Thailand needs to calm down it's rush to EV !

[TorquayFan]

It's becoming increasingly obvious that a widespread rush to EV may be problematic - Thailand (and all Nations), need to find the right role for them.

 

The use of EV in big Cities obviously makes some sense, reducing pollution, in say BKK and Chiang Mai and although EV cause extra pollution in the area the vehicle is manufactured in, it still makes some sense . . . . . though, how do persons living in an apartment block or in a house with no driveway/carport/garage, manage to get the charge supply to the vehicle. Further, the national capacity for electricity generation for vast numbers of EV will be an issue - a street with every house having EV's will need an uplift in the capacity of the local electricity infrastructure.

It's worth noting that. the rush to build massive numbers of EV is questionable because according to very detailed research by Volvo, the environmental tag for EV manufacture is so much higher that it is not repaid until the vehicle has done an extra 100,000 km than an ICE vehicle.

Further problems of excess weight overloading multi story parks, (a collapse in New York), expensive battery replacement and lower second hand values, should not be ignored by purchasers. Also I read recently that some Insurer's were increasing premiums and even refusing cover for EV's because of the high repair costs, including batteries. Noting that EV are at a problem at repair yards, because, if the battery pack has been 'compromised' at all, the risk of a battery fire is much higher - recommendations to store damaged EV very widely spaced makes repair costs very high. it's also worth bearing in mind that a battery pack might be damaged by hitting a hump in the road, mounting a kerb and so on. MMMmmm

 

Regarding the mooted hazard of spontaneous combustion, it does seem that EV are much less likely to catch fire than ICE, BUT, the problem is that an EV fire is wildly intense and there are many cases of EV catching fire, on charge, off charge, whenever. yes that's WILDLY intense. I saw the suggestion that multi-story car parks should be installed with sprinklers. That's a crazy sop to the problem - sprinklers won't impact on the ferocity of an EV fire. Even fully equipped fire services can't put them out - it's a wait for burnout.

 

One can read of cases where the EV fire results in the house burning down too. Apparently a complete Tesla dealership in France was fire wiped ! And a fire in a car park in Glasgow and of course, the terrible fire at Luton Airport - of course the PR machines will play down the EV factor but I saw a plausible theory that the diesel Range Rover identified as catching fire first, was probably a hybrid version. Whatever started it, reports that as the fire spread, EV's were bursting into flames creating a domino effect. At Luton, it's thought that 1200 vehicles were destroyed - what's that gonna do for premiums . . . ?

 

However, IF you discount all the above, then here's another problem - maybe you'll be OK if you can charge at home but if you want to do long journeys, allow ages of extra time for recharging AND waiting for access to recharging. Noting there's some long journeys in Thailand - (say Hua Hin to Chaing Mai) MMmmm. As the proportion of EV increases this problem will get much worse and I notice these comments from the UK recently - "Britain’s biggest motorway service station provider has brought in marshals to police “charge rage” among electric vehicle drivers battling for access to plug-in points. Moto chief executive Ken McMeikan warned the UK’s motorway service stations are facing growing “public disorder” due to a lack of grid connections preventing him from installing enough car chargers to meet the surge in demand. It means many motorists are facing long waits, with angry drivers confronting staff and each other over the lack of charging facilities."

 

EV's have some advantages and some do look good - but I think you can guess that I won't be buying one. Not in this lifetime ! ATB

[JBChiangRai]

Very balanced opinion - NOT

[In the jungle]

I gather you are not a fan of EVs.

 

 

[Eff1n2ret]

I'm not sure that there is a "rush" to EV's in Thailand. On my middle-class moo ban of approaching 200 houses I see about 6 or 7 EVs buzzing round which have all appeared in the last year or so. If I changed my car I would seriously think about a small EV but as long as my 3-litre turbodiesel is performing well I can't justify the change financially, even though I have a 3kw solar system on the roof, because we do relatively little mileage these days.

