Solar - 8kW Hybrid Inverter w/10kWh (upgraded to 20kWh in Sept. 2022) ESS/battery (not DIY)

[Encid]

14 minutes ago, MJCM said:

I wonder, maybe your installer submitted Paper work to the PEA for net metering?

That is a good point!

@KhunLA?

[KhunLA]

16 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Our 8kW (unofficial) on/off grid system is going 'OFF GRID'

Unofficial = PEA never told we have solar.  You can't see panels from street level.

 

[MJCM]

18 hours ago, KhunLA said:

PEA had installed a 3 phase meter (temporarily) as out of 1 phase TOU meters. 

I think the clue is in the TOU meter, they AFAIK do that via the Digital Meter

 

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Unofficial = PEA never told we have solar.  You can't see panels from street level.

 

Thx. That is our plan as well!

[KhunLA]

First bill post-Solar paid today ????

 

New meter now has 31 units on it, and if no more added before the 28th, 

that bill should be about ... ฿130 per PEA estimator site: 

https://eservice.pea.co.th/EstimateBill/

 

Which is actually a 'huge' increase, (relative) over the Jan2022 estimate @ ฿100

 

That should go down to ฿42, the following bill (Oct) or whatever being connected cost.  As next week we'll be adding another 10kW ESS / battery = -0- PEA units in the future.

 

Seems I underestimated our overnight usage of 4-5kW, and more like 5-6 and being conservative.  Will be more like 10-12kW overnight after new battery hooked in.   That's mainly more AC at sunrise & sunset / 3 hrs worth, being the non conservative wanted, though not really needed, this time of year.

 

Seems I've estimated our daily use about right, and well over 30 units a day, nearing 40 - 50 if sun actually came out all day.  Matching our past Udon Thani bills of ฿5000 ish.   So expect 50 ish units a day (X30) or monthly bills near ฿7000 +/- ... IF ... PEA billed, Feb, March, April, 1st half of May, till rains arrive.  Rental the last 5 yrs was 600-700 units, and 1 small AC used along with poor construction and insulated townhouse.

 

ROI ... guessing 5-7 years, more likely on the lower end, with EV (car) arriving at year's end, hopefully.

 

[MJCM]

34 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

As next week we'll be adding another 10kW ESS / battery

Nice.

 

So now (next week) 20kW ESS.

 

What was the price of the (new) 10kW ESS. 95k I recall?

 

How far do you discharge the ESS?

[sometimewoodworker]

On 8/21/2022 at 4:46 PM, MJCM said:

But the drones you would hear coming unless you are 100's meters away from your PEA pole

You rather over estimate the noise level of drones, not to mention that to be effective they would either be low level flights so masked by vegetation or high level to detect installations so the sound would be masked by the hight, you would also need to be listening for them continuously while an operator needs a short time to detect your usage.

 

Having said that the likelihood of them being used is remote. 

[MJCM]

10 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You rather over estimate the noise level of drones, not to mention that to be effective they would either be low level flights so masked by vegetation or high level to detect installations so the sound would be masked by the hight, you would also need to be listening for them continuously while an operator needs a short time to detect your usage.

 

Having said that the likelihood of them being used is remote. 

They are noisy (those drones) very high pitched.

 

Our house is 60 meters away (straight line) from our PEA meter and we most certainly would hear them, but as you said the likelihood of them being used is remote especially in the sticks.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, MJCM said:

They are noisy (those drones) very high pitched.

There are a verity of drones, the inexpensive ones have small rotors with high RPM  unshielded motors. There are variations that have much larger props that spin much more slowly, different characteristics, with shielded motors so lower pitched. They don’t have the same sound signature. There is one that is 3 years old you can listen to, the Altair Aerial Outlaw SE, that you certainly wouldn’t hear with any kind of foliage around it at much more than 10 metres, you would probably need to be closer than that, it is a 60db one. That is just one and not very new only about $300.

 

So there are versions that you won’t hear at prices that are affordable.

 

However the ROI is small enough that they are unlikely to come looking for you

[KhunLA]

14 hours ago, MJCM said:

Nice.

So now (next week) 20kW ESS.

What was the price of the (new) 10kW ESS. 95k I recall?

