Trump under investigation for potential violations of Espionage Act

[Walker88]

2 hours ago, Walker88 said:

It took 5 days for 45's "Brain Trust" (sic) to come up with that ludicrous excuse? That is the best they can do?

 

One would have to have the IQ of a turnip to believe it, though I guess that means around 80% of his cult is on board.

And just to continue with this absurdity.....how is it that 45 can claim 'planted'---which would mean on Monday---but that 45 declassified it before leaving office?

 

Let's set up a parlor game....45's Next Excuse (Lie) is going to be ???????

 

I almost have sympathy for his cult, because even they are going to have trouble keeping up with the ever-changing lie.

[placeholder]

26 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I'd like to see a full FBI investigation on how Jared Kushner secured a $2 billion investment for his Affinity Partners private equity firm from a fund led by the Saudi crown prince and whether that was the reason Trump was pushing for nuclear sensitive information to be given to the Saudi's.

 

But then this is not about Jared, although he may well have his mitts on some of the classified docs, the FBI are currently checking for fingerprints.

Actually, what's far worse is the fact that while Jared was officially a government employee the Qatari govt. investment fund leased a building that Jared had bought and that was threatening financial ruin for the Kushner family business. It's a 99 year lease that's a sweetheart deal and makes no financial sense. But what's 1 billion dollars to the Qataris? This was done at a time when they were seeking help to find a rapprochement with the Saudis. And under whose purview was the Middle East? I don't think I need to supply the answer.

[heybruce]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Actually, what's far worse is the fact that while Jared was officially a government employee the Qatari govt. investment fund leased a building that Jared had bought and that was financially threatening ruin for the Kushner family business. It's a 99 year lease that's a sweetheart deal and makes no financial sense. But what's 1 billion dollars to the Qataris? This was done at a time when they were seeking help to find a rapprochement with the Saudia. And under who purview was the Middle East? I don't think I need to supply the answer.

I really hope some conflict of interest investigations are in work.

[Chomper Higgot]

50 minutes ago, mikeymike100 said:

If the authorities can find enough evidence to charge him with some crime, then the case goes to court, there is a fair trial, the jury decide on guilty or not guilty, then that's all fine. If guilty the Judge decides his fate?

However currently we have the MSM, social media, members on this forum etc deciding his guilt before any of the due process has taken place, which to me seems irrational and disturbing.

Its not a case of defending Trump, but everyone should be the given the chance to due process.

 

Due process is something that takes place, as you yourself describe, within the criminal Justice system.

 

Opinions, here and elsewhere are not part of the judicial process.

[Liverpool Lou]

17 hours ago, simple1 said:

21 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

What's he been charged with?   Oh, yes...nothing!

Didn't claim trump has been charged

You said  "if found guilty, hopefully the maximum sentence will be applied", clearly suggesting that you thought that he had been charged with something.   A person who faces no charges cannot be found guilty.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You said that hope he is found guilty, clearly suggesting that you thought that he had been charged with something.   A person who faces no charges cannot be found guilty.

Pedantry won’t save him.

[Walker88]

8 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

What laws did Hunter break and what evidence do you have of them?

How do any crimes of Hunter absolve Trump from his suspected criminality?

He's trying to play Three Dimensional Whataboutism.

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I'd like to see a full FBI investigation on how Jared Kushner secured a $2 billion investment for his Affinity Partners private equity firm from a fund led by the Saudi crown prince and whether that was the reason Trump was pushing for nuclear sensitive information to be given to the Saudi's.

 

But then this is not about Jared, although he may well have his mitts on some of the classified docs, the FBI are currently checking for fingerprints.

I'm just wondering how many of those documents have been copied by Trump, IMO an office as palatial as his would have a photocopier somewhere.

 

This is starting to smell of Aldrich Ames.

[Walker88]

45's latest excuse about 'regularly taking home work and having a standing order to declassify anything I took' is the kind of absurdity that even makes mis-scheduling a major presser at Four Seasons Landscaping, the one next to the (dill dough) shop, look professional and not the egregious mistake that it was.

[Liverpool Lou]

20 hours ago, placeholder said:

21 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Amazing how so many keyboard-bashers don't realise that. so far, it hasn't come up with anything much.

You wish. How do you know? Have you seen the retrieved documents?

Have you?  Have you seen anything that suggests that they have anything?   Have you heard any reports of charges being made?