I recently watched a video of a chap driving from Greater Manchester to the South Coast in an EV, and he had a really frustrating time finding somewhere to get a charge. It's clear that in the UK the infrastructure and capacity are inadequate. What would be adequate in a populous country like Thailand is anybody's guess. Simple maths suggests that if all cars were electric and it takes at least 30 minutes to get a recharge as opposed to 5 mins for a fuel refill, then in busy places such as motorways and main roads then 6 times the number of charging points as opposed to fuel pumps would be required.

My mind started to boggle the other day as I tried to follow one of these threads about registering on all the apps and booking at charging points in Thailand and the charge cutting off after 50-minutes. Perhaps it was poorly explained, but it seemed quite complicated, and I can't imagine the average Thai driver wanting to bother very much. I don't think I do either.

[McTavish]

1 hour ago, TorquayFan said:

It's becoming increasingly obvious that a widespread rush to EV may be problematic - Thailand (and all Nations), need to find the right role for them.

 

The use of EV in big Cities obviously makes some sense, reducing pollution, in say BKK and Chiang Mai and although EV cause extra pollution in the area the vehicle is manufactured in, it still makes some sense . . . . . though, how do persons living in an apartment block or in a house with no driveway/carport/garage, manage to get the charge supply to the vehicle. Further, the national capacity for electricity generation for vast numbers of EV will be an issue - a street with every house having EV's will need an uplift in the capacity of the local electricity infrastructure.

It's worth noting that. the rush to build massive numbers of EV is questionable because according to very detailed research by Volvo, the environmental tag for EV manufacture is so much higher that it is not repaid until the vehicle has done an extra 100,000 km than an ICE vehicle.

Further problems of excess weight overloading multi story parks, (a collapse in New York), expensive battery replacement and lower second hand values, should not be ignored by purchasers. Also I read recently that some Insurer's were increasing premiums and even refusing cover for EV's because of the high repair costs, including batteries. Noting that EV are at a problem at repair yards, because, if the battery pack has been 'compromised' at all, the risk of a battery fire is much higher - recommendations to store damaged EV very widely spaced makes repair costs very high. it's also worth bearing in mind that a battery pack might be damaged by hitting a hump in the road, mounting a kerb and so on. MMMmmm

 

Regarding the mooted hazard of spontaneous combustion, it does seem that EV are much less likely to catch fire than ICE, BUT, the problem is that an EV fire is wildly intense and there are many cases of EV catching fire, on charge, off charge, whenever. yes that's WILDLY intense. I saw the suggestion that multi-story car parks should be installed with sprinklers. That's a crazy sop to the problem - sprinklers won't impact on the ferocity of an EV fire. Even fully equipped fire services can't put them out - it's a wait for burnout.

 

One can read of cases where the EV fire results in the house burning down too. Apparently a complete Tesla dealership in France was fire wiped ! And a fire in a car park in Glasgow and of course, the terrible fire at Luton Airport - of course the PR machines will play down the EV factor but I saw a plausible theory that the diesel Range Rover identified as catching fire first, was probably a hybrid version. Whatever started it, reports that as the fire spread, EV's were bursting into flames creating a domino effect. At Luton, it's thought that 1200 vehicles were destroyed - what's that gonna do for premiums . . . ?

 

However, IF you discount all the above, then here's another problem - maybe you'll be OK if you can charge at home but if you want to do long journeys, allow ages of extra time for recharging AND waiting for access to recharging. Noting there's some long journeys in Thailand - (say Hua Hin to Chaing Mai) MMmmm. As the proportion of EV increases this problem will get much worse and I notice these comments from the UK recently - "Britain’s biggest motorway service station provider has brought in marshals to police “charge rage” among electric vehicle drivers battling for access to plug-in points. Moto chief executive Ken McMeikan warned the UK’s motorway service stations are facing growing “public disorder” due to a lack of grid connections preventing him from installing enough car chargers to meet the surge in demand. It means many motorists are facing long waits, with angry drivers confronting staff and each other over the lack of charging facilities."

 

EV's have some advantages and some do look good - but I think you can guess that I won't be buying one. Not in this lifetime ! ATB

Spot on commentary, well said.  Governments are pushing too hard with EV uptake with little thought toward safety and infrastructure.  Crazy thing is we'd save the planet much faster by installing roof top solar, allow EV's to evolve more slowly.

