NI Protocol: 'Final talks' due between Rishi Sunak and Ursula von der Leyen

[Scott]

Rishi Sunak is meeting the European Commission president on Monday for what No 10 describes as "final talks" on a new Brexit deal for Northern Ireland.

The prime minister and Ursula von der Leyen will be trying to resolve the "range of complex challenges" around the protocol during the UK meeting.

The UK wants to change the protocol, an agreement with the EU which sees some goods checked when entering from the rest of Great Britain.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-64780244

 

 

[placeholder]

It seems unlikely that the EU will agree to eliminating the role of the European Court of Justice in adjudicating disagreements. I think Sunak has made that a sine qua non.

[brewsterbudgen]

44 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It seems unlikely that the EU will agree to eliminating the role of the European Court of Justice in adjudicating disagreements. I think Sunak has made that a sine qua non.

I read they reached a compromise about the ECJ. Ms Van Der Leyen wouldn't be coming otherwise.  It might not suit the DUP or the ERG, but he has Labour votes to get it through parliament.  I don't have much time for Sunak, or the Tories, but he's played this one quite well.  

[RayC]

44 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It seems unlikely that the EU will agree to eliminating the role of the European Court of Justice in adjudicating disagreements. I think Sunak has made that a sine qua non.

I don't think that's the case. Reports (FT, Times) say that the ECJ will remain the ultimate arbiter, but that there will be some speed bumps placed along the way to try to ensure that the ECJ's involvement is kept to a minimum. 

[Chomper Higgot]

38 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

I read they reached a compromise about the ECJ. Ms Van Der Leyen wouldn't be coming otherwise.  It might not suit the DUP or the ERG, but he has Labour votes to get it through parliament.  I don't have much time for Sunak, or the Tories, but he's played this one quite well.  

Sunak will only need to rely on Labour if he takes this to a Parliamentary vote, which would inevitably feed an ERG/Johnson narrative of Sunak selling out Brexit.

 

Keep in mind the only reason the Tories back Brexit was to try to stop the Tory Party splitting.

 

It’s not done yet, not by a long way.

 

[Thingamabob]

Sunak inherited a load of rubbish, starting with the duplicity of Teresa May's main 'negotiator' the now knighted Ollie Robbins. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Thingamabob
Words missing

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

Sunak inherited a load of rubbish, starting with the duplicity of her main 'negotiator' the now knighted Ollie Robbins. 

Civil servants make convenient scapegoats. Ya think what Robbins helped negotiate wasn't done with the approval of the PM?

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Sunak will only need to rely on Labour if he takes this to a Parliamentary vote, which would inevitably feed an ERG/Johnson narrative of Sunak selling out Brexit.

 

Keep in mind the only reason the Tories back Brexit was to try to stop the Tory Party splitting.

 

It’s not done yet, not by a long way.

 

I don't think that there would be this amount of press coverage or that VdL would be coming to London unless the deal was effectively done.

 

Sunak is taking a political risk in further alienating the flat-earthers in his party, but he's probably come to the conclusion that there's nothing that he can do or say - short of declaring war on the EU - which would satisfy them.

[Thingamabob]

55 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Civil servants make convenient scapegoats. Ya think what Robbins helped negotiate wasn't done with the approval of the PM?

I think it was done with the covert approval of the PM.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

I think it was done with the covert approval of the PM.

So you wrote this why?

"Sunak inherited a load of rubbish, starting with the duplicity of Teresa May's main 'negotiator' the now knighted Ollie Robbins."

As I noted, a convenient scapegoat.

[RayC]

Seems like it's all done and dusted. Sunnak to address parliament @18:30 (GMT). Can't imagine that he would convene a meeting to announce, "Sorry lads and lasses, nothing to report".

[Chomper Higgot]

10 minutes ago, RayC said:

Seems like it's all done and dusted. Sunnak to address parliament @18:30 (GMT). Can't imagine that he would convene a meeting to announce, "Sorry lads and lasses, nothing to report".

Or at least it seems Sunak thinks it’s done and dusted.

 

I genuinely wish him good luck.

 

But, as I said first off, let’s see what the deal is and let’s see the response of the extreme rightwing of the Tory Party.

[placeholder]

20 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Or at least it seems Sunak thinks it’s done and dusted.

 

I genuinely wish him good luck.

 

But, as I said first off, let’s see what the deal is and let’s see the response of the extreme rightwing of the Tory Party.