How far do you discharge the ESS?

฿100k ... so up 5k

Used 6.5, as low alarm beeps at 35%, which case I turn the grid on.  Only hit that twice, but that's using conservatively near sunset.

 

Guessing it will be closer to 10kw overnight, when using more AC at sunset and not rainy season.

 

So both ESSs will be at about 50% before being charged back up.

[KhunLA]

12 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

However the ROI is small enough that they are unlikely to come looking for you

Don't know if using a smaller system, but we were giving more to the grid than taking.  PEA definitely benefiting and not even sunny out.

 

Depending on the drone, but they can be very quiet and you'd never hear them.  Kind of irrelevant, as it's not like you can hide if you did hear it.

[007 RED]

On 8/21/2022 at 4:37 PM, Crossy said:

 

This is something I've pondered in the past.

 

There is no doubt they can monitor the HV trunk supplies, but there are no CTs on our village transformer (on LV or HV) so down to village level is unlikely.

 

Now whether our few kW of solar is noticed (it would be seen as a load reduction rather than actual -ve power unless everyone was dead and using no juice at all) in amongst the big scheme of things ...

 

And if they do notice are they going to expend manpower going looking? (other than the man on the ground meter readers). I did note that our meter chap came rather later in the day than usual this last time, could just have been running late.

 

I've decided it's not worth worrying about, if they are sufficiently concerned that they are going looking then so be it.

 

It wouldn't beyond possibility that they could hire some drone operators to go looking, this is being done in the US where certain states actively discourage even off-grid solar - the supply authorities make less $$$.

Sorry to butt in on this interesting post, but there is something than may be worth considering, albeit fairly remote here in Thailand.

 

I think that its fairly unlikely that the PEA will get a drone to do a search to find any untoward solar systems.   They would have to know where to look in the first place.   However there is something that a lot of local authorities (planning Departments) in the UK have adopted as it helps to ensure that properties are taxed within the correct banding. 

 

A friend of mine who live in a very remote rural area decided to have a conservatory built at the rear of the house.  The builder (reputable firm) advised that the size of the addition was below that which required planning permission, so construction went ahead.  I should add that because of the remote location, the conservatory can't be seen from the nearby road, or any neighbors.

 

Approximately 18 months after the conservatory was constructed, my friend's wife who was at home at the time, had a visit from a local authority planning officer.  He advised her that he was aware that there had been an addition to the property and that their records showed that no application for planning permission had been submitted.  He asked her to show him to the rear of the house where he inspected, and took photos of, the conservatory. 

 

During the conversation with the planning officer, my friend's wife noticed that he had photos of the property which she recognized as satellite images.  She asked him where he had got them.  The officer advised that they (the local authority) purchase high quality digital images every 6 months from the same company which Google use for their low grade satellite images.  He explained that the digital images are fed into an AI system which compares the current image with the image obtained 6 months previously.  The system spews out any anomalies which are then investigated.  Hence his visit.  As it turned out the builder was correct, the conservatory was under the size which required planning permission.

 

Apparently the cost of the high grade digital satellite images is not that great, but I very much doubt that the local PEA will cotton onto this survey method.

 

Take a look at Google maps of your area, and switch to satellite image.  You may be surprised.  Spot the difference in the images below.

The above Google Map image was taken early 2021, the one below taken earlier this year

 

Have you spotted the solar panels.... 4 of them on the blue roof (white with black dots).

[sometimewoodworker]

36 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Take a look at Google maps of your area, and switch to satellite image. 

Better still go to Google earth, then you can scroll through all the images available of your area and the differences will jump out.

 

It would not be a stretch for a PEA employee to be tasked with the job of looking for solar installs, then one of the local police fly boys to be told to take pictures during one of his training flights.

 

The BIB flyers already do that with out being asked, one of the locals has gifted us with several helicopter images of our house.

 

The fact that at the moment there is no real incentive means that nobody is doing it now. But everything that is needed is in place so it would not be difficult to start.

[Crossy]

35 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Have you spotted the solar panels.... 4 of them on the blue roof (white with black dots).

 

Yeah, and I see the new house on the other side of the road where you hijacked the crane from to install them ???? 