[Digitalbanana]

1 hour ago, TorquayFan said:

marshals to police “charge rage”

Lol, range anxiety leading to charge rage. Who'd have thunk it. Back to my gas guzzling SUV to head off on a 900km drive with the family, piss stops all coordinated to maximum efficiency, no need to worry about ordering a vacant fuel pump the night before.

[KhunLA]

Anything is better than more ICEVs, especially diesel.

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

It's becoming increasingly obvious that a widespread rush to EV may be problematic - Thailand (and all Nations), need to find the right role for them.

TH found the right role for them.  People simply need to accept it, adapt, and deal with it.  With any luck, we'll get some savvy politicians, encouraging (incentives) for everyone to put solar panels on their roofs.

 

Long overdue in any tropical country.  The uncommon common sense ????

[JBChiangRai]

Funny how nobody with an EV seems to agree with the OP

 

it must be nice to be blissfully ignorant

[Tropicalevo]

Quote

Thailand needs to calm down it's rush to EV

I think that is it is more a political decision - big uncle Xi?

From what I read, most EV's in Thailand are Chinese and they are building factories/assembly plants for them.

 

[Negita43]

3 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

EV's have some advantages and some do look good - but I think you can guess that I won't be buying one. Not in this lifetime ! ATB

I have a question about EVs - most of the diagramatic pictures I see show the battery pack at floor level. With Thailand having a great propensity to flood might that be an issue?

[JBChiangRai]

20 minutes ago, Negita43 said:

I have a question about EVs - most of the diagramatic pictures I see show the battery pack at floor level. With Thailand having a great propensity to flood might that be an issue?

Batteries are waterproof, you can drive through a flood, but I wouldn’t recommend leaving it parked in one

[Negita43]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Batteries are waterproof, you can drive through a flood, but I wouldn’t recommend leaving it parked in one

Thanks for the info

But what about where they connect to the motor? I assume they have a + and a - terminal with leads out to the electric motor????

[JBChiangRai]

10 minutes ago, Negita43 said:

Thanks for the info

But what about where they connect to the motor? I assume they have a + and a - terminal with leads out to the electric motor????

The motors run on 3 phase AC so a lot more than 2 terminals, but all fully sealed.

[josephbloggs]

55 minutes ago, Negita43 said:

I have a question about EVs - most of the diagramatic pictures I see show the battery pack at floor level. With Thailand having a great propensity to flood might that be an issue?

Do you not think they might have thought of that? Or do people really believe they make these things with exposed batteries such that a puddle will kill them?

 

I don't own an EV by the way before I get called a member of the EV brigade or cult.

Edited October 14, 2023 by josephbloggs

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, Tropicalevo said:

I think that is it is more a political decision - big uncle Xi?

From what I read, most EV's in Thailand are Chinese and they are building factories/assembly plants for them.

 

Most are Chinese, yes. This is because the Chinese are years ahead of legacy manufacturers and are making more advanced, better, and cheaper EVs. European andJapanese marques are not in the same league, so of course we see more Chinese vehicles. Nothing to do with "Uncle Xi", just pure market demand.

[TorquayFan]

Thanks for replies all.

 

JB - so NOT a balanced opinion. In what way Sir? Any examples? Any contrary facts? Or your head in the sand?

 

Actually, there was almost NO opinion in there - just what I have read about and seen!

 

No Jungle I'm not a Fan because of what I read and see.

 

Eff1n - OK but I think it's a rush here and for example - the UK too.

 

Khun LA - I disagree . . .

 

JB again - ah, but just wait until those EV are older - Folks won't be so chuffed with them then . . .

 

Tropical - yes China have the bulk of the minerals needed for EV and will exploit that to the full.

 

Negita - any immersion in water can cause problems weeks later as I read it.

 

JB again again - good advice this time.

 

Jo Bloggs - I venture that they are still finding out and I love your faith that 'they' have thought of everything.

 

ATB

[billd766]

4 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Very balanced opinion - NOT

It doesn't have to be balanced. It is his opinion, in the same way your comment is your opinion.

