Thai Property, Blue Book vs Chanote.

[Formaleins]

Anyone know what the law is regarding the person named on the full Chanote as opposed to the person named on the Blue House reg. Tabien Bahn? If the land is held by a person named on the chanote, does the house or buildings on that land legally belong to the Chanote holder or the first named on the Tabien Bahn? - (Obviously not talking about a caravan or mobile home) Does the permanent structure on the land belong to the chanote holder or the persons in the Tabien Bahn? Thanks.

 

Even if a second or third party built and paid for the actual dwelling, once constructed and issued with the Tabien Bahn, does this then become part of the chanote holders property? Cheers.

[CartagenaWarlock]

Technically a person can be named in multiple Chanote but only in one Blue book. The person named in the Blue book may not be the owner of the house. Chanote shows ownership and Blue book shows the residence. 

[FriendlyFarang]

The owner is the person on the chanote.

The blue house book doesn't show ownership.

[scorecard]

13 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

Technically a person can be named in multiple Chanote but only in one Blue book. The person named in the Blue book may not be the owner of the house. Chanote shows ownership and Blue book shows the residence. 

Blue Tabien Baan (TB) book (or Yellow Tabien Baan book) is a listing of who is registered as living at that address. It is not intended to show/prove ownership.

 

But in reality any/all of those listed on the TB might be sleeping at another address.

E.g. A Thai person still listed on the TB book of their parents (say in one part of Bkk) but same person sleeps at an apartment in another part of Bkk. (And Bkk in the e.g. above could be replaced by anywhere in Thailand).

 

The first page of the TB book shows the full address details. The person shown on the second page is often referred to as the 'House Master' who is expected to keep the TB book up to date by taking the book and some personal docs to the local Amphur office to enter new people now listed as residing at that address and remove names of folks who are now / are going to be shown on a different TB book.

 

The house master supposedly approves who can be added to the TB book.

 

The house master is not necessarily the owner of the property. It's possible and does happen, that the owner of the property is legitimately on a different TB book and has requested another person (relative / friend) to be the House Master for a property he/she owns (proved by chanut) to be the House Master.

 

As already mentioned Thai nationals must be recorded in a TB book somewhere. That's the source of the data for printing new/replacement plastic Thai ID cards.

 

There is no check anywhere/anytime to see that the TV book is up to date in any way.

 

Yes it's possible that one person owns the land but another person owns the house/buildings on that land.

 

I'm aware of previous discussions on this where lawyers / Land Office officials have said the proof of ownersip of the house/buildings is by fully detailed/fully signed copy of the contract to build the house./buildings and the name on the contract to build being recognised as the owner of the house/buildings.

 

What springs to mind is whether the law requires any proof that the owner of the land (chanut) has given permission for another person to sign a contract in the name of another person to have a house/building constrcted on the land owners property. I don't know the law on this situation, others possibly have more detailed kowledge on this item.

[BenStark]

14 hours ago, Formaleins said:

If the land is held by a person named on the chanote, does the house or buildings on that land legally belong to the Chanote holder or the first named on the Tabien Bahn?

The house belongs to the person whose name is on the building license. Blue book has nothing to do with ownership of anything.

[Peterw42]

Its pretty straight forward, chanote is who owns the property, blue book is who lives at the property.

[BenStark]

13 minutes ago, scorecard said:

What springs to mind is whether the law requires any proof that the owner of the land (chanut) has given permission for another person to sign a contract in the name of another person to have a house/building constrcted on the land owners property. I don't know the law on this situation, others possibly have more detailed kowledge on this item.

Landowner will have to sign for a building license to be issues to a different person as the landowner.

[KhunLA]

Chanote is owner of the land.  Who may restrict, or authorize others to use.  May even give up their own right to use.  Think usufruct to 'live at & modify'.

 

In which case, owner of the chanote can't make changes without the usufruct owner's permission.

 

Blue book simply a record of the house/personal property,   And as stated, master of such, controlling who can be listed on as a resident.

 

Obviously listed on, doesn't require actual living at.  All Thais, for identification purposes, have to be listed in a blue book somewhere.

 

Better to state why you are asking, if there is an issue or conflict you are trying to sort.  

[khunPer]

22 hours ago, Formaleins said:

Anyone know what the law is regarding the person named on the full Chanote as opposed to the person named on the Blue House reg. Tabien Bahn? If the land is held by a person named on the chanote, does the house or buildings on that land legally belong to the Chanote holder or the first named on the Tabien Bahn?

