Mexico v Thailand

[bradiston]

19 hours ago, bradiston said:

Some interesting data on expats in Thailand, amongst other stuff, here:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Thailand#:~:text=Thailand is also home to,%2C North America%2C and elsewhere.

 

Not very up to date, but interesting nonetheless. From The above link if anyone can be bothered to read it.

 

"The largest foreign community are the Burmese, followed by the Cambodians and Laotians.^[30]

As of March 2018, Thai government data showed that over 770,900 Cambodian migrants, meaning five percent of the total population of Cambodia, currently live in Thailand. Some NGOs estimate that the actual number may be up to one million.^[31]

Laotians are particularly numerous considering the small size of Laos' population, about seven million, due to the lack of a language barrier. The Chinese expatriate employee population in Thailand, mostly Bangkok, has doubled from 2011-2016, making it the largest foreign community in Thailand not originating in a neighbouring country. Chinese hold 13.3 percent of all work permits issued in Thailand, an increase of almost one-fifth since 2015.^[32] Japanese expats are on the decline, and now rank sixth, behind Chinese and British. One in every four foreigners working in Thailand formerly were Japanese, and the figure has now dropped slightly to 22.8 percent of the foreign workforce as of late-2016.^[33]

Foreign residents in Thailand, according to the 2010 Census. It was found that there were 2,581,141 of foreign origins, composing around 3.87 percent of Thailand's population.^[34] Migrants from Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar, the most prevalent, accounted for 1.8 million foreigners.^[30]

Research by Kasikorn Bank estimated that in 2016, there were 68,300 foreigners over 50 years old—the minimum age for a retirement visa—holding long-stay visas living in Thailand, a 9% increase over the preceding two years. In 2018, Thailand issued almost 80,000 retirement visas, an increase of 30% from 2014, with Britons accounting for the majority of the new visas.^[35]

In 2010 there were 27,357 Westerners living in the northeastern region, 90 pecent living with Thai spouses, according to research by the College of Population Studies at Chulalongkorn University in 2017.^[36]
"

[Yellowtail]

27 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

True. But we do contribute to the economy. We do bring in alot of stable income.  Even the rural folks benefit. Alot of the nicer houses in the poorer farming areas were built with money from expats. Alot of trucks, cars and income is from expats. Countless business employing many. To say it is insignificant, is a blatant misunderstanding of Thai economics. Thousands of hotels, restaurants, countless airlines and many tour companies, also benefit. By comparison, an average ex-pat spends how much per month? I would say alot of us spend 50,000 to upwards of 100,000 baht a month. I know I do. No value in that? I know some live on less.

Easy Jethro, I was responding to your statement: "My guess would be that they are counting every ex-pat coming into the country, from a trip overseas, business visas, etc. Everyone counts! Beef up the numbers!", implying entries of expats are used to distort the tourism numbers.

 

Now you're pretending I've claimed expats bring no value. I said no such thing, nor do I believe it.

 

27 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

However, since the average GDP of the nation is around $570, that means about 18,000 baht a month?

You must be a Democrat: 

 

27 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

 

Alot of guys got sick of the toxic immigration and government and left. A friend of mine uses a foreign lawyer in Bangkok, who is one of the top attorneys around. He said his office cannot find enough hours in the day to meet with expats who are leaving, with their Thai spouse or family, and dealing with wills and assets for their remaining Thai families, properties, etc. 

I've been here full time since 2000 and visited for a few years before that, and I have had no significant issues with the government. What has the government done you see as being so terrible? 

 

27 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Back to the original post. I really wonder how many expats live here? Not the transitory, working here for a year or two types. Those of us who have been here a long time. 100,000? Maybe. 

Depends how you define expat. 

 

[spidermike007]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Easy Jethro, I was responding to your statement: "My guess would be that they are counting every ex-pat coming into the country, from a trip overseas, business visas, etc. Everyone counts! Beef up the numbers!", implying entries of expats are used to distort the tourism numbers.

 

Now you're pretending I've claimed expats bring no value. I said no such thing, nor do I believe it.