[KanchanaburiGuy]

Donald Trump is a narcissistic buffoon. As a narcissistic buffoon, he would believe rules only apply to him if he decides they apply to him. And that means that whenever he can justify to himself that a certain rule doesn't apply......... that's what he's going to do!

 

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Now, as a former President, Donald Trump probably gets exposed to classified materials each and every day. Former Presidents are kept abreast of current and ongoing events in case they're needed as a final fallback should a catastrophe occur, and all Constitutional Leadership be killed or incapacitated. (When all the "qualified" people are unavailable, the next logical  extra-Constitutional choice to lead the country......... is someone who has done the job before!)

 

So, how might this shape what Trump has apparently done?...........

 

First, because Mr Trump gets handed classified material on a regular basis.......... probably daily......... it would be easy for a person like him to conclude he is entitled  to keep and store whatever classified materials he has in his possession. That's how HE would probably interpret it!

 

Second, while there are processes and procedures that should be followed to declassify documents, there also must be exceptions extended to a President for "exigent circumstances." For example, say Canada is decides to attack Greenland based on faulty information, and the President has a "classified document" in his hands that can PROVE the information is false, thereby averting a major catastrophe.

 

What he has is a "classified document" that can end the crisis. What he doesn't have............ is TIME!

 

The President must have the ability to "instantly declassify" that document, to prevent this major mistake. He has to be able to react in the moment, without fear of censure, reprisal or impeachment. 

 

A narcissistic buffoon like Mr Trump would likely interpret this to mean..............."I have the right to declassify anything I want, whenever I want!"

 

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-----------------

 

Because a narcissistic buffoon is trying find any and every reason to say that someone else's rules should not apply to them........... they would think just like that!

 

Am I saying Trump deserves to be let off the hook for whatever "hook" he may be on? Nope!

 

I'm just trying to show that from Trump's point of view........... and with Trump's personality.......... there are reasons why he may not believe he's done anything wrong!

 

I mean, how would YOU react if someone gave you classified material on a regular basis......... maybe even daily....... then suddenly claims you're doing something wrong by being in possession of "classified material?"

 

Personally........ I'd at least be a little baffled by the inconsistency of it!

 

How about you?

 

 

[FritsSikkink]

On 8/13/2022 at 8:13 AM, pomchop said:

Troll Much?

Probably just stupid

[Liverpool Lou]

21 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

21 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

He hasn't been charged with anything, never mind espionage.

There's an awful lot of evidence that's out in the public domain. The endless lying, the Mueller investigation evidence (which certainly did not exonerate Trump of wrongdoing), the January 6th committee evidence, tax and banking records in New York, Georgia election officials sworn testimony and recorded phone calls documenting Trump's behavior, the "top secret" documents seized during the execution of the search warrant at Mar-al-Lago. There's a clear pattern of conduct, more than enough evidence to draw conclusions about his character and integrity.

And absolutely nothing that has led to any criminal charges.

 

"The endless lying, the Mueller investigation evidence (which certainly did not exonerate Trump of wrongdoing), the January 6th committee evidence"

What?  Sarcasm, yes?

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, Liverpool Lou said:

And absolutely nothing that has led to any criminal charges.

 

"The endless lying, the Mueller investigation evidence (which certainly did not exonerate Trump of wrongdoing), the January 6th committee evidence"

What?  Sarcasm, yes?

Has not yet led to criminal charges.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Donald Trump is a narcissistic buffoon. As a narcissistic buffoon, he would believe rules only apply to him if he decides they apply to him. And that means that whenever he can justify to himself that a certain rule doesn't apply......... that's what he's going to do!

 

------------------

------------------

 

Now, as a former President, Donald Trump probably gets exposed to classified materials each and every day. Former Presidents are kept abreast of current and ongoing events in case they're needed as a final fallback should a catastrophe occur, and all Constitutional Leadership be killed or incapacitated. (When all the "qualified" people are unavailable, the next logical  extra-Constitutional choice to lead the country......... is someone who has done the job before!)

 

So, how might this shape what Trump has apparently done?...........

 

First, because Mr Trump gets handed classified material on a regular basis.......... probably daily......... it would be easy for a person like him to conclude he is entitled  to keep and store whatever classified materials he has in his possession. That's how HE would probably interpret it!

 

Second, while there are processes and procedures that should be followed to declassify documents, there also must be exceptions extended to a President for "exigent circumstances." For example, say Canada is decides to attack Greenland based on faulty information, and the President has a "classified document" in his hands that can PROVE the information is false, thereby averting a major catastrophe.

