Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

8 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

what about money to support my Family in Thailand  which is TAX Paid in EU     how the hell can they demand tax on money to my wife ?????

I don't see that anyone has demanded anything of the kind, do you!

[TimeMachine]

On 9/18/2023 at 12:57 PM, connda said:

Eventually someone is going to write, "Does that mean farang's pension income too."

Short answer would probably be "No," at least for those countries with bilateral tax agreements with Thailand.  If you're paying income tax in your home countries, then Thailand has no claim to tax the income twice.

Not supposed to be taxed twice. But money used amongst citizens probably gets taxed many times over. An item going through its lifetime with an average value of $1 would be tax gouged more than half in most cases under all sorts of guises. Sun tax is even here now. I prefer to call it government mafia protection money.  Pay us and nobody gets hurt.

[Crazy Noobie]

Just like Thailand. they make all of these major statements about all money being taxed, but yet have to sit down and put all of the details in writing. they seem to love to do everything backwards. I have a big question that I don't think has been asked yet? If we have to pay a tax, what is the percentage? I don't think I have read anything on the percent yet, so I figure it would be the same as their rates are now. Anybody have any ideas on this?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

21 hours ago, moogradod said:

I guess every retiree with pension would like to know. But I have neard rumours that thousands of pensioneers did never file a tax return even if over the threshold, partly to the practice of the RD not to care about. So it seems that all these people would have to file because the practice has changed starting 2024 besides some specialities which nobody knows yet. Do the retirees then have to file for every pension amount received as well in the past ? I suppose that would be as well a nightmare for the RD. And then how to proceed in this case ? There seems two be two fractions that believe that asking the RD itself is the best way and some that this should be avoided because of unforeseen circumstances - if not to call that even a stupid behaviour arousing more trouble than necessary and avoidable.

 

Now that you will always be well prepared concerning the latest info on the matter - but what is your proposed way of action ? I could imagine the best would be to hire a really good accountant / lawyer who has long experience with the RD. But where to find such a person in Pattaya ? I think this last question is crucial.

Agreed - preparing for what could happen is always a wise move and is never time wasted, even if that time was wasted..  Learning how to plan and prepare is an exercise that can come in handy one day.

 

Right now I am doing two things myself.  One is waiting for the Thai RD to provide clarifications and details, and maybe even following Malaysia's lead by postponing implementation for a few years, to give plenty of time to cover all the issues and release detailed advice.  The other one is to bring in more this year than planned (not a tax resident in 2023), and then bring in the absolute minimum in 2024.

Meanwhile I will watch as things develop - and I will not be asking the Thai RD for advice ????

Concurrently, I am continuing to check out the 'Retirement Visas' on offer from neighbouring countries.  And let me tell you, with the recent clampdown announced on TM30s being in Passports, it is ridiculous how Thailand treats its 'invited guests' compared to most of the others. Seriously, Thailand has a very similar 'command and control' system over its foreign guests, that China and Vietnam do.  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

21 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Have you successfully filed a PND 90/91 in English?  I don't believe it's possible, even if that is claimed on the RD website. I have filed online for many years and never saw the option to file in English. In the past they had an option to translated pages, which sometimes sort of worked, but not for filing.

No - never lodged a return in Thailand - and hope never to have to do that. 

I am going off the online lodgement document and the online lodgement guide.

080966PIT94.pdf (rd.go.th)

080966Ins94.pdf (rd.go.th)

If I have misread those documents and they do not work in practice, please let me know.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Apples and oranges.

The online lawyer just forgot that Thailand is not the West, Japan or Singapore.

Law enforcement is way behind and corruption way higher.

Having living in several countries of different cultures, the only sound advice is: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".

What are the huge majority of Thais doing? They don't declare nor pay tax as they should do.

Sure it's better to be aware of the law/rules, that doesn't mean we need to change anything until real actions consistently and sustainably happen.

He has lived in Thailand for over 20 years and is a Thai Citizen - he is the owner of the legal company and he knows exactly what he is talking about.

 

Planning and preparing is not changing anyhting - it just means looking into the matter and thinking about the 'what ifs'.