 

If you disagree with his opinion, then refute it and explain your side of the argument.

 

IMO I agree with his especially as I live in rural Thailand where we get brown outs quite often lasting from a few seconds to several hours,

 

Also the nearest public EV charging points to me are 65 km away.

 

For me to have an EV would mean upgrading my electricity supply and meter and building a new parking area away from the house, and installing some sort of fire suppression system, perhaps dry powder or Co2.

 

The nearest main dealers are also some 65 km away for servicing and spare parts. 

 

 

 

[motdaeng]

8 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

If you disagree with his opinion, then refute it and explain your side of the argument.

IMO I agree with his especially as I live in rural Thailand where we get brown outs quite often lasting from a few seconds to several hours,

Also the nearest public EV charging points to me are 65 km away.

For me to have an EV would mean upgrading my electricity supply and meter and building a new parking area away from the house, and installing some sort of fire suppression system, perhaps dry powder or Co2.

The nearest main dealers are also some 65 km away for servicing and spare parts. 

some experienced electric vehicle owners have already explained to you several times that there's hardly

a reason for a homeowner in a rural (as you described yourself) area not to own an ev.

 

listing some of the negative points, as you did, makes you appear rather ludicrous. it also indicates that you

haven't approached electromobility in a serious manner ...

 

but ev cars aren't for everyone! and certainly not for people who aren't open to receiving arguments

from experienced ev users ...

[Ben Zioner]

Just  wait  another 3  to 5 years...   EVs will be the perfect second car for shorter trips, under 150 to 200  ks. Save and  keep your SUVs for holidays.

[TorquayFan]

Motdaeng - you say "there's hardly a reason for a homeowner in a rural (as you described yourself) area not to own an ev." Really ?

 

I certainly didn't get that impression from the posts I've read. I think we are all "open to receiving arguments

from experienced ev users" but I've not noticed many here so far.

 

In passing I wonder how "experienced ev users" will feel when their batteries fail at 8 years + and it costs THB 100K minimum to replace them or when their insurance premiums go up, which can't be long . . .

 

Ben I agree EV may be suitable as 2nd car runarounds but in 3-5 years time, the batteries in 2nd hand vehicles will be getting old. Oh, and the 'range' such as it is, starts to fall at that stage, (as it does with the a/c on).

 

 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

It doesn't have to be balanced. It is his opinion, in the same way your comment is your opinion.

 

If you disagree with his opinion, then refute it and explain your side of the argument.

 

IMO I agree with his especially as I live in rural Thailand where we get brown outs quite often lasting from a few seconds to several hours,

 

Also the nearest public EV charging points to me are 65 km away.

 

For me to have an EV would mean upgrading my electricity supply and meter and building a new parking area away from the house, and installing some sort of fire suppression system, perhaps dry powder or Co2.

 

The nearest main dealers are also some 65 km away for servicing and spare parts. 

 

 

 

Every point in the OP has beed addresses at least more than once.

 

So has the issue of fires you raised, that’s been addressed to you on multiple occasions.

 

So has your living 65km away from a charging station, you’ve already been told you don’t need any within 150km and why.

 

You don’t need to upgrade your meter, you can even charge on a 5/15A meter, overnight will replace most if not all your use the day before.  I myself charge overnight at 10amp when needed, my PEA supply is very weak.

 

I am not going to play this game of repeating answers to the same old Luddites who regurgitate the same old ill informed points.

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

I wonder how "experienced ev users" will feel when their batteries fail at 8 years + and it costs THB 100K minimum to replace them or when their insurance premiums go up, which can't be long . . .

 

Ben I agree EV may be suitable as 2nd car runarounds but in 3-5 years time, the batteries in 2nd hand vehicles will be getting old. Oh, and the 'range' such as it is, starts to fall at that stage, (as it does with the a/c on).

 

 

 

 

Battery longevity has already been addressed elsewhere, many times. As I’m sure you’re aware if you have a really read all the EV posts.

 

I’m not going to repeat them again, go and read the other threads, you’re just rehashing old posts.

[KhunLA]

16 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Battery longevity has already been addressed elsewhere, many times. As I’m sure you’re aware if you have a really read all the EV posts.

