15 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes if you have security clearance and permission to have taken them at the time...........lol. Not sure what point you're trying to make? That's not whats being suggested in the

 Three points 

 

1. do you know Biden had security clearance and permission to take the documents. 

2. If he had as you are grasping at "security clearance" why would his attorneys have to report them after all according to your unsubstantited assertion he would be permitted to have the records>

3. Even if a person has security clearance and permission to have classified documents the law is very clear that the person must properly safeguard them.  Having them in a garage is hardly what any reasonable person would consider safe.  

As mentioned, there is an extensive security detail and protocol at Mar Largo plus secret service agents.  Not true at Biden's garage. 

5 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Not the same and false equivalence. Have been explained by many here. One is a mistake of about a dozen classified documents and handled promptly with full cooperation while the other is a crime with willful intent to obstruct and hide hundreds of classified documents. Simple as that. Not hard to understand by rational people.

 

Intent is not an element of the crime of mishandling classified government  documents, mere possession of same is enough for conviction.

5 hours ago, heybruce said:

No, especially egregious in the case of the former President who wouldn't release the classified and other documents after months of negotiation.  It took a search warrant to retrieve the documents illegally taken from the White House.

Over forty years working at the highest levels of the federal government and twinkle toes Biden doesn't know (or doesn't care or thinks laws don't apply to him) how to handle classified documents. You can't make this stuff up!

Just now, Pattaya Spotter said:

Over forty years working at the highest levels of the federal government and twinkle toes Biden doesn't know (or doesn't care or thinks laws don't apply to him) how to handle classified documents. You can't make this stuff up!

And yet here you are making up stuff about him willfully keeping the documents without proof. If he is found to have done so then he'll be playing canasta with Trump.

A post with a screen shot of a news item has been removed as there was no supporting link provided to the source. 

 

Some bickering posts have been removed.

1 hour ago, Longwood50 said:

 Three points 

 

1. do you know Biden had security clearance and permission to take the documents. 

2. If he had as you are grasping at "security clearance" why would his attorneys have to report them after all according to your unsubstantited assertion he would be permitted to have the records>

3. Even if a person has security clearance and permission to have classified documents the law is very clear that the person must properly safeguard them.  Having them in a garage is hardly what any reasonable person would consider safe.  

As mentioned, there is an extensive security detail and protocol at Mar Largo plus secret service agents.  Not true at Biden's garage. 

1. No do you?

2. See point one.

3. Agreed

 

"As mentioned, there is an extensive security detail and protocol at Mar Largo plus secret service agents.  Not true at Biden's garage."

 

The security detail was NOT assigned to the storage area: "the Justice Department had noted that Mar-a-Lago did not have a “secure location authorized for the storage of classified information.”

 

Inside Mar-a-Lago, Where Thousands Partied Near Secret Files

With the exception of the Trump family suite, members and their guests have access to much of the 20-acre property.

Most of the classified documents in August were found in a storage area, which is accessible through two sets of arched doors, people familiar with the property told The Times. The doors are near the pool area, a popular event space.

"the Justice Department had noted that Mar-a-Lago did not have a “secure location authorized for the storage of classified information.”

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/15/us/mar-a-lago-trump-documents.html

 

Lawyers received instructions to secure Trump's document room months before the FBI search at Mar-a-Lago: report

Former President Trump met with investigators months before the FBI search on Monday, 

Months before the raid on his Mar-a-Lago residence, former President Donald Trump's lawyers recieved instructions to "secure the room" in which he stored his documents, sources told CNN. The sources told CNN aides added a padlock in order to secure the room. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-asked-lawyers-add-padlock-office-before-fbi-search-2022-8

Biden, as ex VP had the same security detail Trump had (for 6 moths  after and after he announced as a candidate for the 2020 election) so claiming that Trump could leave his documents lying around anywhere in MAL applies to Biden as well.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/03/03/biden-do-former-vice-presidents-have-secret-service-protection/4948807002/

1 hour ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Over forty years working at the highest levels of the federal government...

So, because of such peanut problem it would be pity not to have him for another 4 years in the highest post. 

