Analysis Israel's options don't look good - but a full-scale military campaign in the near future is inevitable

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yea right.................

 

 

Now in police custody........555

 

https://twitter.com/metpoliceuk/status/1716177568036999268

 

[Morch]

10 hours ago, placnx said:

Fear of being doxed is not it. Rather it's concentrating on what's important - saving lives in Gaza.

 

You should try to see the situation of these people under occupation, put yourself in their shoes. In the West Bank, the settlers supported by the IDF are a nightmare getting worse by the day. Nonetheless, if Israel would give them back a life in the West Bank where they could live and thrive, meaning that settlers in their midst would have to go, no more apartheid, I'm confident that there could be genuine peace. Gaza would be integrated with the West Bank, and elections would replace the dinosaurs in the PA.

The Gaza Strip is ruled by Hamas. Israel usually responds to Hamas attacks. Somehow in your account of things, Hamas is not responsible for the consequences of actions. Same stance, essentially, as you hold with regard to the PA and all of the Palestinians.

 

There is nothing seriously preventing the Palestinians from holding elections.

 

Your confidence that there could be genuine peace is not supported by the Hamas's agenda.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Exactly right. While sacrificing thousands of Gazans ( and increasing numbers of West Bank Palestinians ) may seem extreme, the calculation IMO was that many had to die to gain freedom from israel, as the usual small attacks were at a high cost in Palestinain lives and achieved nothing. The world is watching as the media thrusts the conflict into the television sets of billions, and probably billions don't like what they are seeing from the israelis with their indiscriminate bombing of residential areas, and over a thousand dead children.

 

If that was the calculation, it seems to be working.

"may seem extreme" ?!

 

Did anyone consult the Gazas about being sacrificed? How come you're not into one of them faux angst displays over the cynical sacrifice of thousands of Palestinian lives? Or is it only 'bad' if you can blame Israel for it?

 

Also, I kinda think that if you can spot the cynicism involved in such an evil plan, many others around the globe could too.

 

 

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I think the last sentence is the relevant one, given the frequency of statements that it is necessary to bomb children because the evil Hamas are hiding behind them. That is the Hamas that is only armed with light weapons, but apparently they are an existential threat to the israelis which are armed with all the heavy weapons and high tech equipment it is possible to possess.

Seems some think that just parroting "Hamas bad, israelis good" will cause all of us to overlook the over 1500 dead children in Gaza as justified "collateral damage" ( which have to be the most vile words ever invented, IMO ).

And yet, on a post above you apparently condone Hamas sacrificing them thousands Palestinian lives.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The inability of Palestinians to organise, unite, and work efficiently for a cause is down to the israelis desire to render the Palestinians impotent, by the restrictions on movement, separation of habitation areas by the walls, and the electronic interception of all phone use by Palestinians.

The reason, no doubt, is that if the Palestinians were able to organise, unite, and work efficiently for a cause it might make it impossible for the israelis to steal all the Palestinian land.

To date they are even unable to provide an effective deterant to the israelis penchant for raiding Palestinian areas and destroying infrastructure while leaving dead Palestinians in their wake, or repel the barbarous settlers with their increasing violent attacks on Palestinians.

More excuses for the Palestinians. Funny how self-proclaimed Palestinian supporters tend to portray the people they support as totally incapable of making rational decision, organizing for a cause or doing much of anything in an effective manner - then asserting that they could run a state, be trusted to sign agreements with and so on.

 

 

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

More excuses for the Palestinians. Funny how self-proclaimed Palestinian supporters tend to portray the people they support as totally incapable of making rational decision, organizing for a cause or doing much of anything in an effective manner - then asserting that they could run a state, be trusted to sign agreements with and so on.

 

 

Actually, 20th and 21st century history shows that when a people are oppressed, toxic conditions ensue. Why should this case be any different?

[Morch]

37 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Actually, 20th and 21st century history shows that when a people are oppressed, toxic conditions ensue. Why should this case be any different?

 

Actually try to address what I said instead of hijacking my post.

 

 

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Actually try to address what I said instead of hijacking my post.

You blame the Palestinians for making allegedly unwise choices. I pointed out even if their choices are unwise, toxic conditions resulting from oppression don't make for cool rational thinking or decent leadership. I think in this case your accusation of hijacking means you have no answer for my very relevant reply. Just because a conversation takes a turn you don't like, that doesn't make it hijacking.

Edited October 23, 2023 by placeholder

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You blame the Palestinians for making allegedly unwise choices. I pointed out even if their choices are unwise, toxic conditions resulting from oppression don't make for cool rational thinking or decent leadership. I think in this case your accusation of hijacking means you have no answer for my very relevant reply. Just because a conversation takes a turn you don't like, that doesn't make it hijacking.

 

Not so much 'blame' as pointing out facts. If there's 'blaming' involved, it's more towards those who deny reality and make all Palestinian failure to be about Israel and other outside forces.

 

In the same way, I'm not 'accusing' you of hijacking, I'm pointing out a fact.

