Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

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[DUNROAMIN]

Crack down on Taxes, drugs, helmits, drink driver, corruption, blah, blah,blah, worry about it if it ever happens.

[mokwit]

8 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

.... So probably you will need tax documents from overseas for the exact amount that you remit showing you have paid tax on that.  Documents of course to be certified by the overseas tax authority, legalized by a Thai embassy in that country and then translated by a certified translator and notarized by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Exactly this, it will likely be up to us to provide proof in a format specified by them.

8 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

"The program will begin January 1, 2024 and apply only to tax residents in Thailand meaning tourists and short term workers will be exempt. Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand."

'have been taxed' Could mean we have to prove we have been taxed, rather than an automatic exemption based on treaties.

[Quit]

8 hours ago, thaibreaker said:

Far, far from it. In my country, the taxes on a 65.000 baht monthly pension, is under 2 %.

Yes, you read that correctly.

 

The question I might ask, is if these new rules will make you have to pay the dividend. That would be devastating for most foreigners.

Fair enough. But what is called "pension" is sometimes an income (if you are not retired yet) and may be taxed differently. Comparing income taxes of the world I saw that the US on average is over 30, the UK over 40 percent, some Scandinavian countries over 50. I could actually save some money if I had to pay taxes here, at least because I wouldn't need a specialist anymore as the tax form seems to be simple.

[mania]

19 hours ago, Sheryl said:

if you are from a country with a double Tax Agreement, and if the money you bring in has already been taxed (at the time earned) in your home country or is currently subject to tax there, it cannot be taxed in Thailand.

 

True & easy enough to understand but.......

 

This being Thailand I wonder who the burden of proof will be on? ????

 

Actually I am 99.99% sure the proof will fall on the same folks who could no longer get proof from embassies about income much less taxation from their home country. So that might be sticky

 

But at the end of the day the one thing little knee jerk decisions like this show us is we can never be sure that at any time in the future goal posts regarding legality of living here might change & we should always have a plan B ????

[daveAustin]

For ‘tax residents’. Are retirees/non-employed married folk here considered tax residents? I think not. Whether they make it all encompassing is another thing. Wouldn’t put it past them, but also that it never happens. 

[bluemoon58]

21 hours ago, jvs said:

More info needed for sure but if it means retirees have to pay tax here

there will be not enough airplanes going back to Europe and other countries.

It will be a total disaster for many people including me.

Lets just wait for the small print before getting all worried and hope for the best.

On the other hand,if you have to pay tax here it should also give you some rights?

Probably not.

My thoughts exactly jvs. Let it play out and if they end up wanting to tax the money I've already paid tax on, I'm off, never to return!

Edited September 19, 2023 by bluemoon58

[mania]

When you think about it....There is really only one way they are going to be able to implement his scheme...

 

They will need to tax every incoming transfer & then ask those who are not obligated to pay or part of the tax treaty to file a refund request. Same as we did for bank interest. (back when they paid 4% here)

Which was not that hard but you do need to set it up initially

 

Because thinking about it wouldn't it be nearly impossible for them to decide on each transfer where that money originated from? Like oh.... this is Wally's SS money no tax.....Oh this is Steve's income from abroad tax etc etc

 

So more likely a sweeping tax on all transfers & then let refund claims sort it out with proof.

 

Side benefit being those who do not claim same as many do not claim refund of taxed interest on bank saving

Edited September 19, 2023 by mania

[mokwit]

1 minute ago, mania said:

When you think about it....There is really only one way they are going to be able to implement his scheme...

More likely have to show a tax certificate from Thai RD when renewing a one year extension as with WP/NonB. I am sure the tax period dates will have to line up exactly with the extension dates.

[quake]

Think it may get interesting in 2024

at the airports and land boarders.

with Thai's coming in with

10 baht of gold hanging on them, Rolex watches , handbags

and suit cases stuffed with money.

Will be lots of photo ops and pointing. 

 

[mania]

19 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

They cannot even enforce tax laws at home. How are they going to attempt to police overseas income? Perhaps they could get the weak, and highly complicit banks to cooperate?

