Electric motoring is, in theory, a subject about which I should know something. My first university degree was in electrical and electronic engineering, with a subsequent master’s in control systems.

 

Combine this, perhaps surprising, academic pathway with a lifelong passion for the motorcar, and you can see why I was drawn into an early adoption of electric vehicles. I bought my first electric hybrid 18 years ago and my first pure electric car nine years ago and (notwithstanding our poor electric charging infrastructure) have enjoyed my time with both very much.

 

 But increasingly, I feel a little duped. When you start to drill into the facts, electric motoring doesn’t seem to be quite the environmental panacea it is claimed to be.

 

READ MORE

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

 

5 minutes ago, onthedarkside said:

But increasingly, I feel a little duped. When you start to drill into the facts, electric motoring doesn’t seem to be quite the environmental panacea it is claimed to be.

I have felt the same for a long time. When you work out how the electricity is generated in many places EV's are essentially coal powered cars (not a good thing for global warming). Mainly IMO they serve as virtue signalling tools to show off to your peers. And then there are these types of stories -

 

"Cardiff Council has confirmed it has been using diesel generators to charge some of its electric bin lorries. The local authority has been using Dennis Eagle eCollect electric waste collection vehicles since 2021 to further transition its fleet away from diesel and to aid its mission to achieve net zero carbon emissions by 2030.

But an anonymous source made the Local Democracy Reporting Service aware of images showing one of the council's electric waste collection vehicles being charged by a diesel generator."

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cardiff-council-been-using-diesel-27002764

I read that article yesterday. It makes a lot of sense.

 

But are there any climate catastrophe activists out there who want that we use our brains and don't just accept: electric good, combustion engine bad.

 

Rowan Atkinson writes: 

We need also to acknowledge what a great asset we have in the cars that currently exist (there are nearly 1.5bn of them worldwide). In terms of manufacture, these cars have paid their environmental dues and, although it is sensible to reduce our reliance on them, it would seem right to look carefully at ways of retaining them while lowering their polluting effect. Fairly obviously, we could use them less. As an environmentalist once said to me, if you really need a car, buy an old one and use it as little as possible

One of the problems we have to face is that many of these activists have taken to telling people what they can and can't do with their lives. 

 

Recently footage was aired of one of those "just stop oil" protests blocking a street in London. A Police man asked them to allow a car, carrying someone en route to an important hospital appointment, through the blockade.

 

The protest spokesman refused, saying that he didn't believe that it was important enough.

 

The Police accepted that.

 

Incredible arrogance. Self appointed decision makers seriously affecting people's lives.

 

Pathetic policing.

When these lithium batteries are done , how will they be disposed of when everybody is forced to use an EV.  

 

Was a time that adding lead to petrol was seen as a good thing. People are not looking down the road far enough with EVs.

1 hour ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

When you work out how the electricity is generated in many places EV's are essentially coal powered cars

Yes, need more nuclear power plants. 

My take away from the article is it's not the car that is the issue, it's how it's energized.

 

'huge amount of energy to make the EV' 

'charging from a fossil fueled grid'

 

Is that the car's fault ... NO

Fossil fuel industry has controlled the grid development for ... well, forever.   That's got to change.   Solar, wind, hydro, thermal energy is all available but not utilized.

 

That's the problem, not the EVs.

Energizing a country without fossil fuel is possible, and being done, by only a few.  Why isn't every country getting at least half their energy from non fossil fuel sources.

 

% of energy from renewable by country:

22% of the countries get >50% 

8% of the countries get >75 %

Only 4 countries get 100%

 

That's out of 214 countries & territories, and it's embarrassing which ones are not using more renewables.  That's simply unacceptable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewable_electricity_production

Nonsense!

"In advance of the Cop26 climate conference in Glasgow in 2021, Volvo released figures claiming that greenhouse gas emissions during production of an electric car are 70% higher than when manufacturing a petrol one.  " 

The operative word here is "during production "  

How about life span?

Then he goes on to say :

" The biggest problem we need to address in society’s relationship with the car is the “fast fashion” sales culture that has been the commercial template of the car industry for decades. Currently, on average we keep our new cars for only three years before selling"

"New cars" not new electric cars.

So how does this relates to ?

"I love electric vehicles – and was an early adopter. But increasingly I feel duped "?

The statement does not even makes sense. Those who only keep  a car "Three Years" sell the car to someone else who does not buy a new car and as such does not contribute to  emissions created during the production .

 

But what do you expect from an article written by Mr Been? ????

I will Admit that's where I stopped reading being too busy laughing. So If I missed anything later on on the article, Please feel free to corrected. 