 

You must be a Democrat: 

 

I've been here full time since 2000 and visited for a few years before that, and I have had no significant issues with the government. What has the government done you see as being so terrible? 

 

Depends how you define expat. 

 

1. I was not being in any way critical of your post. I agree, and was simply making some points to further elaborate what we bring to the table.

2. I never use politics to bash posters on this forum. It is a Clinton type low blow, and I do not consider it elegant, nor civilized. Saying you must be a democrat these days, is tantamount to her calling republicans deplorables. I am a democrat. Centrist and very moderate. I consider both the democratic and republican parties in the US to be completely sold out, and totally broken. I have alot of republican friends and family, and if we discuss politics it is done with respect and regard.

3. I would not even know where to begin to answer your question about how terrible the government is here. I have many significant issues with them, and so do most of my Thai friends and family. I am hoping that will improve soon, with the toxic army out of the way of the people.

 

 

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

1. I was not being in any way critical of your post. I agree, and was simply making some points to further elaborate what we bring to the table.

But nothing about what we take from the table. We may be a net benefit, but we are not without cost. 

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

2. I never use politics to bash posters on this forum. It is a Clinton type low blow, and I do not consider it elegant, nor civilized. Saying you must be a democrat these days, is tantamount to her calling republicans deplorables. I am a democrat. Centrist and very moderate. I consider both the democratic and republican parties in the US to be completely sold out, and totally broken. I have alot of republican friends and family, and if we discuss politics it is done with respect and regard.

It was a joke, which you go on and on about, but you don't bother to acknowledge that your claim was off by a factor of 12. 

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

3. I would not even know where to begin to answer your question about how terrible the government is here. I have many significant issues with them, and so do most of my Thai friends and family. I am hoping that will improve soon, with the toxic army out of the way of the people.

As is typical, too many to come up with even a single example.

[josephbloggs]

37 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

As is typical, too many to come up with even a single example.

Yeah, but toxic dinosaurs, backwards, terrible, etc etc.

[save the frogs]

On 6/5/2023 at 11:13 AM, Jingthing said:

If you're looking for countries that get you into decent health care systems from the get go, look into Colombia and Ecuador. 

ecuador used to be safe, but i think they have cartel violence now too. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, save the frogs said:

ecuador used to be safe, but i think they have cartel violence now too. 

Well not sure about cartels but yes crime has gone up in the most popular expat haven Cuenca. But they are working on it. 

[BangkokReady]

On 6/4/2023 at 2:29 PM, bradiston said:

Yeah, that's an obvious drawback. Are gringo lower in status than farang?

Is there any developing country that has a lower status attached to Westerners than Thailand?

[josephbloggs]

3 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Is there any developing country that has a lower status attached to Westerners than Thailand?

Is there any Asian country which has more Westerners with massive chips on their shoulders than Thailand?

[BangkokReady]

2 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Is there any Asian country which has more Westerners with massive chips on their shoulders than Thailand?

Don't assume that everyone has a chip on their shoulder just because you do.

[josephbloggs]

31 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Don't assume that everyone has a chip on their shoulder just because you do.

But I don't. I don't go around whinging that everything is against me, Thais hate me, immigration hates me, we are lowly, we are mistreated, bleat bleat bleat.

I just have a nice life, enjoy it here and don't have any problems. Which makes me wonder where people's issues come from.

The ones with chips on their shoulders are the ones with unjustified victim complexes.

[BangkokReady]

2 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

But I don't. I don't go around whinging that everything is against me, Thais hate me, immigration hates me, we are lowly, we are mistreated, bleat bleat bleat.

So anyone who has experienced those things is lying?

 

2 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

I just have a nice life, enjoy it here and don't have any problems. Which makes me wonder where people's issues come from.

You haven't personally experienced something, so you assume that no one else could possibly experience those things?  Really?

 

You must know that different people have vastly different lives?

 

2 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

The ones with chips on their shoulders are the ones with unjustified victim complexes.

You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to other foreigners.

[swissie]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Well not sure about cartels but yes crime has gone up in the most popular expat haven Cuenca. But they are working on it. 