 

What he has is a "classified document" that can end the crisis. What he doesn't have............ is TIME!

 

The President must have the ability to "instantly declassify" that document, to prevent this major mistake. He has to be able to react in the moment, without fear of censure, reprisal or impeachment. 

 

A narcissistic buffoon like Mr Trump would likely interpret this to mean..............."I have the right to declassify anything I want, whenever I want!"

 

-----------------

-----------------

 

Because a narcissistic buffoon is trying find any and every reason to say that someone else's rules should not apply to them........... they would think just like that!

 

Am I saying Trump deserves to be let off the hook for whatever "hook" he may be on? Nope!

 

I'm just trying to show that from Trump's point of view........... and with Trump's personality.......... there are reasons why he may not believe he's done anything wrong!

 

I mean, how would YOU react if someone gave you classified material on a regular basis......... maybe even daily....... then suddenly claims you're doing something wrong by being in possession of "classified material?"

 

Personally........ I'd at least be a little baffled by the inconsistency of it!

 

How about you?

 

 

Where did Trump get handed those documents? At McDonalds? Or in the Oval Office?

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Have you?  Have you seen anything that suggests that they have anything?   Have you heard any reports of charges being made?

Well reports of top secret documents being recovered.

[Liverpool Lou]

21 hours ago, Berkshire said:

21 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

He hasn't been charged with anything, never mind espionage.

Look at the thread title.  We all know he hasn't been charged yet. 

I can read and I've seen the title, thanks.  Some posters clearly don't know that he's not been charged.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I'm just wondering how many of those documents have been copied by Trump, IMO an office as palatial as his would have a photocopier somewhere.

 

This is starting to smell of Aldrich Ames.

I seriously doubt that. Though it is suspect that Trump actually had a meeting with Putin where no adviser were present. Not even an American translator. 

I'm obviously just hazarding a guess but mostly I think it was his way of trolling the successor administration. His way of asserting that he didn't recognize its legitimacy. If there's one thing Trump has a predilection for, it's trolling.  And also he probably wanted a few trophies to impress guests at his resort. Like evidence of his bromance with Kim.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

7 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Have you?  Have you seen anything that suggests that they have anything?   Have you heard any reports of charges being made?

Well reports of top secret documents being recovered.

...with no details of what the documents are, or what they contain.

[FritsSikkink]

On 8/13/2022 at 10:17 AM, Tippaporn said:

This warrant is useless for shedding any light on the reason for the raid as it doesn't include any predicate.

you mean you either didn't bother to read attachment B in the link, don't understand it or are just telling porkies.

[Tippaporn]

15 minutes ago, Tropposurfer said:

Its interesting to read the comments herein on this latest Trumpian debacle.

 

I write here as a long experienced mental health clinician out of a deep concern for the American people and indeed for the world.

I do not write these words to pass the time or to hear myself I write with the gravest of clinical intent.

 

Watching the utube and facebook feeds from across the news (world and US) both mainstream and podcast/online is also horrifying and fascinating at the same time.

Thankfully as one legal commentator put it succinctly ; 'Trump is playing checkers and Garland is playing Master level chess'.

 

The responses from the right has/is generally speaking horrific, with some infrequent exceptions e.g. Mr Doocy on Fox and Friends calling out a seditionist big-liar senator (excuse me I forgot his name).

From the left (or perhaps more 'centralist' is a less propagandist and realistic nomenclature) has mostly been less hysterical and for the majority of feeds based in fact and legal truth.

I have seen some sensationalist and over-reach by some 'so-called' leftist fake media' (MAGA label) reporters but by-and-large there seems to have been little cult-like process in the mainstream.

 

If one were to NOT listen to the plethora of actual security, highest level ex-government agency bosses, constitutional and security legal senior (many lifelong Republicans serving multiple Republican Presidents) experts interviewed who have ACTUALLY held positions dealing with and completely cognisant with these very types of docs, the specific rigid defined procedures in their handing etc, and the laws pertaining to same, but only listen to extremely compromised people such as McCarthy, and the rest of the usual group of politician sycophant suspects. All buoyed up and complicit with the constant loudspeaker drone of Fox and other anarchy propagandist outlets. Then it is understandable and predictable how many gorge themselves on such poison and dwell in delusion, thus moving inexorably towards the edges of their own sanity.