[Pink7]

Its limited how many years they can continue to burn gas/fuel to produce electricity. All who install solar should been applauded. The Government should offer intensives and/or financing to help the average people here to get solar on their roofs. 

 

Pink

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Pink7 said:

Its limited how many years they can continue to burn gas/fuel to produce electricity.

Ballpark idea how much longer from 1 site:

https://group.met.com/en/mind-the-fyouture/mindthefyouture/when-will-fossil-fuels-run-out

[Pink7]

47 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Ballpark idea how much longer from 1 site:

https://group.met.com/en/mind-the-fyouture/mindthefyouture/when-will-fossil-fuels-run-out

Availability is only 1 factor. Price, climate and politics are other factors who may kick in before mention sources emptied.

 

Pink

[Kanchon]

Thanks a lot for all your useful information!

[sezze]

On 9/8/2022 at 6:38 AM, KhunLA said:

Ballpark idea how much longer from 1 site:

https://group.met.com/en/mind-the-fyouture/mindthefyouture/when-will-fossil-fuels-run-out

This has been said many times , from the 80s when we would have run out of oil around 2000 . There are 1st of all still oil/gas fields found regularly . 2nd the techniques used now are not the same as 20y ago and won't be 20y from now . Making it possible to reach places not possible before . This does not mean we just got to burn it , since most of it is needed for making other products . And these go very very far , including your food , medicines , clothes , and even your solar panels , wind power and everything you see around you .

[KhunLA]

going off topic ...

... running out of threads to follow 

[KhunLA]

First truly sunny AM day we've had since system was installed, back on 4 August.  Passing the test of negative cooperation from the sun.  Really total gray overcast to partly cloudy every day since, most with rain, drizzle to downpours.

 

ESS topped up, 40-100% in about 1.5 hrs, (0730-0900hrs), while small AC & TV on (~0.5kWh), while doing so.

 

[KhunLA]

Too late to edit ... nice to know, that 1 ESS topped up 60% in a short time.  When 2nd is added (hence the edit), next week hopefully, as installer at Patts installing a few systems.  then another 10kWh ESS, even if both down to 40% would be topped up before noon ????

 

If extremely overcast, as of late, then really don't need 20kWh of ESS.   If brutal Feb, March, April, May waiting for the rains, then will need overnight, but also sunny (and brutal) during the day, so should top up fast, or at worse, well before nightfall.

 

Reassuring to know 'off grid' is possible, though still connected to, JIC.

[KhunLA]

Rainy season is back ... this morning's view

 

This time yesterday, sunny and ESS just about full (40-100%), with AC running.

 

Today, @ 55%, with no AC running, though since not sunny, fan is comfy enough.

 

vs yesterday:

[KhunLA]

Since we now have a digital meter, and yet to have a full sunny day since solar installed, I guess we'll never know what our full solar production potential can be.  Unless they start paying for feed in to the grid, along with approving the Deye 8kW hybrid inverter.

 

Until then, our best production, and AC abuse day was last month, 18th August.  The day was even partly cloudy, shown by the peek & valleys, as the sun was blocked by the clouds, in & out all day.

 

Production, shy of 50kW, consumption, just breaking 30kw

IF PEA 30kW x 30 days for a monthly bill = ฿4,956.94 

https://eservice.pea.co.th/EstimateBill/

 

Blue/production, Red/consumption, Below/to the grid

ROI - ฿445k / 5k = 89 months = 7.4 yrs

We don't even have the MG ZS EV yet

ZS with a battery warranty of 8 yrs ... ????

[KhunLA]

The other extreme, a full day while out & about.

About 5kW for 24 hr period - 2 sm frigs (9&13.1cu) and 1 light on ????

5 x 30 = 150 = ฿714 (PEA)  not exactly cheap if Thai / minimum wage.

Take that 1 thought further, and ฿1000 a month, times 5yrs

equals ฿60k = 3kW inverter + 6 panels (540w), possibly even installed.

 

3kW should produce 300-400kW a month

equals about a ฿1500-฿2100 PEA bill ... hmm

 

Of course if working stiff, and everybody working or at school during the day ... oh krap 

 

 

[KhunLA]

Was going to put this on the 'how low can you go' thread, but more appropriate here.