 

Apples and Oranges are both fruit that grow on trees. Up to you which one/s if any,  you eat - I eat both. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

The only people who are preaching are the doom - Mongers.

Assessable income, as per the new rules starting on 01 Jan 2024 appear to be

* Earnings from occupation

* Earnings from Business,

* Wealth located abroad 

Remitted to Thailand.

Not a single mention of DTA's that cover other sources of income.

The doom-mongers have managed to extrapolate the above into immigration, fines at the airport and all manner of crap.

Assess the facts - Formulate a plan - Enact the plan.

There is no planning to be done ( as yet ) on the crap that has came out of the initial RD order or the piles of horse manure spouted by various doom - mongers

Jesus H Christ, some people need to get a grip of their Y - Fronts.

Yes you do.  Calm down and have another beer - and stop reading posts on this matter.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

16 hours ago, stat said:

Some MINUTES later he posts: "Hate to be the bearer of bad news. But a DTA will not cover as you are not paying tax in another Country. "

 

Simply lost for words with this guy

Me too - just ignore him mate. Seems to me a lot of (deleted) have joined in lately, read only a few pages, and start 'arguing' about it with those of us who have been here since page 1, and have read each others posts and checked out the links we all provided.

[bugger bognor]

I predicted a 100 pages of <deleted>e and I was right I'm now predicting 200 pages by December it's comical to me I will say it again 99.9 % Of expats won't be paying any tax none! You are deluded if you think any different it will take years or even a decade to produce legislation to implement a complex minefield of regulations globally tens of thousands of documents would have to be drawn up, so far 2 paragraphs by an advisory board has got you in a frenzy nothing is going to change just like your weekly pledge to stop drinking or bargirl hunting so get over it and back on the piss

[topt]

2 hours ago, Crazy Noobie said:

Just like Thailand. they make all of these major statements about all money being taxed, but yet have to sit down and put all of the details in writing. they seem to love to do everything backwards. I have a big question that I don't think has been asked yet? If we have to pay a tax, what is the percentage? I don't think I have read anything on the percent yet, so I figure it would be the same as their rates are now. Anybody have any ideas on this?

Been covered multiple times within the thread.

In fact on my screen on the right at the top of the page shows like an analysis of the thread with a couple of posted images - both of which are someone's interpretation of the amounts you would pay at different levels.......

Bearing in mind individuals may have different allowances and DTA's may differ.

[Klonko]

Consistent with UOB:

[The Cyclist]

13 hours ago, topt said:

Wrong - State pension (not govt. pension which is different) is specifically excluded from the UK/Thai DTA. Been mentioned loads of times - please keep up.........

I have never mentioned State Pensions ( Nor I am in reciept of a State Pension )

 

Some people would do well to understand that some people actually know the difference between a State Pension and a Government Pension. You can also throw in the difference in a Private Pension just for good measure.

 

Happy ? Good, keep calm and carry on.

 

Extra bit added

 

I fully agree and accept that people who are remitting State Pensions / Private Pensions may well get caught up after the 01 January.

 

We wont know this until further clarification comes from the RD.

 

In the meantime, until such times as the muddy waters become clearer, it would be wise to take any steps people deem neccessary to limit their exposure after the 01 Jan, if they feel they potentially will get caught up in it.

Edited October 17, 2023 by The Cyclist
Typo

[The Cyclist]

Portugal is doing away with its Golden Visa and 10% tax rate as it is claimed that it is causing chaos with the price of Social / affordable housing.

 

How anyone can think that £500,000 and above properties causes chaos with the price of Social / affordable housing is discussion that would be interesting from a fly on the wall perspective.

 

It has an interesting line about UK Government Pension

 

Quote

Perhaps the most appealing of the many incentives through the non-habitual residency (NHR) programme is that pension income is only taxed at a flat rate of 10pc, as long as it is sourced from abroad for 10 years. The only exception is government employee pensions, which are always taxable in Britain.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/retirement/retirees-are-living-the-high-life-in-low-tax-portugal/

 

 

[topt]

12 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I have never mentioned State Pensions ( Nor I am in reciept of a State Pension )

 

Some people would do well to understand that some people actually know the difference between a State Pension and a Government Pension. You can also throw in the difference in a Private Pension just for good measure.

