Paperwork is clogging up government departments in Thailand

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, samtam said:

I just got a new passport yesterday. About to be picked up by my IMM agent for transferring of stamps. He said I had to go in person

The agents who got me my new passport also transferred my stamps for 2000 baht more... .. they then also got the job of doing the retirement extension.... immigration was having queues down towards the beach at that time! Never had to attend myself. That agency did okay out of me.....

Edited July 19, 2022 by jacko45k

[RobU]

Back in 1953 C Northcote Parkinson wrote a very insightful set of rules based on very careful  analysis of published statistics written in a comedic style with examples regarding the UK Civil Service and Armed Forces (Thai civil service is based on British civil service), foreword by the late Queens Consort HRH Prince Phillip Duke of Edinburgh. Still published by penguine books it has the actor Terry Thomas on the cover. There are mathematical formulas in it that can be applied and they work

One of the rules states that:

"Work expands to fill the time available to do it in and the number of people available to do it"

An example of this is:

In 1914 the number of 'officials' working at the Admiralty was 2000 it expanded to 3569 by 1928 and this growth was totally unrelated to any possible increase in workload, the British Royal Navy had in fact got smaller over the same period of time.

[RocketDog]

5 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

OH NO! Another 'all Thais are poor' post. Please wake up. There is a fast growing middle class with plenty of money to spend. If you are in Bangkok, make a tour of the bars and restaurants and see how the Thais are fighting for the 'basic necessities'.

I avoid Bangkok with extreme prejudice. I've had my belly full of big cities everywhere. They are always a mixture of so many foreign influences as to be only vaguely representative masquerades of their own culture. It's laughable for you to offer it as any kind of insight into Thai culture. If you can afford to live in Bangkok then you really don't have a clue to how the rest of the country lives. Your cynicism has gotten the better of you.

 

I have however been enough other places in Thailand to form an opinion. I could throw your 'wake up' phrase back at you but that would be petty.

Suffice to it  say we disagree and that neither of us can change conditions here one whit.

[RocketDog]

5 hours ago, stoner said:

apparently you don't either. 

 

this process is wanted by those in charge. it is done on purpose to ensure the same systems continue so the same life can continue. 

 

you think for one moment they care a single thought about anything anyone has to say about it ? 

 

why do you think getting in positions such as these are such coveted things in this country ? 

 

can you please sign your comment in blue ink next time.

I don't understand a thing you said but I'm sure it made sense to you.

[superal]

For regular annual applications , all that is really needed is a new set of photos and a form asking " has there been any changes from last year and if so please write the details and  inform the I/O "

Went with a pal yesterday to get his 60 tourist visa extension . He gave all the relative paperwork and was told to go and wait in the garden . He was called back some time later to sign many papers of which he had no idea what he was signing . Most of the staff were eating at their desks (not lunch time , that is 13 00 hrs ,it was 11 20 am ) . Finally got the extension , total time 2 hours and maybe 3 other customers . 

Its the same where ever you go in Thailand , over staffed , too many steps per activity especially some diy stores . One diy store in my town , pay for the goods to the cashier , take your goods to the next desk  where they put the goods in a plastic bag , take the bag to another desk where they empty the bag and check off against the till receipt , reload the bag ( 2 staff for this ) , then the receipt is stamped and off you go .

[flyfrog]

I have a work permit for 25 years and still every year have to do the same paper work, I think I proved myself for all those years paying my taxes etc...so why not give me workpermit for 5 years or so, saves a lot of work

[stoner]

28 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

I don't understand a thing you said but I'm sure it made sense to you.

i get it you are a thai govt worker troll. well done. 

[Bangkok Barry]

17 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

It's laughable for you to offer it as any kind of insight into Thai culture. If you can afford to live in Bangkok then you really don't have a clue to how the rest of the country lives.

There's always a danger in making assumptions concerning someone you don't know. I've lived in the country I know nothing about for 26 years, 11 of those up country. Even up country, a close relative has recently spent 80,000 baht on a 'special' number plate for her SUV. She's not struggling for basic necessities. I don't think her daughters will be either, with one newly qualified with a near perfect score to be a lawyer who is in demand by several companies in Bangkok for her services, and another who is soon to qualify as a doctor.

 

A nephew set up his own company designing bathroom ware and is doing very nicely with a huge house, and another has three houses, two pickups, a van used to ferry kids to school, two motorcycles and several plots of land. None struggling for basic necessities, and only one - the lawyer - a Bangkok resident. Outside of the family, a noodle seller in the nearest town has three houses, because she has saved her money instead of taking expensive holidays. There are plenty of Thais with plenty of money out there. To throw your statement, your accusation, back at you, you really don't have a clue.