2 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Now you are also making a "fact" out of something that has not been established. 

Irrespective of whether you have security clearance or not, mishandling or failure to secure classified documents is a crime.  The storage of documents in a garage would hardly be appropriate.  So you suggesting that if he had clearance that would be ok is truly a farse. 

Also, why would Biden attorneys declare them if as you suggest he received clearance to have them. 

As said, Trumps lawyers had been negotiating for over a year.  They were contesting whether some of the records were subject to the subpoena and also contesting if some of the records had been declassified.  

Neither of those exist with Biden.  

Biden's actions are even worse than Hillary Clintons who had classified information on her server secured in a bathroom closet

Clearly you have little or no experience working with classified.

 

Intentional mishandling of classified is not a crime.  In offices where classified is dealt with on a daily basis mistakes happen.  They are dealt with, usually with training, counseling, or, in the event of repeat violations of proper procedures, reprimands, reassignment or firing.  It's a bad thing, but not a crime.

 

There is no indication of criminal conduct here.  It is also unlikely that Biden himself was the one doing the administrative task of monitoring and securing classified material.  This is probably a case of staff making mistakes.

 

Trump's lawyers negotiating/stalling for over a year on the return of material that clearly did not belong to Trump and that he had no right to keep is hardly laudable.  Why do you keep bringing it up?  The National Archives should have been notified immediately after the material was discovered and returned as soon as possible.  That's what Biden's lawyer did, and Trump's lawyers failed to do.  Failure to do this is a crime.

 

 

2 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

 Three points 

 

1. do you know Biden had security clearance and permission to take the documents. 

2. If he had as you are grasping at "security clearance" why would his attorneys have to report them after all according to your unsubstantited assertion he would be permitted to have the records>

3. Even if a person has security clearance and permission to have classified documents the law is very clear that the person must properly safeguard them.  Having them in a garage is hardly what any reasonable person would consider safe.  

As mentioned, there is an extensive security detail and protocol at Mar Largo plus secret service agents.  Not true at Biden's garage. 

Having worked with classified a great deal, I can tell you know nothing about this subject.  I won't attempt to correct everything you posted that is nonsense. 

 

I will address your first point:  Biden had a security clearance.   He was the VP, expected to step in at a moment's notice to fill in for the President, who also has a security clearance.  The VP always has a clearance.  It's absurd that you suggest otherwise.

1 hour ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Intent is not an element of the crime of mishandling classified government  documents, mere possession of same is enough for conviction.

Really?  Can you give us a single example of someone being charged and prosecuted for inadvertent handling of classified in the United States?

 

It's a rhetorical question; you can't. 

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

And yet here you are making up stuff about him willfully keeping the documents without proof. If he is found to have done so then he'll be playing canasta with Trump.

Did he unwillfully remove them from their secure settings, unwillfully take them to his residence and "think tank" to puruse at his leisure, unwillfully keep them in the insecure locations of his residence and "think tank," unwillfully not return the classified materials to their proper secured government offices? Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. sure has a lot of will for someone doing so many things unwillingly. 

22 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Really?  Can you give us a single example of someone being charged and prosecuted for inadvertent handling of classified in the United States?

 

It's a rhetorical question; you can't. 

Ever heard of Google...so you can't gaslight people anymore because the internet never forgets.

 

Federal officials are saying little so far about Monday’s FBI search of former President Donald Trump’s home in Mar-a-Lago...While such a search of a former U.S. president’s residence would appear to be unprecedented, investigations into the removal or unlawful retention of classified information is not.

 

https://www.voanews.com/a/fbi-justice-department-routinely-prosecute-misuse-of-classified-documents/6694887.html

 

Past cases with classified papers show legal risk for Trump, experts say 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/12/22/trump-classified-prosecutions-mar-a-lago/

 

Of course you can bet your last dollar the Washington Post is sorry they wrote the article above as it was published when they thought only their nemesis, Donald Trump, would be affected. Now that their hero, Joseph Robinette Biden Jr., is in the crosshairs for doing the same thing they don't know how to spin it to American people anymore.

Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. sicked his Justice Department, and their henchmen the FBI, on Donald J. Trump for supposedly keeping classified government documents in his residence and all the while he himself kept classified government documents in not one, but TWO, locations (albeit one where the garage door was locked). One can make a stretch and presume the documents at the Penn Biden Center "think tank" were at least kept in a drawer and away from the eyes of the night time janitors. You can't make this stuff up!

52 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Ever heard of Google...so you can't gaslight people anymore because the internet never forgets.

 

Federal officials are saying little so far about Monday’s FBI search of former President Donald Trump’s home in Mar-a-Lago...While such a search of a former U.S. president’s residence would appear to be unprecedented, investigations into the removal or unlawful retention of classified information is not.

 

https://www.voanews.com/a/fbi-justice-department-routinely-prosecute-misuse-of-classified-documents/6694887.html

 

Past cases with classified papers show legal risk for Trump, experts say 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/12/22/trump-classified-prosecutions-mar-a-lago/

 

Of course you can bet your last dollar the Washington Post is sorry they wrote the article above as it was published when they thought only their nemesis, Donald Trump, would be affected. Now that their hero, Joseph Robinette Biden Jr., is in the crosshairs for doing the same thing they don't know how to spin it to American people anymore.

Ever heard of reading your own sources?  Every example given involved the knowing and intentional misuse of classified information.  Your Washington Post source states:

 

"The criteria for prosecuting people who improperly handle classified documents are clear: Prosecutors must prove a person deliberately flouted rules for how to store the material securely, while knowing it was classified or secret national defense information."

 

All you've done is support my post that no one has ever been charged and prosecuted for inadvertent mishandling of classified.

36 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. sicked his Justice Department, and their henchmen the FBI, on Donald J. Trump for supposedly keeping classified government documents in his residence and all the while he himself kept classified government documents in not one, but TWO, locations (albeit one where the garage door was locked). One can make a stretch and presume the documents at the Penn Biden Center "think tank" were at least kept in a drawer and away from the eyes of the night time janitors. You can't make this stuff up!

No, Biden never "sicked his Justice Department" on Trump.  The Justice Department concluded, with good reason, that Trump and his lawyers were not negotiating in good faith and had no intention of returning the government documents Trump took from the White House.  That's what led to the search warrant.

5 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

The timing, for one thing. Chinese donations tripled once the Biden Center was announced. Doesn't that make you think "hmmmmmmmmm"...?

 

https://news.yahoo.com/hunter-biden-china-classified-documents-070049153.html

Are you suggesting an ex-VP would betray his country just to help a University to get more funding? Really?

 

115 universities received donations from China, some of them much more than UPenn. So, following yourself conspiracy theory line, there should be someone providing secrets to China in each of these 115 universities. From this perspective, UPenn looks quite miserable, compared to Harvard which got nearly one billion from China.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-06/harvard-leads-u-s-colleges-that-received-1-billion-from-china?leadSource=uverify wall

 

Harvard received almost $1billion in donations from China.

https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/360e14a1

Harvard and Yale accused of failing to report millions in foreign gifts

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/13/harvard-yale-accused-failing-report-millions-foreign-gifts

 

 

4 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

No but you were somehow making the inference that Biden "if he had permission" was ok in storing the records in his garage.  I was pointing out that even Hillary had her records in a more secure location, her bathroom and Trump's residence at Mar Largo was secured by secret service.  So of those which person was the most reckless with the STORAGE of classified information. 

Can you tell us all from your wondrous fount of knowledge, how many visitors had access to Mar-A-Lago and how many visitors had access to a locked cabinet in a reasonably secure building and to President Biden's locked car and garage?

 

Also would I be correct i saying that when President Biden's lawyers found both sets of documents, tha they reported the find to the national records straight away (within 24 hours) and made no attempt to hide them in any way?

 

Would I also be correct that ex-president Trump denied having any documents from the White House, that even his lawyers said the same but carefully did not put it in writing. That this went on for a period of month until some documents actually were handed over.

 

However it was not until the DoJ got a legal search warrant and had it served through the FBI  that more confidential documents were discovered. Not just 10s of documents but hundreds of documents.