 

You're trying to push a certain angle. It does not directly relate to my post. Not complicated.

 

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Not so much 'blame' as pointing out facts. If there's 'blaming' involved, it's more towards those who deny reality and make all Palestinian failure to be about Israel and other outside forces.

 

In the same way, I'm not 'accusing' you of hijacking, I'm pointing out a fact.

 

You're trying to push a certain angle. It does not directly relate to my post. Not complicated.

 

Addressing the issue of why allegedly bad choices are made does not directly relate to your post? Hmmm....

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Addressing the issue of why allegedly bad choices are made does not directly relate to your post? Hmmm....

 

That's not what you're on about. You're suggesting a wholesale excuse. You can't debate actual points made.

[placnx]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Bait ignored.

Do you support Ben Gvir being in the current government then? The pogroms against Palestinians in the West Bank are fueling serious anger in the West Bank at a time when Israel doesn't need another problem. https://www.timesofisrael.com/ben-gvir-pays-tribute-to-racist-kahane-ultimately-he-was-about-love-of-israel/

[placeholder]

19 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

That's not what you're on about. You're suggesting a wholesale excuse. You can't debate actual points made.

So that's what taking an historical perspective on this is - an excuse. Hmmmm...

[placnx]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I would not call them good Jews if they're attending a rally advocating the genocide of their own (or any other) people. Funny thing about Jews which often antisemites can't process. They are not a monolith. 

These worldwide demonstrations are asking for humanitarian aid and/or ceasefire. BTW I am a member of Jewish Voice for Peace.

[placnx]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The inability of Palestinians to organise, unite, and work efficiently for a cause is down to the israelis desire to render the Palestinians impotent, by the restrictions on movement, separation of habitation areas by the walls, and the electronic interception of all phone use by Palestinians.

The reason, no doubt, is that if the Palestinians were able to organise, unite, and work efficiently for a cause it might make it impossible for the israelis to steal all the Palestinian land.

To date they are even unable to provide an effective deterant to the israelis penchant for raiding Palestinian areas and destroying infrastructure while leaving dead Palestinians in their wake, or repel the barbarous settlers with their increasing violent attacks on Palestinians.

I thought more about the difficulties of Palestinians to organize. Among the simple, non-intellectual, people I think that there's an attitude of fatalism. Here's a current example of how people react to intimidation: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, placnx said:

These worldwide demonstrations are asking for humanitarian aid and/or ceasefire. BTW I am a member of Jewish Voice for Peace.

If they're chanting River to the Sea and you go along with that, that's a shanda.

 

Honestly I think your POV is tragically naive about what most current Free Palestine protesters have in mind for Israeli Jews including the peaceniks.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

17 minutes ago, placnx said:

Do you support Ben Gvir being in the current government then? The pogroms against Palestinians in the West Bank are fueling serious anger in the West Bank at a time when Israel doesn't need another problem. https://www.timesofisrael.com/ben-gvir-pays-tribute-to-racist-kahane-ultimately-he-was-about-love-of-israel/

Bait ignored.

[Nick Carter icp]

15 minutes ago, placnx said:

These worldwide demonstrations are asking for humanitarian aid and/or ceasefire. BTW I am a member of Jewish Voice for Peace.

 

   They are voicing support for a group of people that just murdered 1200 people , 1200 innocent people who were raped, murdered, beheaded and taken hostage , with the murdered peoples age ranging from unborn foetuses to 90 year old Woman , that is who they are showing support for 

[Jingthing]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   They are voicing support for a group of people that just murdered 1200 people , 1200 innocent people who were raped, murdered, beheaded and taken hostage , with the murdered peoples age ranging from unborn foetuses to 90 year old Woman , that is who they are showing support for 

If not explicitly supporting and celebrating it most at least make excuses for it and condemning Hamas for doing their pogrom is uncommon in that crowd.

[Yellowtail]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If they're chanting River to the Sea and you go along with that, that's a shanda.

 

Honestly I think your POV is tragically naive about what most current Free Palestine protesters have in mind for Israeli Jews including the peaceniks.

 

I think these haters only pretend to be naive. They know Palestine wants all Jews dead.

[Nick Carter icp]

21 minutes ago, placnx said:

 BTW I am a member of Jewish Voice for Peace.

 

This is the group that you belong to :

 

"In July 2017, the Anti-Defamation League criticized JVP for what it described as "anti-Israel radicalism" and "questionable tactics" to promote its agenda. The ADL said JVP engaged in "harassing LGBT groups", shouting down pro-Israeli speakers at events, and praising convicted Palestinian terrorists such as Odeh and Marwan Barghouti."