2 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

I have felt the same for a long time. When you work out how the electricity is generated in many places EV's are essentially coal powered cars (not a good thing for global warming). Mainly IMO they serve as virtue signalling tools to show off to your peers. And then there are these types of stories -

 

"Cardiff Council has confirmed it has been using diesel generators to charge some of its electric bin lorries. The local authority has been using Dennis Eagle eCollect electric waste collection vehicles since 2021 to further transition its fleet away from diesel and to aid its mission to achieve net zero carbon emissions by 2030.

But an anonymous source made the Local Democracy Reporting Service aware of images showing one of the council's electric waste collection vehicles being charged by a diesel generator."

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cardiff-council-been-using-diesel-27002764

Your comment about EV's being essentially coal powered would make some sense if, in fact, coal provided the majority of power. Is that the case in the UK? Is it the case in the EU? Is it the case in the developed world? Even in China the percentage of power provided by coal is falling. In fact, China is leading the world by far in the installation of new renewable sources.

And as for what's coming down the pipeline, overwhelmingly it's renewables In fact over the next five years, renewables will account for over 90% of all new power generation

https://www.iea.org/news/renewable-power-s-growth-is-being-turbocharged-as-countries-seek-to-strengthen-energy-security

 

 

23 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Your comment about EV's being essentially coal powered would make some sense if, in fact, coal provided the majority of power. Is that the case in the UK? Is it the case in the EU? Is it the case in the developed world? Even in China the percentage of power provided by coal is falling. In fact, China is leading the world by far in the installation of new renewable sources.

And as for what's coming down the pipeline, overwhelmingly it's renewables In fact over the next five years, renewables will account for over 90% of all new power generation

https://www.iea.org/news/renewable-power-s-growth-is-being-turbocharged-as-countries-seek-to-strengthen-energy-security

 

 

Very good  unswer , we were visiting in Greece last  year when it was announced in the news that " Today the country was run by entirely rentable sources" Of course that does not happen every day , and it was probably a windy and very sunny day with low demand, But is becoming more and more a thing in many countries and will become even more so in the future. 

I am afraid the person you were replying too has bought into the propaganda the fissile fuel inductile is spewing in addition to their CO2. 

Another thing he failed to mentioned is that even the electricity produced by Coal, is not produced in the middle of the city  where smog is a problem. 

So I asked Chat CPT AI. below is a quote , and following the whole unswer if interested. 

"A report by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) found that, on average, EVs produce less than half the emissions of comparable gasoline-powered vehicles over their lifetime in the United States. "

 

"

including the co2 produced by an EV what is the difference in co2 production batwing Ev and ICE vehicles

 

 

ChatGPT

 

Comparing the CO2 emissions between electric vehicles (EVs) and internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles involves considering multiple factors throughout the vehicle's life cycle. These factors include CO2 emissions from electricity generation for EVs and tailpipe emissions for ICE vehicles.

1. Manufacturing: Both EVs and ICE vehicles produce CO2 during the manufacturing process. EVs require large batteries, which have a carbon footprint associated with their production. However, the specific emissions depend on the battery type, manufacturing processes, and the energy sources used.

2. Fuel or Electricity Production: EVs produce zero tailpipe emissions since they run on electricity. However, the emissions associated with EVs depend on the sources of electricity used for charging. If the electricity comes from fossil fuel power plants, it can still have CO2 emissions. However, as renewable energy sources like wind and solar power become more prevalent, the emissions from charging EVs decrease.

3. Energy Efficiency: EVs are generally more energy-efficient than ICE vehicles. Electric motors convert a higher percentage of energy into forward motion, while ICE vehicles waste a significant amount of energy as heat. This higher energy efficiency translates to lower overall CO2 emissions for EVs.

Taking all these factors into account, numerous studies have been conducted to compare the CO2 emissions of EVs and ICE vehicles over their entire life cycles. The results vary depending on the region, electricity sources, and specific vehicle models.

In general, current studies suggest that EVs have lower CO2 emissions compared to ICE vehicles. A report by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) found that, on average, EVs produce less than half the emissions of comparable gasoline-powered vehicles over their lifetime in the United States. However, the exact emissions reduction depends on the electricity mix in each region.

It is important to note that as the electricity grid becomes cleaner and more renewable energy is integrated, the CO2 emissions associated with EVs will continue to decrease. Additionally, advancements in battery technology and manufacturing processes are expected to reduce the carbon footprint of EVs even further in the future.