The Blue Book is only registration of Thai people living in a house/on an address; it got nothing to do with ownership. Foreigners are registered in a Yellow House Book.

 

The first name in a House Book is the first person registered to live at the address.

 

The name on the back of a land title deed is the name of the owner of the land; it's freehold if it's a Nor Sor 4 deed, also called Chanote.

 

Buildings on a land can be owned by the land owner; or separated from the land, and owned by someone else, who might have no ownership to any part of the land. A foreigner can for example own a house, but not the land under the house (with a few exceptions).

[DrJoy]

8 minutes ago, khunPer said:

The Blue Book is only registration of Thai people living in a house

Nope.

 

Foreigners with Thai Permanent Residence Book, also get registered in the Blue Tabien Baan.

[KhunLA]

22 minutes ago, DrJoy said:

Nope.

 

Foreigners with Thai Permanent Residence Book, also get registered in the Blue Tabien Baan.

Don't even need to have TPRB, as a house is personal property, and anyone can own.   Getting the Amphur to issue you a blue book may be a challenge.  I only know of 1 person (Brit/marriage visa), who asked and got it done @ Udon Thani.

 

I had no interests in doing so, or personally know anyone else doing.  Not saying they haven't, just don't personally know anyone.  

[khunPer]

19 hours ago, DrJoy said:

Nope.

 

Foreigners with Thai Permanent Residence Book, also get registered in the Blue Tabien Baan.

Considered "Thai people"...????

[khunPer]

18 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Don't even need to have TPRB, as a house is personal property, and anyone can own.   Getting the Amphur to issue you a blue book may be a challenge.  I only know of 1 person (Brit/marriage visa), who asked and got it done @ Udon Thani.

 

I had no interests in doing so, or personally know anyone else doing.  Not saying they haven't, just don't personally know anyone.  

Every house will have a Blue Book, but foreigners – and so everybody shall be happy: apart from people with "permanent residency" – cannot be registered in it.

 

I own my house and I have a blue book, and I'm even "House Master", so only I can accept persons to be registered in "my" Blue Book. However, I cannot myself be registered in "my" Blue Book, as I'm an alien without "permanent residency", so my name is in a Yellow House Book for aliens; i.e., I have two house books.

[khunPer]

On 8/10/2023 at 4:27 AM, KhunLA said:

Chanote is owner of the land.  Who may restrict, or authorize others to use.  May even give up their own right to use.  Think usufruct to 'live at & modify'.

 

In which case, owner of the chanote can't make changes without the usufruct owner's permission.

 

Blue book simply a record of the house/personal property,   And as stated, master of such, controlling who can be listed on as a resident.

 

Obviously listed on, doesn't require actual living at.  All Thais, for identification purposes, have to be listed in a blue book somewhere.

 

Better to state why you are asking, if there is an issue or conflict you are trying to sort.  

Chanote, is a nickname for Nor See 4 Jor title deed, the only real freehold title deed. You can find explanation for all the land title deeds HERE.

 

"CHANOTE: from the land title documents issued by the Thailand Land Department only the Nor. Sor. 4 Jor or Chanote is a true land ownership title deed."

 

"Nor Sor Si (4) Jor (Chanote)
The N.S.4.J or Chanote is a certificate of true ownership for land and the only true ownership land title deed. Land held under Chanotes are accurately surveyed and GPS plotted in relation to a national survey grid and marked by unique numbered marker posts set in the ground. Chanote titles are found in the more developed areas of Thailand. Legal acts (sale) do not have to be published. There are no general restrictions on the use and the land can be sub-divided."

 

Usufruct: Not really...

"Section 1424. The usufructuary is bound to keep the substance of the property unaltered, and is responsible for ordinary maintenance and pretty repairs."

 

You can read the Usufruct law HERE.

 

Blue House Book and Yellow House Book for Aliens are address registration, nothing more.

[khunPer]

On 8/10/2023 at 3:57 AM, scorecard said:

What springs to mind is whether the law requires any proof that the owner of the land (chanut) has given permission for another person to sign a contract in the name of another person to have a house/building constrcted on the land owners property. I don't know the law on this situation, others possibly have more detailed kowledge on this item.

Yes, you always need permission of one or other kind to build something on others land. A superficies agreement is such instrument, see more HERE.

 

It can be another person than the land owner that is "House Master" and can accept names to be registered in the House Book(s).

[PJ71]

20 hours ago, DrJoy said:

Nope.

 

Foreigners with Thai Permanent Residence Book, also get registered in the Blue Tabien Baan.

How many of them do you know?