Assuming that all the non-conservative members of the commons except the DUP votes for the agreement, then even if only 40 Tory MPs support the bill, I think that should be enough. And such a small number of Tory votes in favor doesn't seem likely.

[RayC]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Assuming that all the non-conservative members of the commons except the DUP votes for the agreement, then even if only 40 Tory MPs support the bill, I think that should be enough. And such a small number of Tory votes in favor doesn't seem likely.

Labour have promised to support any bill. The flat earth brigade only number +/-60 MPs, so the deal is effectively done. 

 

The cherry on the cake for me would be for Sunak to announce a 3-line whip for any vote. For the likes of Johnson, Rees-Moog, Francois, Cash, etc. to defy him and vote against the bill. For Sunak to then withdraw the whip and for them to be de-selected by their constituencies, and for parliament to be rid of them at the next election. Unfortunately, this is more hope than expectation.

[placeholder]

32 minutes ago, RayC said:

Labour have promised to support any bill. The flat earth brigade only number +/-60 MPs, so the deal is effectively done. 

 

The cherry on the cake for me would be for Sunak to announce a 3-line whip for any vote. For the likes of Johnson, Rees-Moog, Francois, Cash, etc. to defy him and vote against the bill. For Sunak to then withdraw the whip and for them to be de-selected by their constituencies, and for parliament to be rid of them at the next election. Unfortunately, this is more hope than expectation.

From the NYTimes

Ms. von der Leyen reiterated that the European Court of Justice “is the sole and ultimate arbiter of E.U. law.” She added that the court “will have the final say on E.U. law and single market issues.”

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/02/27/world/northern-ireland-brexit-trade-deal

 

I guess Britons ever ever ever shall be slaves.

[RayC]

50 minutes ago, placeholder said:

From the NYTimes

Ms. von der Leyen reiterated that the European Court of Justice “is the sole and ultimate arbiter of E.U. law.” She added that the court “will have the final say on E.U. law and single market issues.”

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/02/27/world/northern-ireland-brexit-trade-deal

 

I guess Britons ever ever ever shall be slaves.

That the ECJ is the ultimate arbiter of EU law was never in question. It was (is?) about its' role in NI. Whether this apparently  pragmatic compromise holds remains to be seen but it appears to be based on a partnership, rather than a master/ slave relationship as you suggest.

 

Sunak deserves credit for repairing the fractious relationship which Johnson and Truss had created and developed. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by RayC
Grammar

[candide]

A few more information about it

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/27/uk/brexit-northern-ireland-negotiations-gbr-intl/index.html

[JonnyF]

8 hours ago, placeholder said:

From the NYTimes

Ms. von der Leyen reiterated that the European Court of Justice “is the sole and ultimate arbiter of E.U. law.” She added that the court “will have the final say on E.U. law and single market issues.”

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/02/27/world/northern-ireland-brexit-trade-deal

 

I guess Britons ever ever ever shall be slaves.

Of course the ECJ is the sole arbiter of EU law. Kind of stating the obvious isn't it?

 

I'm not sure how you deduced from that statement that Britons ever shall be slaves, I guess you are unaware that Britain left the EU and is therefore no longer subject to the ECJ.

 

Of course, that's assuming you are aware that NI is not in Britain...????

[JonnyF]

7 hours ago, RayC said:

Sunak deserves credit for repairing the fractious relationship which Johnson and Truss had created and developed. 

Indeed. Sunak appears to have made another important step in disentangling NI from the EU's tentacles.

 

He's not there yet, but one step at a time. Give it another couple of years and then we go again. As the EU continues to weaken, it should be easier to remove NI completely from the tired old grip of the corrupt EU.  

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, RayC said:

That the ECJ is the ultimate arbiter of EU law was never in question. It was (is?) about its' role in NI. Whether this apparently  pragmatic compromise holds remains to be seen but it appears to be based on a partnership, rather than a master/ slave relationship as you suggest.

 

Sunak deserves credit for repairing the fractious relationship which Johnson and Truss had created and developed. 

He’s done a great job wrapping the NI Protocol in some pretty paper and selling it to the Tories and DUP without actually changing it.

 

Border in the Irish Sea, no hard border between NI and Eire, ECJ retains role as final arbiter of EU law as it impacts the Protocol and Trade between the EU and NI.

 

The more interesting development is the clear break from deliberately antagonizing the EU to a more pragmatic and cooperative approach.

 

 

[RayC]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Indeed. Sunak appears to have made another important step in disentangling NI from the EU's tentacles.