I think it may be easier than we think...Why? Because they use the same method they used when embassies stopped supplying the proof of income letters for visa extensions...

 

That method is? You prove it to us not we go find the answer....you prove it

 

Ok so Social Security is a simple one as SS provides the proof of SS letter to everyone thru their online SS account.

 

Anything transferred in above that is going to be a bit harder to suss out. So yeah kinda foolhardy of Thailand as it basically will reduce what is brought in & spent....but they never were the sharpest in these matters. ????

Edited September 19, 2023 by mania

[GeorgeCross]

15 minutes ago, daveAustin said:

For ‘tax residents’. Are retirees/non-employed married folk here considered tax residents? I think not. Whether they make it all encompassing is another thing. Wouldn’t put it past them, but also that it never happens. 

your visa status is irrelevent, if you are here more than 180 days in a tax year you are a tax resident of thailand.

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

Presumably if you're a citizen of a country with an anti double taxation agreement they wouldn't bother with you at all. Sounds like this whole thing is aimed at Thais evading taxes, not foreigners. But again it remains to be seen how this is actually applied.

Yes I am starting to think this might be aimed at powerful figures who have been sending ill gotten gains overseas since 2014 and now wish to start bringing it back now their time at the trough has been limited.

[jacko45k]

19 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

If they get involved in collecting taxes on a mass scale their minds will melt.

Well they have failed taxing their own people so foreigners is the obvious target. And we can't vote them out, dispute or protest, so we get the taxation without representation stuffed where the sun don't shine I expect! 

[Garry]

Found this guideline article

What Does Tax Residence Mean in Thailand?

Whether you incur a tax liability in Thailand depends on residence and source rules regarding taxable income.

You are considered a Thai tax resident by the tax authorities in Thailand if you are present in the country for a total of at least 180 days in a given tax year. Your assessable income is Thai-sourced income, as in income derived from sources in Thailand.

You are also subject to Thai taxation on foreign-sourced income, but only if this income derived from abroad is remitted to Thailand in the same year it is received.

Personal income tax must be filed by March 31. According to the Thai Revenue Code, individual taxpayers are classified into five categories, and assessable income is into eight categories.

When it comes to such income as employment income, all tax benefits are assessable unless expressly exempt by law. These include bonuses, bounties, directors’ fees, gratuities, house rent allowances, salaries, and wages

https://nomadcapitalist.com/global-citizen/establishing-thai-tax-residence/#:~:text=affordable living standards.-,What Does Tax Residence Mean in Thailand%3F,in a given tax year.

[daveAustin]

14 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

your visa status is irrelevent, if you are here more than 180 days in a tax year you are a tax resident of thailand.

Yes indeed, they can do this. 

[GeorgeCross]

26 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Yes I am starting to think this might be aimed at powerful figures who have been sending ill gotten gains overseas since 2014 and now wish to start bringing it back now their time at the trough has been limited.

yeah but thats the dumbest thing ever, 3 months in london and 3 more in dubai and you can recieve a tax free lump sum from your freshly incorporated wealth management company.

 

it should also be noted that the wealthy generally keep their wealth offshore to protect against rogue governments and capital controls, not to avoid tax. tax is easy to avoid, their companies hold and pay for everything. any tax paid is just a virtue signal or a cost to do business in a high corporate tax jurisdiction.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by GeorgeCross

[lordgrinz]

46 minutes ago, mania said:

But at the end of the day the one thing little knee jerk decisions like this show us is we can never be sure that at any time in the future goal posts regarding legality of living here might change & we should always have a plan B ????

I don't want to live my life worrying about a Plan B, I like stability, clean air/water, well established and enforced rules of law, and I like safety. None of these are obtainable while living in Thailand, I just wish I could get my wife to see that. To me, living in Thailand is like living in Hell, all I want to do is get my family out of here.

[mikebell]

16 hours ago, trainman34014 said:

Re the second part of your question....Yes; you can reclaim the Tax on your 800k and Tax on any other Savings or Fixed rate account that you have.   I've been doing it for 15 years; you need to visit your local Tax Office to get details of how to claim and what's needed.  Once you have claimed once they will give you a Tax Number which speeds up the process in future years.

Thank you.