Whenever the Mexican Govenment proclaims "to work on it", it is bound to get worse. Past, present and future Mexican rulers must accomodate US Investment-interests in Mexico. Above anything else.

A case in point: All those US manufacturing plants consume a lot of water. With the result that groud-water resources are even depleted faster than the Oglala Aquifier in the US. And that is to say quite something.

A former Mexican President summarised it nicely: "The problem of Mexico is, that is so far away from God and so close to the US". Still valid, today more than ever. A holiday in Mexico can still be appealing. Permanent residency only for US passport holders, as they can hop back across the border, in case the country of Mexico starts to "disintegrate".

 

[JackGats]

On 6/5/2023 at 3:09 AM, spidermike007 said:

... Frankly, there is nothing about the Thai language I like. Nothing. Spanish sounds like music or poetry to me in comparison. And using the same alphabet is immensely easier, in addition to not having to deal with the ridiculous tones.
 
And the last part is the most important one. I find that throughout Latin America, when I am trying hard to be understood, people reciprocate that effort, and try hard to understand me. And I think they may be more creative, or more linguistically skilled than most Thais (able to dance in circles intellectually, to interpret and figure out an answer to an unfamiliar problem). You seem to get huge credit for trying to speak Spanish, even if it is very imperfect. I do not get any of that here. Nunca. Nada. Zero. ...

I couldn't help but laugh at this post because it is exactly the way I feel after learning Thai for 3 years. I have been making good progress but there's nothing I ever really liked about Thai. Learning it  has been a drudge and will remain a drudge. The phonetics is grating to the ear. The writing system seems to have been invented to make reading slow and laborious.

 

To make things worse, the Thais do not seem to want me to speak their language. In the beginning I thought that was because my Thai was poor. But now they still mostly refuse to speak Thai with me even in cases where my Thai is infinitely better than their English. This is very disappointing. I end up asking myself "what's wrong with these people". No such problem in South America. The people there will love to speak their own native Spanish or Portuguese. It would never occur to them to try to be cute in mickey mouse English instead.

[josephbloggs]

33 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

So anyone who has experienced those things is lying?

No, I didn't sat that, some people have had issues I am sure.

 

Quote

You haven't personally experienced something, so you assume that no one else could possibly experience those things?  Really?

 

You must know that different people have vastly different lives?

Yes, we have vastly different lives.

Again, I did not say that because I hadn't experienced it meant no one could have experienced it. I was saying I have a very positive and friendly outward persona. I have had not one single issue with immigration or Thai offialdom in 28 years of living here. I have friends who have lived here for similar amounts of time and they have had no problems either. The world is not against us for some reason, we must be lucky. I don't know anyone - at all - who calls immigration people "toxic" or "dinosaurs" or "backward". 

If you haven't got it by now my inference is that you get out what you put in. The only people I see on here complaining of toxicity at immigration are the ones who post in very negative terms about Thais and Thailand and whinge about everything here. Go around with that kind of attitude and I'm not surprised if people are not super helpful back.

So yeah, I am sure these people go in with a negative attitude, a scowl, and maybe they are not getting smiles back, who'd have imagined?

 

Quote

You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to other foreigners.

Yeah, a chip on my should about people with chips on their shoulders, ok.

Again, nothing to do with foreigners, I have many foreign friends here, there are many great foreigners on this forum who are positive, friendly, helpful, and don't have these problems. They only seem to happen to the negative posters who look down on everything here. They don't seem to realise that maybe, just maybe, they are the cause. Again, who'd have imagined?
 

Edited June 11, 2023 by josephbloggs

[swissie]

4 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

No, I didn't sat that, some people have had issues I am sure.

 

Yes, we have vastly different lives.

Again, I did not say that because I hadn't experienced it meant no one could have experienced it. I was saying I have a very positive and friendly outward persona. I have had not one single issue with immigration or Thai offialdom in 28 years of living here. I have friends who have lived here for similar amounts of time and they have had no problems either. The world is not against us for some reason, we must be lucky. I don't know anyone - at all - who calls immigration people "toxic" or "dinosaurs" or "backward". 

