On 11/11/2023 at 3:37 PM, Mike Lister said:

I do, I'm a good boy. :))

The existing regulation isn't enforced nor do the Thai authorities expect foreign residents or Thais to pay tax on overseas non current income streams.That of course may change wef 2024.Let's see.If I am required by law to pay more tax, that's fine.

 

For those who pay tax unnecessarily I can think of several adjectives - public spirited, hopelessly naive etc but 'good' doesn't really come to mind.

 

Those foreigners who have a desperate need to pay tax regardless of whether it is required or not can always write a cheque and send it to the Thai Ministry of Finance.I'm sure it would be welcomed.

8 minutes ago, jayboy said:

The existing regulation isn't enforced nor do the Thai authorities expect foreign residents or Thais to pay tax on overseas non current income streams.That of course may change wef 2024.Let's see.If I am required by law to pay more tax, that's fine.

 

For those who pay tax unnecessarily I can think of several adjectives - public spirited, hopelessly naive etc but 'good' doesn't really come to mind.

 

Those foreigners who have a desperate need to pay tax regardless of whether it is required or not can always write a cheque and send it to the Thai Ministry of Finance.I'm sure it would be welcomed.

It sounds like you're chastising me for filing a tax return, as the law requires, what can be said!

I paid  taxes in Israel, Germany, France, Australia  and not yet in Thailand. In  the former four countries there was, everywhere,  intangible evidence of the return on my tax investment. Australia paid me employment benefits even  before I paid my first cent of Tax. Here for 25% of my hard earned income I'll benefit from the "friendly" services of Thai immigration and perpetual potholes. So I think there is some sense in minimising the tax we'll pay here.

On 11/10/2023 at 8:56 AM, Mike Lister said:

The state pension is still under the PA threshold, even after the increase in April.

Yes, but you are ASSUMING that is all the income someone has - that is rarely the case and it IS TAXABLE.

15 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It sounds like you're chastising me for filing a tax return, as the law requires, what can be said!

 

Far from it: it could be a simple sense of duty which in some ways I admire but it's a personal decision to voluntarily pay tax when the authorities do not in practice require it to be paid.However there are plenty of laws in every country on the statute book which are not enforced.

 

Let's see what 2024 brings.

 

 

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

Yes, but you are ASSUMING that is all the income someone has - that is rarely the case and it IS TAXABLE.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm merely stating a a fact. What other income a person may or may not have is not part of the point being made.

Just now, Mike Lister said:

I'm not assuming anything, I'm merely stating a a fact. What other income a person may or may not have is not part of the point being made.

 

Yes, it is, someone said the UK pension is not taxable - it is, and that is blatant misinformation. All income is taxable in the UK it is NOT a state benefit that avoids tax.

12 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Far from it: it could be a simple sense of duty which in some ways I admire but it's a personal decision to voluntarily pay tax when the authorities do not in practice require it to be paid.However there are plenty of laws in every country on the statute book which are not enforced.

 

Let's see what 2024 brings.

 

 

I'm actually not that civic minded but I could see many years ago that we would reach this point and I didn't want to get caught out, in case somebody in the RD wanted to go digging into my history. I now have three years returns under my belt, even the lady at the RD asked me why I was filing when I didn't get a refund so I had to explain what the law and RD rules are.

13 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

Yes, it is, someone said the UK pension is not taxable - it is, and that is blatant misinformation. All income is taxable in the UK it is NOT a state benefit that avoids tax.

I'm not going to argue with you, the State pension is at the bottom of the personal allowance stack, the total amount of the full state pension is still less than the personal allowance, ergo, it is not taxable (at present). If people have other income that sits on top of the pension, that is taxable. Now, if you ask the question, is the state pension capable of being taxed, if it exceeds the value of the personal allowance, the answer is maybe, we don't know for sure what government will or wont do if ever that point is reached. It has been said that in the event the state pension begins to exceed the personal allowance, the personal allowance will be managed upwards to ensure the state pension is not taxed. Why? Because it would be disingenuous to say the least if the government were to pay people the state pension and then demand a portion back in taxes. Done, out.

 

Government responded

This response was given on 31 July 2023

The Personal Allowance is high enough that pensioners whose sole income is the new or basic State Pension do not pay income tax. The State Pension is designed to replace income and so is taxable.