[KhunLA]

34 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Usufruct: Not really...

"Section 1424. The usufructuary is bound to keep the substance of the property unaltered, and is responsible for ordinary maintenance and pretty repairs."

 

You can read the Usufruct law HERE.

 

Blue House Book and Yellow House Book for Aliens are address registration, nothing more.

There are 2 types of Usufrunct, 'use' & 'use & modify'

[KhunLA]

54 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Every house will have a Blue Book, but foreigners – and so everybody shall be happy: apart from people with "permanent residency" – cannot be registered in it.

 

I own my house and I have a blue book, and I'm even "House Master", so only I can accept persons to be registered in "my" Blue Book. However, I cannot myself be registered in "my" Blue Book, as I'm an alien without "permanent residency", so my name is in a Yellow House Book for aliens; i.e., I have two house books.

And yet, I know a Brit who is top dog in 'his' Blue Book.

 

YMMV

[scorecard]

37 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Yes, you always need permission of one or other kind to build something on others land. A superficies agreement is such instrument, see more HERE.

 

It can be another person than the land owner that is "House Master" and can accept names to be registered in the House Book(s).

True on both points.

 

And as already said the 'house master' doesn't need to be the owner or part owner of the property as showing on the original copy of the chanut held at the Land Titles office.

 

And to clear up a point mentioned on another webboard; the blue/yellow Tabien Baan book showing the name of the 'house master' is NOT a replacement or alternative in any way for a Power of Attorney in relation to the actual owner as stated on the Chanut.

 

Further the name (person) showing as the 'house master' on the TB doesn't automatically have authority to commit the actual owner to costs related to the property (E.g. house repairs).

 

Further, creditors (E.g. electric bills, credit card bills, etc.), cannot approach the 'house master' and demand payment for the electric bills of the property which are in another name, 

Edited August 11, 2023 by scorecard

[khunPer]

16 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

And yet, I know a Brit who is top dog in 'his' Blue Book.

 

YMMV

He might have "permanent residency", vthe he is registered in a Blue House Book...????

[khunPer]

20 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

There are 2 types of Usufrunct, 'use' & 'use & modify'

Do you have a source link..?

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Do you have a source link..?

Just my experience with 8 usufructs.  Wife couldn't even modify present house, without my approval, as I had to sign off the building permit.

 

Couldn't sell the previous 7 lots without my approval @ Udon Thani.  

 

Anything I state/post, is from "my experiences", or I'll note that it is not.

 

As I said, YMMV

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, khunPer said:

He might have "permanent residency", vthe he is registered in a Blue House Book...????

As I stated, he's here on a marriage visa, and yes, I saw his name in the Blue Book, 1st named page.

 

Again ... YMMV

[Sigmund]

I have bought a house on leasehold, I paid for the house but my name is not in the blue book

 

I however have the land lease and another document that is oversized. and always an issue to stick under the photocopy (you surely see what I mean9

 

For a certificate of immigration the land lease paper goes fine, accompanied with the blue book despite that it does not have any name. To open bank accounts in Bangkok these 2 documents also go fine.

 

 

[khunPer]

22 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

As I stated, he's here on a marriage visa, and yes, I saw his name in the Blue Book, 1st named page.

 

Again ... YMMV

You can read Thai letters..?
To my knowledge all entries in house books are made in Thai.

[khunPer]

28 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Just my experience with 8 usufructs.  Wife couldn't even modify present house, without my approval, as I had to sign off the building permit.

 

Couldn't sell the previous 7 lots without my approval @ Udon Thani.  

 

Anything I state/post, is from "my experiences", or I'll note that it is not.

 

As I said, YMMV

If the building permit is in your name, you are the owner of the house, even that you don't own the land under it. It got nothing to do with the usufruct.

 

Concerning selling land with registered usufruct, please read the linked law; land can be sold, but a registered usufruct will still be valid.

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, khunPer said:

If the building permit is in your name, you are the owner of the house, even that you don't own the land under it. It got nothing to do with the usufruct.

 

Concerning selling land with registered usufruct, please read the linked law; land can be sold, but a registered usufruct will still be valid.

I don't need to read any links posted.  Experience is my guide.

 

Wife goes to sell land, 6 lot, 4 separate sales, 1 w/house, I have usufruct on all 6 lots, she can't sell till I sign off/cancel my usufruct. (Udon Thani)

 

Wife submits blueprint for addition to her house, (laundry/storage rooms) not on original blueprint.  I have usufruct on land (chanote), it sits on, to use & modify, I have to sign off/approve the addition. (PKK),  I'm not in blue book, but have Yellow Book.  I don't want to be in any blue book, as simply a complication for her, after I crap out.  One less thing to do.