 

Happy ? Good carry on.

No but you replied to Mike Lister below - (my bolded and underlining)

18 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Umm, I'm not going to change anything, I receive 65K a month here in Thailand from two sources and I'm not going to change anything. Bangkok Bank knows that one of those transfers is from US SSc because they had to sign and stamp the form before it was returned to the U and BB insisted on keeping a copy. I'm not sure BB knows the source of the other transfer but its UK State pension related. By my calculation I'm free and clear of Thai tax next year although I may transfer some extra funds before the 1 Jan.

with this 

18 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Agreed as both those sources are covered by DTA's

 

I have stopped 1 source of income as I am not convinced it is covered by a DTA ( Private pension ) working on the assumption that it is better to be safe than sorry, and end up double taxed.

 

My Government Pension will continue as normal, directly remitted to Thailand ( Covered by DTA )

 

Other than that, I can see absolutely no reason to be getting excited at this point in time.

 

Still have the 1st 5 months of 2024 to await clarification and decide if a course of action is neccessary.

Which as I said is incorrect...........

so carry on yourself.

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, topt said:

No but you replied to Mike Lister below - (my bolded and underlining)

with this 

Which as I said is incorrect...........

so carry on yourself.

See my edit above.

 

Yes, that was my reply to Mike Lister, who has stated that his Pension is a Government Pension, which is totally different to a State Pension.

[topt]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

See my edit above.

 

Yes, that was my reply to Mike Lister, who has stated that his Pension is a Government Pension, which is totally different to a State Pension.

He may have said that in another post but in the post you replied to 

Quote

I'm not sure BB knows the source of the other transfer but its UK State pension related.

It is clear that we both know the differences anyway so I am not planning any further responses on this minor comprehension matter.

[Mike Lister]

12 minutes ago, topt said:

He may have said that in another post but in the post you replied to 

It is clear that we both know the differences anyway so I am not planning any further responses on this minor comprehension matter.

 

23 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

See my edit above.

 

Yes, that was my reply to Mike Lister, who has stated that his Pension is a Government Pension, which is totally different to a State Pension.

I'm just amazed that anyone actually reads my post, now I know this I'll pay more attention to what I write in future.

[topt]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

 

I'm just amazed that anyone actually reads my post, now I know this I'll pay more attention to what I write in future.

Do you want to say which it is for potential future total clarification.........(that's my laughing emoji on your post by the way)

UK State or Government pension that is?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, topt said:

Do you want to say which it is for potential future total clarification.........(that's my laughing emoji on your post by the way)

UK State or Government pension that is?

Sure, why not, I love all the attention. ????

 

I said it was a State Pension, I don't recall ever saying that I receive a Government Pension. But if I did so I didn't intend to and I'll be sure to whip myself thoroughly before I go to bed. 

[Dogmatix]

For those who need to remit income, as or soon after it arises, from which tax is not yet been paid or deducted, it seems that they will have to pay Thai tax and claim the Thai tax credits later, rather than the other way round, if the income is from a country with a DTA.  Taking the UK as an example.  A retiree might remit a combination of state pension and private pension, from which tax is not deducted at source, in the month is arises to live on. (I am not sure of the rules for deduction of tax from UK private pensions but I have a small private pension that is paid to my UK bank account without tax deductions.)  Actually in this example the retiree should have been paying Thai tax on income remitted in the year it was earned all along and who knows, if they will start auditing the past years of those who start filing tax returns showing income remitted as soon as it arises. It would be like shooting fish in a barrel, since nearly all would be guilty of Thai tax evasion under the old rules. 

 

Anyway you have to file the Thai tax return by end March and pay tax, while the UK tax year ends 5 April. So it is unlikely you will be able to produce foreign tax credits unless you are remitting income from the previous tax year which is tax free under the old rules.  At any rate, it might be easier to pay the full Thai tax and claim the Thai tax credit at home, not counting the hassles of translation, because, if you pay tax at home and the Thai tax assessment is greater, you will have to pay the difference to the RD and claim the foreign tax credit anyway.