 

The political scientist Miriam Elman argues that JVP discourse toward Israel has moved past legitimate criticism of Israeli policies as the organization frequently uses anti-Semitic imagery.^[77]

 

Writing in the Algemeiner Journal, Abraham Miller called JVP "an organization that is neither a voice for peace nor Jewish, except when Jewish traditions can be manipulated to support the Palestinian cause

 

In 2017, JVP was criticized for inviting Rasmea Odeh, a former PFLP member convicted by Israeli military courts for her role in the 1969 Jerusalem supermarket bombing that killed Israelis Edward Joffee and Leon Kanner, as a featured speaker in its biennial conference.^[66][67][68] Odeh was subsequently deported from the United States after pleading guilty to immigration fraud and losing her American citizenship.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Voice_for_Peace

 

[Yellowtail]

31 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So that's what taking an historical perspective on this is - an excuse. Hmmmm...

Selective historical perspective. Hmmmmm...

[Jingthing]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

 

I think these haters only pretend to be naive. They know Palestine wants all Jews dead.

I hope that isn't usually the case but self hating Jews definitely exist and sadly they are not particularly rare.

[placnx]

5 hours ago, Morch said:

The Gaza Strip is ruled by Hamas. Israel usually responds to Hamas attacks. Somehow in your account of things, Hamas is not responsible for the consequences of actions. Same stance, essentially, as you hold with regard to the PA and all of the Palestinians.

 

There is nothing seriously preventing the Palestinians from holding elections.

 

Your confidence that there could be genuine peace is not supported by the Hamas's agenda.

For the record your generalization about my opinions concerning Hamas. I don't equate inhabitants of the Gaza Strip with Hamas. My concern is humanitarian and for justice for the Palestinians.

 

It's true that the PA is wont to hold elections against any credible opposition, since Abu Mazen's side would lose due to corruption and incompetence. I was just watching a BBC program "Global News Podcast - The Conflict Special Episode 2" in which a newsperson recounted a comment from a high American offical at the time that they would not accept the election results. 

[Yellowtail]

Just now, placnx said:

For the record your generalization about my opinions concerning Hamas. I don't equate inhabitants of the Gaza Strip with Hamas. My concern is humanitarian and for justice for the Palestinians.

 

It's true that the PA is wont to hold elections against any credible opposition, since Abu Mazen's side would lose due to corruption and incompetence. I was just watching a BBC program "Global News Podcast - The Conflict Special Episode 2" in which a newsperson recounted a comment from a high American offical at the time that they would not accept the election results. 

 

But not for the Jews, got it. Typical. 

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

This is the group that you belong to :

 

"In July 2017, the Anti-Defamation League criticized JVP for what it described as "anti-Israel radicalism" and "questionable tactics" to promote its agenda. The ADL said JVP engaged in "harassing LGBT groups", shouting down pro-Israeli speakers at events, and praising convicted Palestinian terrorists such as Odeh and Marwan Barghouti."

 

The political scientist Miriam Elman argues that JVP discourse toward Israel has moved past legitimate criticism of Israeli policies as the organization frequently uses anti-Semitic imagery.^[77]

 

Writing in the Algemeiner Journal, Abraham Miller called JVP "an organization that is neither a voice for peace nor Jewish, except when Jewish traditions can be manipulated to support the Palestinian cause

 

In 2017, JVP was criticized for inviting Rasmea Odeh, a former PFLP member convicted by Israeli military courts for her role in the 1969 Jerusalem supermarket bombing that killed Israelis Edward Joffee and Leon Kanner, as a featured speaker in its biennial conference.^[66][67][68] Odeh was subsequently deported from the United States after pleading guilty to immigration fraud and losing her American citizenship.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Voice_for_Peace

 

and another one outed

[deejai33]

12 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   They are voicing support for a group of people that just murdered 1200 people , 1200 innocent people who were raped, murdered, beheaded and taken hostage , with the murdered peoples age ranging from unborn foetuses to 90 year old Woman , that is who they are showing support for 

 

Your statement seems obviously false to me.   That you consider it accurate and worth posting, says a lot about your outlook and inability to see all sides of the conflict.

 

You state that the worldwide protests are voicing support for Hamas and in particular the attrocity Hamas just carried out.   ( You then provide vivid details of that attricity to gain emotional support).

 

Anyone who has read diverse sources about the worldwide protests will easily see most protesters were in no way supporting Hamas's actions.

 

OK, a very small minority of protesters would have been pleased by Hamas's actions.  But the vast majority did not.

 

Do you not see that your statement is clearly very inaccurate ?

 

[placeholder]

22 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   They are voicing support for a group of people that just murdered 1200 people , 1200 innocent people who were raped, murdered, beheaded and taken hostage , with the murdered peoples age ranging from unborn foetuses to 90 year old Woman , that is who they are showing support for 

What was particularly horrific was all those Hamas babies who committed these atrocities. They need more than a good spanking. Bombs away!

[Thorgal]

Just now, placeholder said:

What was particularly horrific was all those Hamas babies who committed these atrocities. They need more than a good spanking. Bombs away!

 

Wait for the "human shield" argument to pop up and how "Hamas is killing his own people"...

[placeholder]

So, to your way of thinking, justice is a zero sum game. If one party obtains it, that means the other party has been wronged.