Thailand needs to calm down it's rush to EV !

[Bandersnatch]

15 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

It's worth noting that. the rush to build massive numbers of EV is questionable because according to very detailed research by Volvo, the environmental tag for EV manufacture is so much higher that it is not repaid until the vehicle has done an extra 100,000 km than an ICE vehicle

You clearly don’t know how to read a graph!

 

 

The calculus used by Volvo says the results depend in large measure on the source of electricity its customers use to charge their vehicles and the 2 year old report said that the grid is greening all the time, so it’s findings are already out of date. 

 

In my case I drive my EVs using excess power produced from my home solar. Many EV owners here in Thailand have solar.

 

The report said that internal combustion technology has had over a century to get where it is today. EV technology, on the other hand, is still in its infancy. Improvements in battery technology are happening almost daily. Battery recycling operations are ramping up around the world, which will significantly reduce the need to mine lithium and other natural resources, like nickel and cobalt, that are used to make today’s lithium-ion batteries.

 

The report is not without it’s critics, It claims part of the reason its electric cars create more emissions in the production phase is because they use more aluminum, yet the charts that accompany the report show the gasoline-powered XC40 has an aluminum content of 34%, while the XC40 Recharge uses 30% aluminum and the C40 Recharge 29%.

 

 

[TorquayFan]

Laccesit and Donnie - the point you make is the first I myself EMPHASISED in my opener - "The use of EV in big Cities obviously makes some sense, reducing pollution, in say BKK and Chiang Mai and although EV cause extra pollution in the area the vehicle is manufactured in, it still makes some sense."

 

Battery life - I see Tesla and Nissan guarantee 100K miles - so my own brilliant diesel Toyota would be approaching it's 3rd battery set now ! Wide experience with EV is just a few years old. Let's see how people feel in 5 years time . . .

 

Weight on the roads - yes another significant problem - heads into the sand again you EV fans !

 

Khun LA - you seem very defensive - are you secretly concerned about your EV decision? And the Luton fire was not laughable with 1200 vehicles damaged and it's a miracle no lives were lost. IMO as yet there is no authoritative data as the cause.

 

Here's more to cheer you up - "John Lewis has stopped offering insurance to electric car drivers amid fears over the cost of repairs. The department store’s lending business John Lewis Financial Services has put a temporary pause on customers taking out cover or renewing existing policies on battery-power vehicles while its underwriter, Covéa, analyses risks and costs. Insurers are facing rising costs for vehicle repairs, which are eating into profits. According to the Association of British Insurers (ABI), vehicle repair costs rose 33pc over the first quarter of 2023 compared to 2022, helping to push annual premiums to record highs . . . . . . . . The battery is also generally the most expensive part of an electric car and can account for as much as 50pc of the vehicle’s value, costing between £14,200 and £29,500. " https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/bills/insurance/john-lewis-stops-insuring-electric-cars/

 

And "David was shocked when the insurance on his Tesla Model Y came up for renewal, and Aviva refused to cover him again, while several other brands turned him away. When David did secure a new deal, the annual cost rocketed from £1,200 to more than £5,000.

“My insurer was Aviva from July 2022 to July 2023, but when it was coming up for renewal, I received a letter stating that they would not be covering the Tesla Model Y any more,” David says. “I am a member of a Tesla UK owners forum, and lots of other people seem to be having the same issue.” In the Facebook group, members share stories of horror renewal quotes, with increases ranging from 60% (up to £1,100) to a staggering 940% (a jump from £447 to £4,661, according to a screengrab shared by one driver)." https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/quotes-were-5-000-more-090011337.html

 

Good luck with it Guys. Anyone lusting for a pretty EV I'd say - 'think it through'. ATB

[TorquayFan]

Bandersnatch - the point you make about solar charging for EV is a good one - a neat solution. However some have no possibility of a solar solution, e.g. when living in apartments. And some may be unable to afford that solar installation. Surely,  if EV were 50% of the total rather than 5% (?), that would that also be a significant loss of feedback of solar power to the grid?

 

I understood that the battery pack was the significant factor in increasing the environmental costs of the EV.

[Pogust]

Facts from people who really knows the limits to EVs.

 

<iframe width="806" height="453" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5stPFdegJpg" title="Electric Vehicles: Arthur Berman, Pedro Prieto, &amp; Simon Michaux | Reality Roundtable #1" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Pogust]

 

[Bandersnatch]

16 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

how do persons living in an apartment block or in a house with no driveway/carport/garage, manage to get the charge supply to the vehicle

These problems are being solved all around the world. In Norway 80% of new cars purchased last year were electric. You would know this if you had bothered to do some research before giving the rest of us the job of fact checking everything you say.

 

 

 

[TorquayFan]

Thanks Pogust - that looks worth a watch. ATB

[Bandersnatch]

16 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

Further, the national capacity for electricity generation for vast numbers of EV will be an issue

In Thailand peak demand for electricity is during the day. There is excess supply at night that is why Thailand has cheap TOU rates overnight when most people without solar will charge.