"

This is a major piece of concern trolling from Rowan Atkinson. It's clear from the way he cherrypicks his information. For instance, he cites Volvo's estimate that the manufacturing an EV creates 70% more CO2, but leaves out Volvo's estimate that over its lifetime an EV will still produce less greenhouse gas than wll an EV. And of course, he ignores more recent research:

 

YSE Study Finds Electric Vehicles Provide Lower Carbon Emissions Through Additional Channels

https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/yse-study-finds-electric-vehicles-provide-lower-carbon-emissions-through-additional

 

HIs point about EV batteries lasting only about 10 years is false. Batteries are lasting a lot longer than originally predicted with experts now giving them 10-20 years. What's more, these batteries are  increasingly being recycled which consumes a lot less energy.  It also turns out that the recycled lithium actually performs better than does newly mined lithium.

 

As for synthetic fuels, they actually aren't carbon neutral, although they could be a huge improvement over petroleum derived fuels. Could be.

 

And most of the rest of his column is about holding off on buying new ICE vehicles as a way to reduce greenhouse gases. Critiques of consumerism are all well and good but how realistic a program is that?

"Volvo released figures claiming that greenhouse gas emissions during production of an electric car are 70% higher than when manufacturing a petrol one. " 

 

Volvos are made in these countries, and % or energy from coal in these countries:

... Sweden 0.7% (plan to halt all coal 2022)

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.COAL.ZS?most_recent_value_desc=true

 

... Belgium 6.1%

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.COAL.ZS?most_recent_value_desc=true

 

... China 56.8%

https://chinapower.csis.org/energy-footprint/#:~:text=From 1990 to 2019%2C China's,percent of China's energy use.

 

... SC, USA 15% / 20% (SC 2021) (USA 20% (2022)

https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=SC

 

https://apnews.com/article/renewable-energy-coal-nuclear-climate-change-dd4a0b168fe057f430e37398615155a0#:~:text=Coal-fired generation was 20,compared to 37% in 2021.

 

Rowan talks of excess consumerism, yet he owns 5 house.  And his (finally sold) cost to simply repair his McLaren F1 supercar made headlines.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/02/07/171399233/mr-beans-supercar-crash-racks-up-1-4-million-repair-bill#:~:text=Bean%2C is in the record,a U.K. record%2C newspapers say.

5 hours ago, Denim said:

When these lithium batteries are done , how will they be disposed of when everybody is forced to use an EV.  

 

Was a time that adding lead to petrol was seen as a good thing. People are not looking down the road far enough with EVs.

I was talking to a scrap metal guy the other day in UK.

 

He told me he does not touch electric cars. There is no way to recycle electric cars or parts in UK. Any electric vehicle that becomes undrivable just sits and rots or gets sent to Poland.

In the end it's all up to you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F6_3Fyz0jA

 

6 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

The protest spokesman refused, saying that he didn't believe that it was important enough.

Like many insane left-wing activists (fascists), they've got it into their heads that their crusade is about saving lives, therefore any tactic is justified and nothing is more important.

37 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

I was talking to a scrap metal guy the other day in UK.

 

He told me he does not touch electric cars. There is no way to recycle electric cars or parts in UK. Any electric vehicle that becomes undrivable just sits and rots or gets sent to Poland.

His opinion obviously, as the motors & battery packs can and are being used again.  You can always find a use for an electric motor, and the battery banks are being used at charging station, and added to solar systems.  Anywhere addition storage is wanted/needed.

 

The rest of the car, same as ICE, in demand by someone for lower cost repairs to other 'running' vehicles.  Junk yard was always my first for parts, to keep my POSs running, as long as possible, on the cheap.

11 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

His opinion obviously, as the motors & battery packs can and are being used again.  You can always find a use for an electric motor, and the battery banks are being used at charging station, and added to solar systems.  Anywhere addition storage is wanted/needed.

 

The rest of the car, same as ICE, in demand by someone for lower cost repairs to other 'running' vehicles.  Junk yard was always my first for parts, to keep my POSs running, as long as possible, on the cheap.

Not his opinion. It's his facts from having run his business for over 30 years.

 

Maybe my post was unclear. I agree parts can be used in other ways. Scrapping cannot be done in UK. Licenses or some red tape stops it. Cars sent to Poland, either done up or scrapped. I guess the parts then get sent to UK.

5 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Scrapping cannot be done in UK.

Not a very EV friendly country.  Though I do still find it hard to believe, there is not an after market for motors, battery packs, and the rest of the car's parts.

 

Is there one for ICEs, if so, how can EVs be any different.  No wonder the UK is in deep sh!t, and if true, seems to be a bit over regulated.