It is important to note that the PA is currently set at a level high enough to ensure that those pensioners whose sole income is the new State Pension or basic State Pension do not pay any income tax.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/635729

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm not going to argue with you, the State pension is at the bottom of the personal allowance stack, the total amount of the full state pension is still less than the personal allowance, ergo, it is not taxable (at present). If people have other income that sits on top of the pension, that is taxable. Now, if you ask the question, is the state pension capable of being taxed, if it exceeds the value of the personal allowance, the answer is maybe, we don't know for sure what government will or wont do if ever that point is reached. It has been said that in the event the state pension begins to exceed the personal allowance, the personal allowance will be managed upwards to ensure the state pension is not taxed. Why? Because it would be disingenuous to say the least if the government were to pay people the state pension and then demand a portion back in taxes. Done, out.

 

Government responded

This response was given on 31 July 2023

The Personal Allowance is high enough that pensioners whose sole income is the new or basic State Pension do not pay income tax. The State Pension is designed to replace income and so is taxable.

It is important to note that the PA is currently set at a level high enough to ensure that those pensioners whose sole income is the new State Pension or basic State Pension do not pay any income tax.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/635729

 

I have more than one government pension - it is taxed.

6 hours ago, jayboy said:

The existing regulation isn't enforced nor do the Thai authorities expect foreign residents or Thais to pay tax on overseas non current income streams.That of course may change wef 2024.Let's see.If I am required by law to pay more tax, that's fine.

 

For those who pay tax unnecessarily I can think of several adjectives - public spirited, hopelessly naive etc but 'good' doesn't really come to mind.

 

Those foreigners who have a desperate need to pay tax regardless of whether it is required or not can always write a cheque and send it to the Thai Ministry of Finance.I'm sure it would be welcomed.

I haven't written a cheque in 15 years and I don't know anyone who does these days...

19 hours ago, morg said:

I rent property in UK will I have to pay tax

 

Do you pay tax in the UK on your rental income?

Can you produce documentation showing how much you've paid?

Are you going to remit that taxed rental income to Thailand?

If your answers are all YES then you shouldn't have to pay tax in Thailand because the UK has a DTA and you've already been taxed there.

If your answers are NO (but you do remit the money to Thailand) then you may be facing tax in Thailand on that remittance - if they go ahead with this new law in Jan 2024.

 

Will we have to pay tax on our pensions from our home countries?

3 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 

I have more than one government pension - it is taxed.

The State Pension is not a government pension, government pensions are  taxable, just as private pensions are taxable.

5 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 

Yes, it is, someone said the UK pension is not taxable - it is, and that is blatant misinformation. All income is taxable in the UK it is NOT a state benefit that avoids tax.

 

11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm actually not that civic minded but I could see many years ago that we would reach this point and I didn't want to get caught out, in case somebody in the RD wanted to go digging into my history. I now have three years returns under my belt, even the lady at the RD asked me why I was filing when I didn't get a refund so I had to explain what the law and RD rules are.

Oh dear

10 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

It is important to note that the PA is currently set at a level high enough to ensure that those pensioners whose sole income is the new State Pension or basic State Pension do not pay any income tax.

 

The 10.1% increase in April 2023 and the ( as yet undecided, either 8.5% or 7.9% in April 2024 ) will put many State Pensioners over the £12,570 tax threshold.

Just now, jayboy said:

Oh dear

I don't understand what your problem is, it doesn't cost me anything and I don't pay any extra tax plus it means my tax return here is legal. Contrast that with the hundreds of tax returns that expats have filed to recover tax paid on bank interest and have not bothered to complete the rest of the return regarding income details. How about if the RD does decide it wants to audit a few people, anyone who gets their pension deposited directly into a Thai bank (as I do) but didn't declare it when they reclaimed the tax paid on bank interest could get well and truly stuffed for filing a fraudulent return.

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The 10.1% increase in April 2023 and the ( as yet undecided, either 8.5% or 7.9% in April 2024 ) will put many State Pensioners over the £12,570 tax threshold.

Does it? I read that the forthcoming increase would maintain it below the PA. If the state pension is 201 pounds per week, that's 11,051 per year if increased by 8.5%.

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't understand what your problem is, it doesn't cost me anything and I don't pay any extra tax plus it means my tax return here is legal. Contrast that with the hundreds of tax returns that expats have filed to recover tax paid on bank interest and have not bothered to complete the rest of the return regarding income details. How about if the RD does decide it wants to audit a few people, anyone who gets their pension deposited directly into a Thai bank (as I do) but didn't declare it when they reclaimed the tax paid on bank interest could get well and truly stuffed for filing a fraudulent return.

