truth.

 

An ‘Englishman who’s word is not his bond’, hence this thread.

[Loiner]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I think we can find a more verifiable example of ‘lacking trust’, a stranger to truth.

 

An ‘Englishman who’s word is not his bond’, hence this thread.

Getting Brexit done properly.