[jaywalker2]

As it stands now, this wouldn't affect retirees, who are not registered with the tax office. But it seems the powers that be are determined to screw farangs as much as possible so it's hard to feel confident.

[mikebell]

20 hours ago, Thaindrew said:

use an ATM card from your home country rather than transferring funds in that should negate any need to pay tax

Won't that be expensive in UK bank charges?  If I use my Thai ATM to withdraw 10K a week, how much would it cost to draw the same from an English bank?  Are there some cards/UK banks cheaper than others?

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Which is?

Cut and paste from earlier in this thread:

[gamb00ler]

19 hours ago, jaideedave said:

Yes thats an easy solution that I used to do. I started using Wise to eliminate/reduce the transfer fees. My Canadian bank fees add up fast. I will revert to that method again if necessary.

I suggest you consider opening a Charles Schwab International account.  If the fees are the same as for US nationals, they're quite low.  Canadian banks are definitely fee heavy.

[Ben Zioner]

9 hours ago, khunjeff said:

It's not just advertised as a benefit, it was also legally implemented - Royal Decree no. 743, gazetted on 23 May 2022 ("Decree Issued in Accordance with the Revenue Code Concerning the Reduction of Tax Rates and Exemptions (No. 257") made the exemption official.

 

Thanks, I attach the text of  the Decree. I have no idea it this has, will, can be repealed by the tax change.

dc743_ENG_Google.pdf dc743.pdf

[daveAustin]

21 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

"Tax resident" and their definition of same may be the key here. I would assume something they are doing to combat offshore laundering? If they are simply going to tax pensions or people transferring money over here I will be out of here in 6 months. Surely even Thailand wouldn't have the audacity to do that. Must be looking for extra $$$ to fund there 10000 baht per person election promise / giveaway 

That could be their intention if it is indeed a catchall… to clear some farang out and to also catch locals bringing in vast wealth. If you look at it with xenophobe eyes it is quite neat. 

[GeorgeCross]

26 minutes ago, jaywalker2 said:

As it stands now, this wouldn't affect retirees, who are not registered with the tax office. But it seems the powers that be are determined to screw farangs as much as possible so it's hard to feel confident.

i believe you are required by law to register with the tax office if you are liable to pay taxes and as pensions are covered under section 40 as an income you will all have to. hope i'm wrong as my local bars will get even lonelier, but thats my reading.

 

Quote

Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer. 

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.⁴

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by GeorgeCross

[Joebuzzz]

21 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

This is not just earned income or capital gains.  It seems to mean any funds that "in come" to Thailand will be considered income and taxed, including from personal savings.

 

And this would confirm it.  Wise transfers from a personal savings accounts outside Thailand would then be considered taxable income.

 

We'll see, but I suspect requiring expats to file Thai tax refund forms every year to maybe get back some of the 15% on their savings they brought in over the year may result in a good number moving elsewhere.

 

Expats living on their savings and interest, not earning enough to pay tax in their home countries, may not find the relevant tax treaties to be relevant.

 

 

I for one, can assure you, I'd be outta here.  I've already been considering leaving so this would just be a final nail in the coffin.

[Thaindrew]

11 hours ago, mran66 said:

 

Anyone actually know how the taxation in Cambodia is for the non-Cambodia source income, esp capital income?

 

If indeed the worst case would happen i.e Thailand suddenly would start taxing residents of global income, need to start looking for new tax residence.  If only for the part of income sent to Thailand, maybe could handle as in reality can circumvent for large part, but if indeed they would require tax on all income regardless of whether sent here or not, that would be a bummer.

 

China at least used to be  good, only taxing China source income, but don't really fancy going back there, thus would need to look at other places with good tax regime for non-local source income

china also taxing global income now if you are there more than 180 days, that why I moved to Thailand.

[phetphet]

10 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

That is not what the RD is saying. They are saying that any overseas sourced income parked in a bank account for a number of years and remitted to Thailand is potentially taxable in the year it comes in. 

But isn't there a rule that any income brought into Thailand more than 12 months after it was earned is no liable to taxation? Are you saying that is now being changed?

[marino28]

I think we have to wait for the details.