 

 

[JackGats]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:40 AM, stat said:

Is there any way to get interest on Baht or USD deposit in TH? (pls no crypto talk) As far as i understand if I invest with a thai broker my cap gains are again taxable in Thailand so not a viable option. Currently you get around 4.6% on USD deposits so you would lose out on this interest while parking money in Thailand. Agreed better then paying 20% taxes but still..

Set up a brokerage account and buy Thai revenue stocks. Dividends will be taxed 10% automatically (withholding tax, nothing to do on your part). You don't need a Thai tax-ID for this. As far as I know capital gains, ie selling with a profit, are tax-free in Thailand. Not a bad deal at all.

 

Stocks like Tisco financial, PTTET, ...

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

A retiree might remit a combination of state pension and private pension, from which tax is not deducted at source, in the month is arises to live on.

I have 2 pensions presently coming into Thailand.

 

Both Pensions send me an annual P60 which shows the annual amount paid and the total tax paid.

 

The both also send an Statement of future earnings. Which shows the monthly amount to be deposited and the tax deducted.

 

It might be fair to think that all pensions that are above the £12570 UK threshold supplies the same information on an annual basis.

 

No idea what the State Pension provides in the way of paperwork or pensions below the UK tax threshold. I suggest that if people are not receiving these, that they get ontotheir pension administrator / provider and ask for them to be sent.

[lainy simants]

On 10/16/2023 at 4:33 PM, redwood1 said:

We transfer money from UK month just to live on rent , food we transfer about £400 sterling how much would we get tax on that thought they wanted expats in no drive them away

 

[scorecard]

On 10/17/2023 at 8:56 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes you do.  Calm down and have another beer - and stop reading posts on this matter.

QUOTE FROM ABOVE:  "Assessable income, as per the new rules starting on 01 Jan 2024 appear to be

* Earnings from occupation

* Earnings from Business,

* Wealth located abroad 

Remitted to Thailand.

Not a single mention of DTA's that cover other sources of income."

 

What is DTA please?

Thank you.

 

[Happy happy]

A number of recent postings here are mentioning retirees having to pay taxes: those in Thailand more than 180 days annually who have retirement visas.

 

The current Revenue Dept practice is that retirees here  in Thailand for more than 180 days are NOT currently obliged to pay Thai taxes.

And are not required to file tax returns.

This practice ought to apply even after the new regulations.

And there is nothing that has been announced so far to change this practice.

 

Persons suggesting otherwise are therefore clueless and are scaremongering and causing anxiety to many people.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Happy happy

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, Happy happy said:

A number of recent postings here are mentioning retirees having to pay taxes: those in Thailand more than 180 days annually who have retirement visas.

 

The current Revenue Dept practice is that retirees here  in Thailand for more than 180 days are NOT currently obliged to pay Thai taxes.

And are not required to file tax returns.

This practice ought to apply even after the new regulations.

And there is nothing that has been announced so far to change this practice.

 

Persons suggesting otherwise are therefore clueless and are scaremongering and causing anxiety to many people.

You are mistaken. The current RD practise is that anyone, Thai or foreigner, who wants to declare income or reclaim tax with held on bank savings, MUST file a tax return. In filing that return you are also required to declare the rest of your income, not just the part that pertains to tax with held on bank savings. If you do otherwise your are guilty of filing a fraudulent tax return.

 

The RD code is also very clear that any tax resident who earns assessable income of more than 60k Baht per year, must file a tax return, there is no exclusion for foreigners.

 

Finally, the RD code is also clear that anyone who resides in Thailand for more than 180 days, is tax resident.

 

As for practise, the RD sends me a tax return to complete every year, this is because I have filed them in the past, that is their practise as far as this foreigner is concerned. The fact that the RD has not gone out knocking on foreigners doors in the post is because they have not always had the tools to identify foreigners income. Now they do, the banks record those international transfers as "income" that must be accounted for.