 

Again .... YMMV

Have a nice day ... Bye Bye

Edited August 11, 2023 by KhunLA

[scorecard]

50 minutes ago, khunPer said:

If the building permit is in your name, you are the owner of the house, even that you don't own the land under it. It got nothing to do with the usufruct.

 

Concerning selling land with registered usufruct, please read the linked law; land can be sold, but a registered usufruct will still be valid.

But from my understanding the person who is the focus of the usufruct must give their permission for the land / the buildings / or both to be sold.

 

And as you mention if the land / the buildings / or both are sold the usufruct still stands.

 

That's how it's worded in my personal case:

 

- Chanut for the land and buildings shows my Thai adult son as the owner.

- Thai son placed a usufruct on the chanut saying:

• I can live on the property until I die.
• Land and buildings cannot be sold without my written permission. 
• If sold, usufruct remains intact.
• Usufruct can only be cancelled by me.
• Usufruct automatically cancels on my death.

Edited August 11, 2023 by scorecard

[khunPer]

21 hours ago, scorecard said:

But from my understanding the person who is the focus of the usufruct must give their permission for the land / the buildings / or both to be sold.

 

And as you mention if the land / the buildings / or both are sold the usufruct still stands.

 

That's how it's worded in my personal case:

 

- Chanut for the land and buildings shows my Thai adult son as the owner.

- Thai son placed a usufruct on the chanut saying:

• I can live on the property until I die.
• Land and buildings cannot be sold without my written permission. 
• If sold, usufruct remains intact.
• Usufruct can only be cancelled by me.
• Usufruct automatically cancels on my death.

Your conditions are not standard conditions by the law, but special agreements between you and your son.

 

The two clauses – "Land and buildings cannot be sold without my written permission", and "Usufruct can only be cancelled by me" – are not included in the normal contract text; they however might be wise additions, if legal.

 

The standard conditions in a usufruct agreement are these:

 

1. The Covenantor agrees to grant the Covenantee the usufruct of the Property, with possession, use and enjoyment of the said Property, as well as the right of management of the Property.
2. Such usufruct rights shall remain enforce for a period of.............years.
3. In case of death of the Covenantee prior to expiration of the rights of usufruct granted herein, this contract shall be deemed extinguished, and shall not be transferable by way of inheritance.
4. In using the usufruct, the Covenantee shall take as much care of the Property as a person of ordinary prudence would take of his own property.
5. The Covenantee shall not transfer the usufruct to any other persons or unrelated outsiders, except with the Covenantor’s prior written consent.
6. The Covenantee shall not use the Property for any unlawful purposes.
7. The Covenantee shall keep the substance of the Property unaltered; and shall undertake ordinary maintenance and petty repairs.
8. The Covenantee shall bear all expenses for the management of the Property; pay taxes and duties; and be responsible for all interest payments on debts charged upon it.
9. The Covenantee shall insure the Property against loss for the benefit of the Covenantor throughout the period of this contract; the insurance premium of which shall be borne by the Covenantee.
10. In case of breach of contract by one party, the other party has the right to terminate the contract.

Source link HERE.

 

A law firm's note about usufruct says:

Right of Usufruct is governed by the chapter 'Property" in the Civil and Commercial Code (not the chapter 'Contracts') and as a property right it offers specific rights and obligations. An option to buy or restriction of sale of the property is under Thai law not part of the right of usufruct. Such options are in Thailand outside the scope or area of usufruct and can only be made as a separate agreement between the owner and usufructuary. Even if it would be written in the usufruct contract it would under current Thai law still remain a separate contract right and not part of the right of usufruct (it does not follow the property as a real right when for example ownership is transferred). And when foreigners are involved enforceability of such (contract) options would in court probably be considered void or voidable.

Source link and usufruct-law HERE.

[Formaleins]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:09 AM, BenStark said:

The house belongs to the person whose name is on the building license. Blue book has nothing to do with ownership of anything.

This intrigues me, you are the only person that mentions a building license. Could this be the same sort of thing as "Planning Permission" from the Amphur? Where the engineering drawings are passed off and red stamped by the local government office to allow construction? Thank you for your input, very interesting as this then takes it up a notch. My wife and son are listed on the blue Tabien Bahn, my son is listed on the Chanote, and I actually signed the documents along with the guy (Thai) who drew up the drawings that were passed by the Amphur. It looks a bit of a mess eh!