[brianthainess]

1 hour ago, kimamey said:

Then we took pictures. Another time she wrote it on an old tile with a marker pen.

Mine number is written on an old biscuit tin lid attached to our house with double sided tape.

 

3 hours ago, georgey said:

When I recently did my one-year extension based on marriage, I decided, out of pure laziness, to use the same photos as last year.

When i handed them my new photos last year, the eagle eyed officer immediately said "Oh you have a new fridge". ???? 

[Burma Bill]

2 hours ago, hotchilli said:

Wed 6th went to the IO to do my marriage Non-O ext'n based on savings...

usual mountain of paperwork... [been married now 19 years the last 14 years resident here in Thailand]

Officer asked for more information.. updated government documents plus a map of my home location, and a complete second set of copies of everything.

Had to go to some local government offices so took time to get the info.

Returned to IO Mon 11th before the holiday break.

Not happy with the "google map I supplied with a pin on my house location.

Asked for a hand drawn map on the reverse... two copies.

Eventually excepted the paperwork.

Today had a visit at home from immigration, many questions and more copies later they went away happy.

Now wait to see if it's been excepted when I call the IO in a few days.

 

 

Thanks and with respect, you have my sympathy and it highlights the point I was trying to make about Thai bureaucracy in my post. No such BS here in Siem Reap. Out of interest, I thought Thai Immigration had smart cars that know where you live without having to hand draw maps!

[BangkokReady]

3 hours ago, BusyB said:

Nepotism: jobs for the boys.

 

Patrimony: jobs for the family.

Nepotism covers both.  Apparently, Patrimony is more about inheriting things from a male relative.

 

Quote

 

property inherited from one's father or male ancestor.

 

 

[BusyB]

21 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Nepotism covers both.  Apparently, Patrimony is more about inheriting things from a male relative.

 

 

I think paternalism was the word I was looking for ;D

 

[Mavideol]

4 hours ago, possum1931 said:

"It is starting to get out of hand and yet everything could be simply dealt with online."

Don't you need a bit of a brain to do things online?

are you telling us they don't have any brain, not even a little bit, like tiny bit 555

[NoshowJones]

12 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

are you telling us they don't have any brain, not even a little bit, like tiny bit 555

Let's just say most of them don't have the brains to be computer literate. That's why there is so much paperwork needed at the IO's, government offices etc.

[peterfranks]

8 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Let's just say most of them don't have the brains to be computer literate.

The phrase, don't throw stones when you live in a glass house, springs to mind here

[digger70]

Don't you people know that it looks very important for office people to walk around with a handful of paper  instead of punching  a keyboard ? It's all about Face  and power.

[Sydebolle]

The department of land transport in Nong Khai has a separate warehouse of more than 1'000 m2 just to store documents; paper nobody ever wants to see ever anymore. 

The beauty of all this paper mania is, that after 30 years of work permits and subsequent extensions, the particular, handpicked choice of documents varies from clown to clown. 

Best is to have a full set of ALL documents you ever had with you, apart from the original. If they ask fo X - give 'em X, if they ask for Y - give 'em Y and if they ask for Z then give 'em Z. 

Quite amazing, how puzzled these paper pushing clowns of officers are when you show up with all possible documents, including photos of your house number, you sitting at the office with a pen in your hand, your bed room, copy of lease as well as copies of the last documents issued by the fellow brainless folks down at the immigration. 

Welcome to Thailand and the 9th century; then they wonder why nobody is establishing regional offices for Asia in Thailand. Apart from the technical absence of supporting local staff understanding anything more than Somtam and Khao Niew, it is the tremendous paperwork at the discretion of Somchai who has not the slightest idea of what they are actually doing. 

For good measure it needs to be mentioned, that more than half of those clowns do not even speak  English, despite Thais not needing a work permit (just yet), i.e. it is by all accounts a person who might not be fluent in the semi-divine language of Khon Thai. 

Go figure ...... and now you may kiss their ring! 

[unblocktheplanet]

Maybe this paperwork is crucially important to national security. But my public hospital trashes all medical records every five years. So if one has a continuing medical problem, no investgation is possible. What is possible is digitisation. Isn't that what...computers are for?

[overherebc]

5 hours ago, Burma Bill said:

Thanks and with respect, you have my sympathy and it highlights the point I was trying to make about Thai bureaucracy in my post. No such BS here in Siem Reap. Out of interest, I thought Thai Immigration had smart cars that know where you live without having to hand draw maps!

Maybe the cars do but it appears no one else does.

????????

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, Sydebolle said:

The department of land transport in Nong Khai has a separate warehouse of more than 1'000 m2 just to store documents; paper nobody ever wants to see ever anymore. 

The beauty of all this paper mania is, that after 30 years of work permits and subsequent extensions, the particular, handpicked choice of documents varies from clown to clown. 