 

Trump had supposedly declassified those documents but however there was and is no indication that they were ever declassified.

 

1 hour ago, candide said:

Are you suggesting an ex-VP would betray his country just to help a University to get more funding? Really?

 

115 universities received donations from China, some of them much more than UPenn. So, following yourself conspiracy theory line, there should be someone providing secrets to China in each of these 115 universities. From this perspective, UPenn looks quite miserable, compared to Harvard which got nearly one billion from China.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-06/harvard-leads-u-s-colleges-that-received-1-billion-from-china?leadSource=uverify wall

 

Harvard received almost $1billion in donations from China.

https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/360e14a1

Harvard and Yale accused of failing to report millions in foreign gifts

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/13/harvard-yale-accused-failing-report-millions-foreign-gifts

 

 

Actually, your articles dont say that. Harvard got about $94 million between 2013-19 according to your source. The one billion figure is the total of donations to ALL universities, not Harvard.

 

The difference is the timing and the ramping up. Donations triple as soon as the Biden Penn Center is announced. $30 million in just 2 years.  No financial accountability at all, just a trough of cash for the taking. 

 

Not suggesting Biden betrayed his country for funding. I am suggesting that China was spreading around the gravy, and a lot of it ended up in Biden supported pockets. China looking for "goodwill" and "understanding" among the powerful voices of the Democratic Party... And pure coincidence that this happens at the same place where classified documents just happen to 'turn up'?

 

Come on, man!

35 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Actually, your articles dont say that. Harvard got about $94 million between 2013-19 according to your source. The one billion figure is the total of donations to ALL universities, not Harvard.

 

The difference is the timing and the ramping up. Donations triple as soon as the Biden Penn Center is announced. $30 million in just 2 years.  No financial accountability at all, just a trough of cash for the taking. 

 

Not suggesting Biden betrayed his country for funding. I am suggesting that China was spreading around the gravy, and a lot of it ended up in Biden supported pockets. China looking for "goodwill" and "understanding" among the powerful voices of the Democratic Party... And pure coincidence that this happens at the same place where classified documents just happen to 'turn up'?

 

Come on, man!

Ooops! You're right about the amount. The title was misleading.

 

It remains that 115 other Universities got money from China during the same period of time, and that it is very unlikely that there were classified documents stored in each of these universities. 

 

As about the ramping up, you would need have more information before drawing any conclusion. In particular whether there was a general trend affecting other universities or not.

 

It seems you also acknowledge it as you have moved the target to "China looking for "goodwill" and "understanding" among the powerful voices of the Democratic Party..." (at the time of a GOP administration, but never mind). Same facts, if it is the case, they did it in 115 universities, so there is no particular relation to the Biden Center and even less with the fact that classified documents have been stored there (which is the subject of the thread).

 

In addition, from what can be observed about Biden's position, it surely doesn't show a "goodwill" and "understanding" re China. Neither quid nor quo.

2 minutes ago, candide said:

Ooops! You're right about the amount. The title was misleading.

 

It remains that 115 other Universities got money from China during the same period of time, and that it is very unlikely that there were classified documents stored in each of these universities. 

 

It seems you also acknowledge it as you have moved the target to "China looking for "goodwill" and "understanding" among the powerful voices of the Democratic Party..." (at the time of a GOP administration, but never mind). Same facts, if it is the case, they did it in 115 universities, so there is no particular relation to the Biden Center and even less with the fact that classified documents have been stored there (which is the subject of the thread).

 

In addition, from what can be observed about Biden's position, it surely doesn't show a "goodwill" and "understanding" re China. Neither quid nor quo.

No worries about the numbers, I get them kerfuffled too...

 

It is no secret that China has been trying to buy influence at American (and other countries') universities for some time. The profusion of "Confucian Centers" was one of the more obvious ways.  If you want to cast a wider net, it has also been going on in popular culture and professional sports- witness how Hollywood and the NBA both suck up to China for money and market share. 