If you haven't got it by now my inference is that you get out what you put in. The only people I see on here complaining of toxicity at immigration are the ones who post in very negative terms about Thais and Thailand and whinge about everything here. Go around with that kind of attitude and I'm not surprised if people are not super helpful back.

So yeah, I am sure these people go in with a negative attitude, a scowl, and maybe they are not getting smiles back, who'd have imagined?
 

No Farang has ever been refused a 1 year "non immigrant visa" if the proper paperwork plus "financial requiremets" have been fulfilled. The only thing that could prevent future "extentions" is having accumulated a criminal record in Thailand.

[BangkokReady]

20 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

No, I didn't sat that, some people have had issues I am sure.

 

Yes, we have vastly different lives.

Again, I did not say that because I hadn't experienced it meant no one could have experienced it. I was saying I have a very positive and friendly outward persona. I have had not one single issue with immigration or Thai offialdom in 28 years of living here. I have friends who have lived here for similar amounts of time and they have had no problems either. The world is not against us for some reason, we must be lucky. I don't know anyone - at all - who calls immigration people "toxic" or "dinosaurs" or "backward". 

If you haven't got it by now my inference is that you get out what you put in. The only people I see on here complaining of toxicity at immigration are the ones who post in very negative terms about Thais and Thailand and whinge about everything here. Go around with that kind of attitude and I'm not surprised if people are not super helpful back.

So yeah, I am sure these people go in with a negative attitude, a scowl, and maybe they are not getting smiles back, who'd have imagined?

 

Yeah, a chip on my should about people with chips on their shoulders, ok.

Again, nothing to do with foreigners, I have many foreign friends here, there are many great foreigners on this forum who are positive, friendly, helpful, and don't have these problems. They only seem to happen to the negative posters who look down on everything here. They don't seem to realise that maybe, just maybe, they are the cause. Again, who'd have imagined?
 

I too haven't had many of the issues that people complain about, but I generally live a quiet life and try to be polite to everyone I encounter.  But I have noticed a lot of things around covid and some Thais behaving as if all foreigners have covid.  I also get a sense that many Thais are not particularly fond of foreigners, although many are fine, and most probably don't care either way.  Certainly Thais are not as friendly with foreigners as they are with other Thais, even if all other things remain equal.

 

There might be perfectly sensible reasons for this, but it is what it is.

 

No matter your experience, you must be able to see that foreign people are not considered to be particularly high in terms of social status in Thailand, and are often discriminated against or exploited by some Thais.  I feel like I haven't experienced this to the same extent in other countries that I have visited, which was the reason for my question.

[Jingthing]

41 minutes ago, swissie said:

Whenever the Mexican Govenment proclaims "to work on it", it is bound to get worse. Past, present and future Mexican rulers must accomodate US Investment-interests in Mexico. Above anything else.

A case in point: All those US manufacturing plants consume a lot of water. With the result that groud-water resources are even depleted faster than the Oglala Aquifier in the US. And that is to say quite something.

A former Mexican President summarised it nicely: "The problem of Mexico is, that is so far away from God and so close to the US". Still valid, today more than ever. A holiday in Mexico can still be appealing. Permanent residency only for US passport holders, as they can hop back across the border, in case the country of Mexico starts to "disintegrate".

 

Cuenca is in Ecuador.

They have had very good local governments there.

[save the frogs]

59 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Cuenca is in Ecuador.

my point was that the mexican cartels have infiltrated ecuador. 

but not sure how bad it is.

and if mexico "disintegrates", you can blame all the rich kids in both US and Europe ... they're the ones consuming the cocaine and fueling the cartels. 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by save the frogs

[Jingthing]

38 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

my point was that the mexican cartels have infiltrated ecuador. 

but not sure how bad it is.

and if mexico "disintegrates", you can blame all the rich kids in both US and Europe ... they're the ones consuming the cocaine and fueling the cartels. 

 

This is giving a false impression. 

Cartel violence is a major problem in Ecuador.

However Cuenca the most popular city for expats is NOT a center of cartel violence.

[save the frogs]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

This is giving a false impression. 

Cartel violence is a major problem in Ecuador.