Lots of people ask the question how come the Fascist right under Trump is so ignorant and narrow and yet so cunning and successful?

The answer is deep yet simple.

 

 

The downfall of those like Trump is always self-constructed so to those who say its 'the others' who are bringing him down like the rest of Republican Party/MAGA delusional view of him; You've lost your capacity to see reality and are simply lost in your own and a mass-delusion that grips MAGA.

 

For those not utterly lost in the mass psychosis (which for some is so intense and all-pervading as to qualify as actual mental illness) the echo-chamber of what-is-the-now seditionist, completely compromised, democracy threatening Republican right, the obscenity that is this now that Party, excuse me 'cult' is starkly, plainly seen. 

 

In am in agreement with some of those Masters of American history, politics, sociology, a hundred ps psychiatrists and law who have spoken i.e. The United States is facing, and approaching, in present time, the precipice of survival or dissolution either by open civil war or such polarised bitter institutionalised sabotage and obstructionism as to crumble brick by brick imminent and eminently prosecuted right-wing hoped for and worked towards alternative demise.

 

Trump is without doubt a severely disturbed man and due to his obvious ultra-toxic pathology a threat to anyone and anything he has contact with ... Anyone except extremely skilled psychiatric carers.

 

People like McConnell and McCarthy may think they are using Trump to satiate their own (below stated) perversions but they too are not only willing co-creators, but dupes to Trumps destructive pathology.   

The obvious toxic primers to Trumps very being is totally lost on those who are themselves lost 'in' him because they too are in many parts exactly like him.

 

This handing over of the self to another in the case of MAGA and the Republican Party to Trump is predicated on a recognition by these folks in Trump of what is in them i.e. xenophobia, racism, anti-semitism, misogyny, fear of never-enough, greed, lust for power, and insatiable need for more and more, sadism, masochism, rage, neurotic needs around control, and a shopping-list of other neuroses, repressions and suppressions.

 

The speaking of (out aloud now) of the annihilation of those seen as 'the other' is a culture and world destroying regression (Trump has lived his entire life driven by this co-foundational premise).

The sycophancy we witness is not explained away as simple political expediency, it is in the case of many Republican politicians these same basest of human perversion in them.

For MAGA Trump IS their 'vehicle' their 'saviour' from that which is externalised, the figurehead, the 'open valve' if you will to finally project without further subtly or subterfuge dark anti-humane beliefs. 

The history of fascism in the US is well documented, real, and historical truth. It is NOT a creation of a 'new-now fake-media', not a propaganda lie of the left it is real.

 

This entity, this phenomena was alive, powerful (influenced and helped drive the isolationist posture of the US pre-WWII) is without any shadow of doubt seeing a resurgence today.

Equally sure is that Trump and the neo-Gobbel's, Eichmann's, Himmler's, quasi-fool Hess's, Bormann's, Goerings, Mengele's and Heydrich's are before us today in politics, on national tv and podcasts, smashing their way into Congress, and marching with torches. All are preaching annihilation of 'the other' to tens of millions of cult-lost people.

 

If you are one who believes Trump to be a good person, to have spoken truthfully, to be a victim, to be the 'saviour' for the US people then I implore you to seek clinical help immediately.

Is this what the left actually believes?

"This handing over of the self to another in the case of MAGA . . . "

". . . is predicated on a recognition by these folks in Trump of what is in them i.e. xenophobia, racism, anti-semitism, misogyny, fear of never-enough, greed, lust for power, and insatiable need for more and more, sadism, masochism, rage, neurotic needs around control, and a shopping-list of other neuroses, repressions and suppressions."

My question is this:  How is it possible that a claimed professional mental health clinician could so mangle a diagnosis and mutilate the patient at the same time?
 

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Have you?  Have you seen anything that suggests that they have anything?   Have you heard any reports of charges being made?

You're the one who claimed the search hasn't come up with anything much? I asked you for evidence. You've got none. As for charges being made, how do you think prosecutions with lots of evidence to sift through work? You actually expect charges to be made in less than a week. That's a ridiculous expectationi.

[Liverpool Lou]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

5 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

And absolutely nothing that has led to any criminal charges.

 

"The endless lying, the Mueller investigation evidence (which certainly did not exonerate Trump of wrongdoing), the January 6th committee evidence"

What?  Sarcasm, yes?

Expand  

Has not yet led to criminal charges.