 

The difference is the timing and the multiplying, as I said.  Perhaps "Project Biden" was just one of many that the CCP was undertaking at that time.  The presence of secret government documents, and lack of transparency about how they got there, who had access, etc. is the issue. 

35 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

No worries about the numbers, I get them kerfuffled too...

 

It is no secret that China has been trying to buy influence at American (and other countries') universities for some time. The profusion of "Confucian Centers" was one of the more obvious ways.  If you want to cast a wider net, it has also been going on in popular culture and professional sports- witness how Hollywood and the NBA both suck up to China for money and market share. 

 

The difference is the timing and the multiplying, as I said.  Perhaps "Project Biden" was just one of many that the CCP was undertaking at that time.  The presence of secret government documents, and lack of transparency about how they got there, who had access, etc. is the issue. 

Right, It's been a global Chinese policy, and it is also possible that the presence of Biden made UPenn an interesting target (just like the presence of other influential public figures in the other universities), in the mind of the Chinese. It makes sense.

 

However, it still doesnt support a causal link between the presence of the documents and the Chinese funding, as advocated in several posts on this forum.

8 hours ago, billd766 said:

Could you explain the difference between a private citizen and ex-president who lied and denied that he had any confidential documents, and after repeated requests even his lawyers denied the fact, (but wouldn't sign it off). Yet when the FBI finally got the warrant and searched Trump's Mar-A-Lago residence, they found literally hundreds of confidential documents.

The documents have not yet been proven to be classified, or at least we have not been informed as yet if they were in fact classified. Trump claimed that he declassified them and we are still waiting on a ruling as regards that.

 

8 hours ago, billd766 said:

quote "Ah, is the excuse going to be that some completely unknown person took classified documents from Biden's time as VP and unknown to Biden or anyone in Biden's staff placed them in his own garage."

 

Really?

 

And how would you know this?

Comprehension problem?

Do you know what "is the excuse going to be" means? 

Hint- it's a suggestion, not a fact.

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The documents have not yet been proven to be classified, or at least we have not been informed as yet if they were in fact classified. Trump claimed that he declassified them and we are still waiting on a ruling as regards that.

 

Comprehension problem?

Do you know what "is the excuse going to be" means? 

Hint- it's a suggestion, not a fact.

It's the other way round. The documents are marked classified and there is no evidence they have been declassified. So they are considered as classified until it may be proven they have been declassified.

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

The presence of secret government documents, and lack of transparency about how they got there, who had access, etc. is the issue. 

Agreed. If Biden is telling the truth and really didn't know about them, who did know and who put them in the garage?

Are we supposed to believe that someone other than Biden decided his garage was a good place to store confidential documents ( is the VP allowed to declassify confidential documents, and in any event he has not claimed to have done so? ), and put them there without getting permission from Biden?

 

IMO they will be sweating over at Archives as this looks very bad for them, if they really didn't know confidential documents were missing for 6 years.

22 minutes ago, candide said:

It's the other way round. The documents are marked classified and there is no evidence they have been declassified. So they are considered as classified until it may be proven they have been declassified.

Whether the documents are classified or not, they were not Trump's property.  They were asked to be returned and they were not.  

44 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The documents have not yet been proven to be classified, or at least we have not been informed as yet if they were in fact classified. Trump claimed that he declassified them and we are still waiting on a ruling as regards that.

 

Comprehension problem?

Do you know what "is the excuse going to be" means? 

Hint- it's a suggestion, not a fact.

A request.

 

Can you give me a hint for the next winning lottery numbers please?

24 minutes ago, Credo said:

Whether the documents are classified or not, they were not Trump's property.  They were asked to be returned and they were not.  

Right. It's only an additional bonus (or malus).

31 minutes ago, Credo said:

Whether the documents are classified or not, they were not Trump's property.  They were asked to be returned and they were not.  

The return was in the process of being negotiated was it not?

If it were not for someone inadvertently discovering Biden's papers they would still be in the garage, wouldn't they?

20 minutes ago, billd766 said:

A request.

 

Can you give me a hint for the next winning lottery numbers please?

Some of the numbers 0 to 9 will be among them, and that's a fact.