 

Another reason why I left my original nanny state / USA.

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

Very good  unswer , we were visiting in Greece last  year when it was announced in the news that " Today the country was run by entirely rentable sources" Of course that does not happen every day , and it was probably a windy and very sunny day with low demand, But is becoming more and more a thing in many countries and will become even more so in the future. 

I am afraid the person you were replying too has bought into the propaganda the fissile fuel inductile is spewing in addition to their CO2. 

Another thing he failed to mentioned is that even the electricity produced by Coal, is not produced in the middle of the city  where smog is a problem. 

So I asked Chat CPT AI. below is a quote , and following the whole unswer if interested. 

"A report by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) found that, on average, EVs produce less than half the emissions of comparable gasoline-powered vehicles over their lifetime in the United States. "

 

"

including the co2 produced by an EV what is the difference in co2 production batwing Ev and ICE vehicles

 

 

ChatGPT

 

Comparing the CO2 emissions between electric vehicles (EVs) and internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles involves considering multiple factors throughout the vehicle's life cycle. These factors include CO2 emissions from electricity generation for EVs and tailpipe emissions for ICE vehicles.

1. Manufacturing: Both EVs and ICE vehicles produce CO2 during the manufacturing process. EVs require large batteries, which have a carbon footprint associated with their production. However, the specific emissions depend on the battery type, manufacturing processes, and the energy sources used.

2. Fuel or Electricity Production: EVs produce zero tailpipe emissions since they run on electricity. However, the emissions associated with EVs depend on the sources of electricity used for charging. If the electricity comes from fossil fuel power plants, it can still have CO2 emissions. However, as renewable energy sources like wind and solar power become more prevalent, the emissions from charging EVs decrease.

3. Energy Efficiency: EVs are generally more energy-efficient than ICE vehicles. Electric motors convert a higher percentage of energy into forward motion, while ICE vehicles waste a significant amount of energy as heat. This higher energy efficiency translates to lower overall CO2 emissions for EVs.

Taking all these factors into account, numerous studies have been conducted to compare the CO2 emissions of EVs and ICE vehicles over their entire life cycles. The results vary depending on the region, electricity sources, and specific vehicle models.

In general, current studies suggest that EVs have lower CO2 emissions compared to ICE vehicles. A report by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) found that, on average, EVs produce less than half the emissions of comparable gasoline-powered vehicles over their lifetime in the United States. However, the exact emissions reduction depends on the electricity mix in each region.

It is important to note that as the electricity grid becomes cleaner and more renewable energy is integrated, the CO2 emissions associated with EVs will continue to decrease. Additionally, advancements in battery technology and manufacturing processes are expected to reduce the carbon footprint of EVs even further in the future.

"

Sorry for all the typos, I guess I should had read it before I pulled the trigger.

I am surprised any of you understood what I said ????

Anyway it is "Answer" "fossil"   use your imagination with the rest. For some reason I can't edit this post. 

PS: Ohh Ok. I checked and I could edit this post so I guess after a length of time you can no longer use the edit option evidence of  your bad spelling is there for eternity LOL 

32 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Not a very EV friendly country.  Though I do still find it hard to believe, there is not an after market for motors, battery packs, and the rest of the car's parts.

 

Is there one for ICEs, if so, how can EVs be any different.  No wonder the UK is in deep sh!t, and if true, seems to be a bit over regulated.

 

Another reason why I left my original nanny state / USA.

You mean you won't take the word of an anecdotal scrap metal businessman who anecdotally has been in the business for 30 years?

Odd that this alleged scrap metal businessmanwouldn't know about this company

https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/

 

Or that EV batteries that aren't being reused in the UK are shipped to European factories for recycling. Including at least one that is located in Poland:

https://www.just-auto.com/news/posco-completes-ev-battery-recycling-plant-in-poland/

and elsewhere

https://www.electrive.com/2023/04/27/fortum-opens-large-scale-battery-recycling-plant-in-finland/

https://hydrovolt.com/

 

As usual, when it comes to manufacturing, the EU is behind the curve. As for the claim that the rest of the vehicle can't be recycled, what can i say but that sounds like utter...rubbish. 

 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You mean you won't take the word of an anecdotal scrap metal businessman who anecdotally has been in the business for 30 years?