However Cuenca the most popular city for expats is NOT a center of cartel violence.

they have the potential to start wars in different parts of the country over time.

cancun now has military guys on the beach. before it wasn't a threat to tourists. 

[JimTripper]

I almost tried Cuenca, but never got there. The flights were about the same price from the USA as going to Bangkok.

 

I figured it was very similar to Mexico so I gave it a pass. From the videos I saw online it looked like a small town with nothing much to do long term. Also, the expats from the USA seemed irritating, they were just kind of older couples mostly, not singles. I think it’s mostly quiet type older retired couples who live there.

[Jingthing]

34 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

I almost tried Cuenca, but never got there. The flights were about the same price from the USA as going to Bangkok.

 

I figured it was very similar to Mexico so I gave it a pass. From the videos I saw online it looked like a small town with nothing much to do long term. Also, the expats from the USA seemed irritating, they were just kind of older couples mostly, not singles. I think it’s mostly quiet type older retired couples who live there.

I haven't been but my understanding is that it's more like Europe than Mexico  though perhaps it has similarities to Mexico's colonial cities at high elevations. The addition of the imported from Europe Tranvia is quite exciting. 

 

 

[save the frogs]

Anyway, we only read about the cartels.

This guy is predicting that Mexico will reach economic parity with G7 nations in coming decades.

 

 

[spidermike007]

9 hours ago, JackGats said:

I couldn't help but laugh at this post because it is exactly the way I feel after learning Thai for 3 years. I have been making good progress but there's nothing I ever really liked about Thai. Learning it  has been a drudge and will remain a drudge. The phonetics is grating to the ear. The writing system seems to have been invented to make reading slow and laborious.

 

To make things worse, the Thais do not seem to want me to speak their language. In the beginning I thought that was because my Thai was poor. But now they still mostly refuse to speak Thai with me even in cases where my Thai is infinitely better than their English. This is very disappointing. I end up asking myself "what's wrong with these people". No such problem in South America. The people there will love to speak their own native Spanish or Portuguese. It would never occur to them to try to be cute in mickey mouse English instead.

I totally agree. Thai is not a pleasant sounding language. Not as bad as Mandarin. But, not exactly a sing song language. And far harder to learn than it needs to be. I have had the same experience. It almost feels like sometimes they are pretending to not understand. 

 

That would rarely happen in Latin America, where the general population is far more open to outsiders and far more linguistically creative. 

[Jingthing]

20 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Anyway, we only read about the cartels.

This guy is predicting that Mexico will reach economic parity with G7 nations in coming decades.

 

 

Sure and by then budget expats will be fully priced out.

[save the frogs]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Sure and by then budget expats will be fully priced out.

yes, thats a possibility 

maybe malaysia too.

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, save the frogs said:

yes, thats a possibility 

maybe malaysia too.

 

It's not all bad.

Mexicans will be able to retire in the US ha ha.

[JimTripper]

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

I have had the same experience. It almost feels like sometimes they are pretending to not understand. 

Speaking the language seriously means integration and equality. When you talk baby talk it’s funny and a joke or just to sell something or explain where you are going next “on holiday?” Of course, giggle giggle…

 

It’s similar to making people continually report to immigration, not own land, move around as cheap cheap backpackers, etc. Keeping foreigners uprooted basically and always moving from place to place and drinking in bars.

 

I think that’s what’s behind a lot of the stupid pigeon talk.

Edited June 12, 2023 by JimTripper

[spidermike007]

5 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

Speaking the language seriously means integration and equality. When you talk baby talk it’s funny and a joke or just to sell something or explain where you are going next “on holiday?” Of course, giggle giggle…

 

It’s similar to making people continually report to immigration, not own land, move around as cheap cheap backpackers, etc. Keeping foreigners uprooted basically and always moving from place to place and drinking in bars.

 

I think that’s what’s behind a lot of the stupid pigeon talk.

Is there such a thing as integration and equality here? In Mexico, after 10 years of living there, you are an honorary Mexican. Here? I always feel like an outsider. Fortunately, I don't feel a need to belong. 

 

In all seriousness, I ask the question.