 

 

 

 

[Happy happy]

23 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You are mistaken. The current RD practise is that anyone, Thai or foreigner, who wants to declare income or reclaim tax with held on bank savings, MUST file a tax return. In filing that return you are also required to declare the rest of your income, not just the part that pertains to tax with held on bank savings. If you do otherwise your are guilty of filing a fraudulent tax return.

 

The RD code is also very clear that any tax resident who earns assessable income of more than 60k Baht per year, must file a tax return, there is no exclusion for foreigners.

 

Finally, the RD code is also clear that anyone who resides in Thailand for more than 180 days, is tax resident.

 

As for practise, the RD sends me a tax return to complete every year, this is because I have filed them in the past, that is their practise as far as this foreigner is concerned. The fact that the RD has not gone out knocking on foreigners doors in the post is because they have not always had the tools to identify foreigners income. Now they do, the banks record those international transfers as "income" that must be accounted for.

 

 

 

 

No you are mistaken.

More scaremongering!

The RD have told many retirees if their income is brought into Thailand and they are covered by a double taxation agreement they are not expected to file returns or pay taxes.

I omitted double taxation agreement in my earlier post but most retirees here are covered by that.

If however you choose to pay taxes and/or bring income into Thailand that is not covered by a double taxation agreement the position is maybe different.

 

 

 

ps no need to argue with me: wait for the new regs to see if it is stated that retirees and/or those under double taxation are now expected to file returns etc.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Happy happy

[scorecard]

39 minutes ago, scorecard said:

QUOTE FROM ABOVE:  "Assessable income, as per the new rules starting on 01 Jan 2024 appear to be

* Earnings from occupation

* Earnings from Business,

* Wealth located abroad 

Remitted to Thailand.

Not a single mention of DTA's that cover other sources of income."

 

What is DTA please?

Thank you.

 

Got it Double Tax Ageement.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Happy happy said:

No you are mistaken.

More scaremongering!

The RD have told many retirees if their income is brought into Thailand and they are covered by a double taxation agreement they are not expected to file returns or pay taxes.

I omitted double taxation agreement in my earlier post but most retirees here are covered by that.

If however you choose to pay taxes and/or bring income into Thailand that is not covered by a double taxation agreement the position is maybe different.

 

 

 

Ah, so you refer to DTA, that changes my response somewhat.

 

I stand by my earlier post but agree that there is a lot of scaremongering by some posters, mostly by one or two prolific posters on this subject, in respect of DTA's and what might happen. That said, it is far too simplistic to say the things you wrote in bold because not enough information is confirmed at this point. The existence of a DTA  does not remove the obligation to file a tax return, that is 100% certain, neither does it negate the need to pay tax in Thailand, that is also 100% certain. But what items might be included under different DTA's and the associated rates of tax on those things, is very unclear.. 

 

 

[scorecard]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Ah, so you refer to DTA, that changes my response somewhat.

 

I stand by my earlier post but agree that there is a lot of scaremongering by some posters, mostly by one or two prolific posters on this subject, in respect of DTA's and what might happen. That said, it is far too simplistic to say the things you wrote in bold because not enough information is confirmed at this point. The existence of a DTA  does not remove the obligation to file a tax return, that is 100% certain, neither does it negate the need to pay tax in Thailand, that is also 100% certain. But what items might be included under different DTA's and the associated rates of tax on those things, is very unclear.. 

 

 

DTA is a positive for many but here's one exception (or maybe it's not an exception).

 

The Aussie Old Age Pension is by specific law exempt from all taxation. The Aussie War Vets pension and war disability pension is also, by specific law, exempt fom taxation.

 

Australia has had a DTA with Thailand for decades.

 

So does the fact there's an existing DTA in place between the 2 countries mean all state pensions automatically forwarded (by inter. funds transfers) to Thailand forwarded to Thailand are exempt from Thai taxes and no need to lodge a Thai personal tax return?

 

Or is the above 'cancelled' if the state pension received is above the Thai peronal tax threshold?