 

No comment.

Just now, BobBKK said:

 

I have more than one government pension - it is taxed.

Government or non-Government list

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343040

 

If they are Government pensions on that list, the UK will always tax it in the UK

Discussing a Civil Service pension with HMRC (albiet 5 years ago) it is covered by the UK Thailand DTA, however she said it is possible in some cases they would want the tax paid and refund it. but probably not.  (discussion was context assuming I was basic rate mortal e.g. under £50kish these days, but only£30k ish in Thailand )   

 

 

This wording is on the tax coding letter for someone who's state pension exceeds the personal allowance;-

 

"State Pension Note 2. This income is taxable but tax is not taken off the pension before it is paid to you.

We will use the tax-free allowance against your pension so you pay tax on this" ....

 

The State pension amount exceeding the personal tax allowance is then added to another pension and has tax paid by that scheme.

 

So if you are below the personal tax free allowance, that goes against the other pensions.

 

I'm not sure what they do if you don't have another pension in payment..

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Does it? I read that the forthcoming increase would maintain it below the PA. If the state pension is 201 pounds per week, that's 11,051 per year if increased by 8.5%.

 

That is the new pension.

 

I believe it applies to people on the old pension who also have the SERPS 2 or whatever it was called.

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

That is the new pension.

 

I believe it applies to people on the old pension who also have the SERPS 2 or whatever it was called.

I'm on the old pension and that's even lower. I was contracted out on SERPS but that part of my pension isn't State pension, it's private.

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm on the old pension and that's even lower.

 

Yes, that is possible, especially if

 

1 - You are on a frozen pension.

 

2 - You were previously opted out

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes, that is possible, especially if

 

1 - You are on a frozen pension.

 

2 - You were previously opted out

My state pension is frozen but every few years I return and it gets uprated, I did that last, 5 years ago by moving into my UK flat and saying I'd returned.

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

My state pension is frozen but every few years I return and it gets uprated, I did that last, 5 years ago by moving into my UK flat and saying I'd returned.

 

In the last 5 years you will have lost about 20-25% in annual increases.

 

Were you ever " Opted out " in previous employment ?
 

That would explain your lower level of pension.

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I was contracted out on SERPS but that part of my pension isn't State pension, it's private.

 

When you are " Opted out " it means that you paid a reduced rate of NI for the years that you were opted out.

 

That reduction in NI equates to a reduction in the State Pension, it also means that you do not qualify for SERPS 2, or whatever it was called.

 

Nothing to do with a Private pension.

12 hours ago, jayboy said:

The existing regulation isn't enforced nor do the Thai authorities expect foreign residents or Thais to pay tax on overseas non current income streams.That of course may change wef 2024.Let's see.If I am required by law to pay more tax, that's fine.

 

For those who pay tax unnecessarily I can think of several adjectives - public spirited, hopelessly naive etc but 'good' doesn't really come to mind.

 

Those foreigners who have a desperate need to pay tax regardless of whether it is required or not can always write a cheque and send it to the Thai Ministry of Finance.I'm sure it would be welcomed.

Give me a break While the rich in Thailand avoid paying hardly any tax at all, foreigners should rejoice that they're going to be double or triple taxed? Ask Bill Gates, Elon Musk, and all the other rich guys how they feel about that. But I guess you would say they lack "public spirit."

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

In the last 5 years you will have lost about 20-25% in annual increases.

 

Were you ever " Opted out " in previous employment ?
 

That would explain your lower level of pension.

Yes of course, I contracted out and that money was invested in a Self Invested Personal Pension (SIPP) with Hargreaves Lansdowne and now gives me a monthly income that is equal to the state pension. In total, my state pension and SIPP income is far higher than the new state pension, plus I can control how much i receive, and it's still invested. For those reasons I don't too much care about losing the 20 or 25% in increases.

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

When you are " Opted out " it means that you paid a reduced rate of NI for the years that you were opted out.

 

That reduction in NI equates to a reduction in the State Pension, it also means that you do not qualify for SERPS 2, or whatever it was called.

 

Nothing to do with a Private pension.

"What is contracting out. If you were contracted out of the Additional State Pension (also known as State Second Pension or 'SERPs') your National Insurance contributions were either: lower than people paying into the Additional State Pension. paid into another pension, for example a private pension".

 

https://www.gov.uk/contracted-out#:~:text=were contracted out-,What is contracting out,for example a private pension