 

He's not there yet, but one step at a time. Give it another couple of years and then we go again. As the EU continues to weaken, it should be easier to remove NI completely from the tired old grip of the corrupt EU.  

Sunak deserves praise but so too do the EU. It would have been very easy - and perfectly understandable given the provacation from Johnson and the flat Earthers - for them to have simply refused to reopen negotiations. Fortunately - unlike the previous UK administrations - they acted like grown-up, pragmatic, solution orientated adults and an agreement was forthcoming.

 

There may be tweaks here and there to this agreement but you're going to be sadly disappointed if you think that there will be any more significant changes.

 

I doubt that Sunak is as duplicitous as Johnson and that he has signed an agreement knowing full well that he has no intention of keeping it, so hopefully we can look forward to better relations with the EU in the future.

 

This is a major success for Sunak however, he still has the problem of trying to justify Brexit, something that looks increasingly difficult each passing day. I hope that he can find the 'sunny uplands' but currently that looks about as likely as finding the Holy Grail.

Edited February 28, 2023 by RayC
Grammar

[transam]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

He’s done a great job wrapping the NI Protocol in some pretty paper and selling it to the Tories and DUP without actually changing it.

 

Border in the Irish Sea, no hard border between NI and Eire, ECJ retains role as final arbiter of EU law as it impacts the Protocol and Trade between the EU and NI.

 

The more interesting development is the clear break from deliberately antagonizing the EU to a more pragmatic and cooperative approach.

 

 

"Deliberately antagonising the EU", are you one of those Sovereign Citizen types, you always knock your country, government, Royalty etc..?

 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

Sunak deserves praise but so too do the EU. It would have been very easy - and perfectly understandable given the provacation from Johnson and the flat Earthers - for them to have simply refused to reopen negotiations. Fortunately - unlike the previous UK administrations - they acted like grown-up, pragmatic, solution orientated adults and an agreement was forthcoming.

 

There may be tweaks here and there to this agreement but you're going to be sadly disappointed if you think that there will be any more significant changes.

 

I doubt that Sunak is as duplicitous as Johnson and that he has not signed an agreement knowing full well that he has no intention of keeping it, so hopefully we can look forward to better relations with the EU in the future.

 

This is a major success for Sunak however, he still has the problem of trying to justify Brexit, something that looks increasingly difficult each passing day. I hope that he can find the 'sunny uplands' but currently that looks about as likely as finding the Holy Grail.

Oh no, Brexit is back, give it a rest, please..............

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Of course the ECJ is the sole arbiter of EU law. Kind of stating the obvious isn't it?

 

I'm not sure how you deduced from that statement that Britons ever shall be slaves, I guess you are unaware that Britain left the EU and is therefore no longer subject to the ECJ.

 

Of course, that's assuming you are aware that NI is not in Britain...????

OK. I guess it's only citizens of NI who ever ever ever shall be slaves.

[transam]

Just now, placeholder said:

OK. I guess it's only citizens of NI who ever ever ever shall be slaves.

Eh.....?  

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Indeed. Sunak appears to have made another important step in disentangling NI from the EU's tentacles.

 

He's not there yet, but one step at a time. Give it another couple of years and then we go again. As the EU continues to weaken, it should be easier to remove NI completely from the tired old grip of the corrupt EU.  

Could you share with us the evidence that the EU continues to weaken? It's certainly has grown in popularity with EU citizens over the past several years. Even those right wing nationalist parties that used to inveigh against it found out that stance didn't go over well with voters.  Whereas Brexit is not exactly well regarded by most UK citizens any more.

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

Eh.....?  

They are subject to the cruel tyranny of the European Court of Justice.

[RayC]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

"Deliberately antagonising the EU", are you one of those Sovereign Citizen types, you always knock your country, government, Royalty etc..?

 

How else would you describe Johnson's behaviour in ignoring the terms of an International Agreement which he willingly entered into, and then threatening legislation to unilaterally overturn the provisions of that Agreement?

[RayC]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

Oh no, Brexit is back, give it a rest, please..............

Err ... Brexit - specifically its' effect on the island of Ireland - is the topic under discussion in case you hadn't noticed.

[JonnyF]

10 minutes ago, transam said:

"Deliberately antagonising the EU", are you one of those Sovereign Citizen types, you always knock your country, government, Royalty etc..?

 

An avid Guardian reader. So yes, always contempt for the Country, the Tories, the Working Classes, the Royal Family etc.

 

It comes with the territory.