Odd that this alleged scrap metal businessmanwouldn't know about this company

https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/

 

Or that EV batteries that aren't being reused in the UK are shipped to European factories for recycling. Including at least one that is located in Poland:

https://www.just-auto.com/news/posco-completes-ev-battery-recycling-plant-in-poland/

and elsewhere

https://www.electrive.com/2023/04/27/fortum-opens-large-scale-battery-recycling-plant-in-finland/

https://hydrovolt.com/

 

As usual, when it comes to manufacturing, the EU is behind the curve. As for the claim that the rest of the vehicle can't be recycled, what can i say but that sounds like utter...rubbish. 

I was going to go a bit further, and state he 'sucks' as a business person, and apparently a lot of missed income opportunities.

 

But not actually knowing the regs, or personally knowing him or poster, that might come off as offensive ... oops again.

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

I was going to go a bit further, and state he 'sucks' as a business person, and apparently a lot of missed income opportunities ... oops.

 

But not actually knowing the regs, or personally knowing him or poster, that might come off as offensive ... oops again.

Is that that scrap metal businessman knowable?

I haven' been able to find any evidence that the rest of an electric vehicle can't be scrapped. I did see evidence that EV batteries that aren't being reused in the are being shipped to plants in the EU. I find it hard to believe that what remains isn't at least eligible for the scrap yard, if not for parts.

One of the problems bedeviling the EV battery recycling business is that not only are batteries in cars lasting longer than predicted, but as you pointed out, once they fall below 80% capacity, they can still be used in all sorts of storage applications.

If Rowan gets in touch I’ll lend him a bicycle.

 

I’m in the late stages of buying an ‘e-cargo bike’.

I say ‘late stages’ because I always spend months researching buying vehicles, bikes included.

 

I took a test ride on an ‘e-bike’ last Tuesday, I’m convinced they could be the transport solution for very many people.

 

In the meanwhile, I’ll make do with shanks’ pony and public transport, though perhaps not a solution for such well known people as Atkinson.

 

11 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I was going to go a bit further, and state he 'sucks' as a business person, and apparently a lot of missed income opportunities.

 

But not actually knowing the regs, or personally knowing him or poster, that might come off as offensive ... oops again.

Somehow I don’t think you’ll really offend anyone with that observation.

45 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Is that that scrap metal businessman knowable?

I haven' been able to find any evidence that the rest of an electric vehicle can't be scrapped. I did see evidence that EV batteries that aren't being reused in the are being shipped to plants in the EU. I find it hard to believe that what remains isn't at least eligible for the scrap yard, if not for parts.

One of the problems bedeviling the EV battery recycling business is that not only are batteries in cars lasting longer than predicted, but as you pointed out, once they fall below 80% capacity, they can still be used in all sorts of storage applications.

I said, the vehicles can't be scrapped in UK. Not that the parts scrapped can't be reused.

 

The cars are sent to Poland. In Poland they're either scrapped or restored. Scrapped parts are then, sometimes, sent back to the UK for sale. 

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

I was going to go a bit further, and state he 'sucks' as a business person, and apparently a lot of missed income opportunities.

 

But not actually knowing the regs, or personally knowing him or poster, that might come off as offensive ... oops again.

Why does he suck as a business person?

 

I said he doesn't touch electric cars. He buys them for a price then sells them to the guys in Poland for a higher price. Sounds like good business to me.

33 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Why does he suck as a business person?

 

I said he doesn't touch electric cars. He buys them for a price then sells them to the guys in Poland for a higher price. Sounds like good business to me.

So not just a scrap dealer, as implied, but wears 2 hats:

... scrap dealer

... used car dealer ????

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

So not just a scrap dealer, as implied, but wears 2 hats:

... scrap dealer

... used car dealer ????

No. He's a scrap metal dealer by trade. He scraps mist things metal including vehicles.

 

As far as scrapping EVs is concerned he doesn't touch them. He doesn't go out looking for them to make a deal but, as a successful business man, if he is offered one he has found a way to " scrap" them without doing it himself. As any good businessman would. 

8 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

No. He's a scrap metal dealer by trade. He scraps mist things metal including vehicles.

 

As far as scrapping EVs is concerned he doesn't touch them. He doesn't go out looking for them to make a deal but, as a successful business man, if he is offered one he has found a way to " scrap" them without doing it himself. As any good businessman would. 

EVs and ICEs are very different. I could easier chop shop the parts of the ICE, sell whatever, and crush the rest.  Not sure I would know where to start with the EV,   

 

Take a wee bit more knowledge, probably some regulation to meet, before even touching the battery pack.

28 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

EVs and ICEs are very different. I could easier chop shop the parts of the ICE, sell whatever, and crush the rest.  Not sure I would know where to start with the EV,   

 

Take a wee bit more knowledge, probably some regulation to meet, before even touching the battery pack.

Exactly his point.