 

I’m not going to repeat them again, go and read the other threads, you’re just rehashing old posts.

Yep, nothing but 'broken record syndrome' from the anti EV/CH folks.  

 

Are EVs for everyone, not yet.  Will there be continual issues with the developing perfection of the tech, of course.

 

At present, there IS something for everyone, in every price range, especially in TH.  

 

I stop refuting their silliness, and simply ignore them.  Use the laughing emoji.

Edited October 15, 2023 by KhunLA

[Lacessit]

EV's make sense in terms of reducing air pollution and noise in congested cities.

They also make sense in terms of running costs for owners, although the increased capital cost offsets that somewhat.

Authorities and insurance companies are still grappling with how to ensure an EV battery fire does not have catastrophic consequences.

As the world still relies on fossil fuels for 70% of electricity generation, EV's do not yet make sense in terms of reducing carbon dioxide emissions. That particular form of pollution is simply transferred to the power station.

Ev's are highly polluting w.r.to the raw materials they are made from, and battery disposal.

They are also causing more wear for roads, being about 600 kg heavier than a corresponding ICE.

[DonniePeverley]

One of the most ridiculous nonsensical posts i've read on here.

 

Have you seen the pollution on Bangkok roads? Try walking on pavements taking in the whaff of exhaust fumes. 

 

The more of the population that transitions to electric vehicles the better it is. Most condos have the charging set up. 

[Lacessit]

12 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Yep, nothing but 'broken record syndrome' from the anti EV/CH folks.  

 

Are EVs for everyone, not yet.  Will there be continual issues with the developing perfection of the tech, of course.

 

At present, there IS something for everyone, in every price range, especially in TH.  

 

I stop refuting their silliness, and simply ignore them.  Use the laughing emoji.

If the best you can do to refute posted facts is to use a laughing emoji, IMO that's just childish.

[JBChiangRai]

9 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

If the best you can do to refute posted facts is to use a laughing emoji, IMO that's just childish.

Everything already addressed including your points…many times

[motdaeng]

14 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

EV's make sense in terms of reducing air pollution and noise in congested cities.

They also make sense in terms of running costs for owners, although the increased capital cost offsets that somewhat.

Authorities and insurance companies are still grappling with how to ensure an EV battery fire does not have catastrophic consequences.

As the world still relies on fossil fuels for 70% of electricity generation, EV's do not yet make sense in terms of reducing carbon dioxide emissions. That particular form of pollution is simply transferred to the power station.

Ev's are highly polluting w.r.to the raw materials they are made from, and battery disposal.

They are also causing more wear for roads, being about 600 kg heavier than a corresponding ICE.

every new development or innovation also brings negative side effects. mass production of electric cars has barely

been around for 10 years, and in another 10 years, electromobility will have further evolved because the potential is

just started to kick in ...

 

perhaps in 20 years, there will be better alternatives to electric cars, who knows. but internal combustion engines (ICE)

have no potential anymore and can hardly be the future solution.

 

we all should know, pollution and noise make people sick (or dying) ... if you live in a bigger city (eg. chiang mai etc) you know what i mean ..

[KhunLA]

20 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

If the best you can do to refute posted facts is to use a laughing emoji, IMO that's just childish.

When they fall under the 'broken record' scenario, sorry, that's the best they deserve.

 

When they post on the 'EVs in TH' thread with all the negatives of owning an EV in the UK, then yea, they are laughable.

 

When they post repetitive vids from anti EV/CH haters, that are just plain false info or fake stories, yea, I chuckle at their silliness.

 

Read one the other day, Luptin parking garage fire, implying caused by EV, with nothing in the story suggesting.  Even fire marshal stated suspected from a diesel vehicle.   Then at end of post adds, wait to more info .... after stating, probably yet another EV fire.

 

Then when shown it was an ICEV, posts, then it probably ignited an EV, causing more damage.

 

All laughable.

 

How many times can you tell an idiot about battery longevity, LFP safety, priced the same, perform better, CH is not the anti Christ?

Edited October 15, 2023 by KhunLA