 

Since our solar was installed less than a month after we moved in, actually a long week after, and we had no bill at the PKK PEA in our name, they really had nothing to compare to.

 

During the build, had a temp meter, then house registered and real meter install, though also a 'temp' meter, as they were out of 1 phase meters.   So used a 3 phase meter for about 2 ish weeks, before replacing with our new digital meter.

 

On installing digital meter, since reading was so low, 'installer' did ask if we had solar.  Confirmed that we did, even though you can't see the panels from the road.  Lying is almost against my religion.  He could have easily assumed we haven't completely moved in yet, as still looking the construction site, front wall anyway.  Or possibly, just a standard 'install' question.

 

I expected an inspection and hopefully a cordial conversation with said inspector, if & when Thankfully never happened, and they don't seem to care.  Wife had to inquire about 1st bill, since they had to combine the meter readings at office.  First bill printed out as 'blank' and place in 'box'.  Called on phone, told calculating, call back.  I'm thinking ... Oh Krap.

 

Wife says next day, she transferred money and paid bill, 39 units total.  First 3 ish weeks of solar, was testing.  First week, straight solar/ESS use, no feed back to grid.  2nd solar & grid, no battery use.  3rd back to solar/ESS use, as testing done and got the info I was curious about.  Those 3 weeks we used 192 units, and fed back 153 to the grid during 8 of those days, while exporting was on.  So fair deal for both of us.  Use more than we usually would, as wanting to push the system***

 

Installer did state that our PKK office was friendlier than others when he did register systems.  Also said if they ever do question the install, since unapproved 8kW inverter, he'd simply swap it out for an approved inverter, for any inspection.

 

***Pushing the system, inverter will produce the 8kW per hour, and our best on partly cloudy day was shy of 50kW produced, during 12hr of daylight.  Get a sunny day, and 6 prime hours of sun, and you're knocking on 50kW produced.  

 

During that test day (50kW), I turned everything on that would be needed on one of those brutal March / April days.  Both ACs on full, 22°, and it was frickin' freezing ????

 

Consumed 30kW that day, and something we never had done in the past, or won't be expecting a 1000 unit monthly bill in the future.  No need to run 2 ACs all day, especially at that temp.  Might get close to that after the car arrives, but that's a lot of local driving.

 

Those thinking about installing solar, hope that helps a bit.  If new construction, don't bet on not getting a digital meter.  Those with meter already, I think they will eventually, be replacing all with digitals in the future.  Possibly a good thing, as they may actually start paying for feed in to the grid.

[KhunLA]

Done ... 20kW ESS ????

[MJCM]

????????

[Encid]

Congratulations! 

That is a nice and neat install.

 

So the entire system cost was ฿445K installed? 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Encid said:

Congratulations! 

That is a nice and neat install.

 

So the entire system cost was ฿445K installed? 

Yes ... I'm thinking, at best, if DIY, might be able to knock off 50-100k.

 

My back, no real tools or crew, it wasn't even a consideration for me.

 

Anyone considering, take note that the 2nd ESS was 5 ish % (5k) more and only one month later.

 

So don't procrastinate too long, especially if going with ESS, prices are going up fast I think.  That supply & demand thing, along with major wake up call since Ukraine & blatant price gouging.  

 

Since PEA's price increase our installer is non-stop now.  Had to hire another complete crew.

 

Hindsight, as I stated earlier, the only thing I would really do different, is get two 5kW s instead of the 8kW inverter.

 

Happy Energizing ????????????

[KhunLA]

Something I don't expect to see too often, if ever again.  -0- consumption ????  Pissing down raining, and still producing 1kW.  Buy as many good panels that you can afford.

 

I had to put my hand on the frigs to verify, and no vibration, so compressors off at the moment.  Been producing 0.75kW to 1.25kW as the rains lessen up.

 

Why you want to plan and build with best materials you can afford. Insulated block, and insulated steel roof w/insulated ceiling. Along with plenty of glass for ambient light. Lots of shading/extended roof to keep sunshine & heat out. Strangely, ambient temp is low enough, that right 'now', frigs don't need to be running to maintain inside temp. Obviously a RARE moment, but pretty cool none the less.