I know. That's what I've been saying.

[mikeymike100]

16 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Due process is something that takes place, as you yourself describe, within the criminal Justice system.

 

Opinions, here and elsewhere are not part of the judicial process.

I totally agree! I didn't say they were?

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

...with no details of what the documents are, or what they contain.

"Agents removed 11 sets of documents, including some marked "TS/SCI", a designation for material that could cause "exceptionally grave" damage to US national security."

[Liverpool Lou]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

4 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

...with no details of what the documents are, or what they contain.

"Agents removed 11 sets of documents, including some marked "TS/SCI", a designation for material that could cause "exceptionally grave" damage to US national security."

...with no details of what the documents are, or what they actually contain!

[FritsSikkink]

On 8/13/2022 at 11:03 AM, Tippaporn said:

"All crimes alleged in a warrant are potential. Whether an actual crime has been committed is for a judge or jury to decide."

Well I'm glad that at least you have admitted to the fact that Trump is innocent of any crime until proven guilty.  We can speculate all day long as to whether he is or isn't.  That's useless, too.

They found top secret documents, which is a crime, stop spreading BS

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Donald Trump is a narcissistic buffoon. As a narcissistic buffoon, he would believe rules only apply to him if he decides they apply to him. And that means that whenever he can justify to himself that a certain rule doesn't apply......... that's what he's going to do!

 

------------------

------------------

 

Now, as a former President, Donald Trump probably gets exposed to classified materials each and every day. Former Presidents are kept abreast of current and ongoing events in case they're needed as a final fallback should a catastrophe occur, and all Constitutional Leadership be killed or incapacitated. (When all the "qualified" people are unavailable, the next logical  extra-Constitutional choice to lead the country......... is someone who has done the job before!)

 

So, how might this shape what Trump has apparently done?...........

 

First, because Mr Trump gets handed classified material on a regular basis.......... probably daily......... it would be easy for a person like him to conclude he is entitled  to keep and store whatever classified materials he has in his possession. That's how HE would probably interpret it!

 

Second, while there are processes and procedures that should be followed to declassify documents, there also must be exceptions extended to a President for "exigent circumstances." For example, say Canada is decides to attack Greenland based on faulty information, and the President has a "classified document" in his hands that can PROVE the information is false, thereby averting a major catastrophe.

 

What he has is a "classified document" that can end the crisis. What he doesn't have............ is TIME!

 

The President must have the ability to "instantly declassify" that document, to prevent this major mistake. He has to be able to react in the moment, without fear of censure, reprisal or impeachment. 

 

A narcissistic buffoon like Mr Trump would likely interpret this to mean..............."I have the right to declassify anything I want, whenever I want!"

 

-----------------

-----------------

 

Because a narcissistic buffoon is trying find any and every reason to say that someone else's rules should not apply to them........... they would think just like that!

 

Am I saying Trump deserves to be let off the hook for whatever "hook" he may be on? Nope!

 

I'm just trying to show that from Trump's point of view........... and with Trump's personality.......... there are reasons why he may not believe he's done anything wrong!

 

I mean, how would YOU react if someone gave you classified material on a regular basis......... maybe even daily....... then suddenly claims you're doing something wrong by being in possession of "classified material?"

 

Personally........ I'd at least be a little baffled by the inconsistency of it!

 

How about you?

 

 

You think its really that hard for someone to understand these rules? Even if that someone is a malevolent, narcissistic buffoon? If that were the case, he's mentally incapacitated. We know from the accounts of what happened after the election that Trump doesn't care about rules or evidence or procedures. 

[NanLaew]

14 hours ago, bunnydrops said:

I guess what puzzles me the most was why did the government have to go and say "pretty please" return the docs. Why wouldn't DT have just avoided this mess and just return them? What did think he would gain from keeping them? As for the he declassified the docs. Even some declassified docs that have to do with national security still need to be kept in  government hands.

Fundamentally because DT considers himself to STILL be the elected POTUS. As far as he's concerned, he's just on a four year furlough until this aberration of 'The Steal' is resolved in his favor.

[FritsSikkink]

On 8/13/2022 at 11:07 AM, Tippaporn said:

I highlighted the important part of your post.  Why is there no mention of the fact that Trump was fully cooperating with the National Archives and therefore why a raid was necessary?  Any takers on answering that question?

He didn't fully cooperate as he still had top secret documents in his possession, another lie.