Best is to have a full set of ALL documents you ever had with you, apart from the original. If they ask fo X - give 'em X, if they ask for Y - give 'em Y and if they ask for Z then give 'em Z. 

Quite amazing, how puzzled these paper pushing clowns of officers are when you show up with all possible documents, including photos of your house number, you sitting at the office with a pen in your hand, your bed room, copy of lease as well as copies of the last documents issued by the fellow brainless folks down at the immigration. 

Welcome to Thailand and the 9th century; then they wonder why nobody is establishing regional offices for Asia in Thailand. Apart from the technical absence of supporting local staff understanding anything more than Somtam and Khao Niew, it is the tremendous paperwork at the discretion of Somchai who has not the slightest idea of what they are actually doing. 

For good measure it needs to be mentioned, that more than half of those clowns do not even speak  English, despite Thais not needing a work permit (just yet), i.e. it is by all accounts a person who might not be fluent in the semi-divine language of Khon Thai. 

Go figure ...... and now you may kiss their ring! 

What also works well is a couple of copies that might be a little bit not so clear and keep a a couple of really good copies in you own file. When you are asked to get better copies and come back later look slightly confused and then say, oh I might have better ones here and hand them over.

Works well.

[Blumpie]

Slip them some bhat and all your troubles will go away.

[Enzian]

It's the reason I had to change my FCD account to baht: there is no paper record of a dollar account that one can make that my office will accept. 

Eventually this has to end, but I'll be gone by then.

[hotchilli]

12 hours ago, Burma Bill said:

Thanks and with respect, you have my sympathy and it highlights the point I was trying to make about Thai bureaucracy in my post. No such BS here in Siem Reap. Out of interest, I thought Thai Immigration had smart cars that know where you live without having to hand draw maps!

They did indeed arrive in a smart car... after calling twice to get directions.

They said my hand drawn map was not accurate enough.

Google map was on the reverse side with a pin on my house.

[KannikaP]

22 hours ago, phitsanulokjohn said:

After doing 6 years worth of marriage extensions.I would have to agree it requires more signatures than enough.I look at it this way, it usually takes an hour to complete and saves me a further B400,000 stuck in the bank doing nothing for the alternative of a retirement visa,so all in all I don't mind much.I have to admit though the amount of paperwork here is staggering.

P'lok IO is pretty lenient in what they require and will accept the Combination method ie 50k a month and 220k in the bank. 

But the new office is a bitch to get to!

[Nicholas Paul KNIGHT]

On 7/19/2022 at 4:54 AM, gp2002 said:

"So what is stopping the government from implementing digitization on a grand scale?"

 

Common sense, intelligence... I'll stop there ????????

No it is the inherent fear of making a bad decision, there is ZERO discretion and even less accountabilty , a lower clerk is so afraid of a senior clerk that no decisions are made untill ALL the paperwork is submitted and according to a friend in one Govt department most senior officials NEVER ead the file , they just sign and hope. If it goes wrong they will find a lower scapegoat. 

[Bernietravelling]

IMHO it’s less a problem of paper versus digital …

 

It is more a question of streamlining processes. An overcomplicated process with too many senseless steps, checks, cross-checks and confirmations is still a bad process, if digitized without change.

 

Add in the typical Asian love of micro-management. Don’t empower your staff, don’t trust them, control every tiny step - otherwise you might loose your „power“ and get redundant ????

[Partenavia]

They make the rules about copying all documents, because it seemed like a good idea at the time. Then computers came along. However, by this time the official who had authorized the copying had died. as no one can question this official it's left as it is.

 

[Flink]

On 7/19/2022 at 4:54 AM, gp2002 said:

"So what is stopping the government from implementing digitization on a grand scale?"

 

Common sense, intelligence... I'll stop there ????????

Are we sure we want them to do it all online, given how often these online systems get breached here? Although, I do think it is high time that they implemented a system where the only documents you bring for visa, work permit, etc. renewal are those that have changed since your last renewal. That would, at least, reduce the amount of waste paper they acrue.

[Damrongsak]

The more paperwork you have, the easier it is to shuffle, misfile and conveniently bury things. 

 

[OT, but in the USA, my wife lost/misplaced her certificate of naturalization (citizen certificate).  Applied for a replacement, at a cost of over $500.  More than a year later, they still wanted more proof of citizenship beyond a passport.  They wanted a photocopy of the original certificate.  How in hell can I copy something that is lost?  The original certificate specifically forbid copying/photographing/reproducing.  I had to file a Freedom of Information Act request for any relevant immigration documents.  I lucked out, as they did have a digitized copy of the damned thing and a bit of other "paperwork".  For $500+, they could have looked it up themselves.]