 

[TorquayFan]

Bandersnatch - Ouch !

 

Yes I knew about Norway - of course, it's a very small and very prosperous Country and they seem well organised too. Further helped by this factor - "battery-electric vehicles were also exempted from value-added and import taxes, which are traditionally high on cars in Norway."

 

Now I'm trying to watch the Pogust link. ATB

[Bandersnatch]

16 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

a street with every house having EV's will need an uplift in the capacity of the local electricity infrastructure.

Currently Thailand’s feed-in credit for solar is a flat rate and not time (demand based) When PEA and MEA get serious about this problem they will call on prosumers like myself.

 

I have 36 kWh of home batteries and a new EV with 82.5 kWh and bi-directional charging. I would be happy to feedback to my local grid here in Thailand if there were incentives to do so. This is already happening around the world.

 

 

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

16 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

Further problems of excess weight overloading multi story parks

My new EV is a saloon (sedan) and weighs less than the average pickup that most people seem to drive here. If you were serious about car park problems you would also call to ban pickup trucks - good luck with that.

 

 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

 

How many times can you tell an idiot about battery longevity, LFP safety, priced the same, perform better, CH is not the anti Christ?

About as many times as you can tell an idiot EV's have become a religion for some owners, and virtue signalling they are saving the planet is complete BS.

 

Priced the same? Only with government subsidies, which are as changeable as weathervanes.

 

Show me an EV equivalent in performance and price to an ICE such as a Mitsubishi Attrage or Nissan Almera, please.

[Bandersnatch]

16 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

it's also worth bearing in mind that a battery pack might be damaged by hitting a hump in the road, mounting a kerb and so on. MMMmmm

“Hitting a bump in the road” What a ridiculous thing to say.  Here is a video of my EV being crash tested (twice) and the battery being tested afterwards.

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

19 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

About as many times as you can tell an idiot EV's have become a religion for some owners, and virtue signalling they are saving the planet is complete BS.

 

Priced the same? Only with government subsidies, which are as changeable as weathervanes.

 

Show me an EV equivalent in performance and price to an ICE such as a Mitsubishi Attrage or Nissan Almera, please.

There you go, again repeating the same silliness.  No EV owners on AN ever stated they are saving the planet.   Not contributing to local air pollution, yes.

 

We've enjoying savings & performance, that's all.  But please continue the false narrative that we think we are saving the planet.

 

They are priced the same, if same class of cars, not the made in TH entry level JP badged crap.  But the imports of same (under performing) quality JP brands, and without the incentives

[retarius]

I'll stick to ICEs thanks, until they sort the fire problem, the range problem, the price problem,  and the crap problem out of EVs. I read it costs 40% less labour to build an EV......no wonder the car companies want to sell them to us.

[Bandersnatch]

16 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

that the diesel Range Rover identified as catching fire first, was probably a hybrid version. 

No evidence for that (again)

 

 

Thanks to @Georgealbert for the link https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/london-luton-airport-car-park-fire

 

Thanks 

 

 

[KhunLA]

Yet to hear 1 argument against owning an EV, that makes sense, that owners of don't agree with already.

 

Common sense reason not to own EV (in TH):

... can't charge at home

... can't afford a new car right now

... want a pick up truck

... on the road all the time, and waiting to charge, will cost you valuable money making time

... simply too impatient to charge when on the road, (not working) but don't mind waiting weekly to top up ICEV at petrol station

 

I can't think of any other reasons, and most have been debunked already.

[Bandersnatch]

16 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

the problem is that an EV fire is wildly intense and there are many cases of EV catching fire, on charge, off charge, whenever

If you actually knew anything about EVs you would know that battery chemistry is changing. The 2 biggest EV manufactures are BYD - 100% lithium iron phosphate batteries (LFP) - and Tesla whose best selling models by far are the standard range model 3 & Y  that now mostly use lithium iron phosphate (LFP). Ford has also moved to LFP. LFP are far safer than Li Ion

 

My home batteries and new EV have LFP

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

17 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

then here's another problem - maybe you'll be OK if you can charge at home but if you want to do long journeys, allow ages of extra time for recharging AND waiting for access to recharging. Noting there's some long journeys in Thailand - (say Hua Hin to Chaing Mai) MMmmm.

A guy who doesn’t own an EV telling those of us who do that there are no EV chargers in Thailand.

 

If you look closely at the map you will even see my house listed as a charging station.

 

 

[KhunLA]

7 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

My home batteries and new EV have LFP

As do mine, (EV & solar ESSs) and anyone research to buy, will know this, and should chose accordingly.  Soon all will be LFP, as other transition over.

 

Anything in the future will be better, cleaner & safer, hopefully.

 

Myself, too impatient (& old) to wait, and miss out on savings & performance now.

 

Have MG ZS (2022) and fit our needs & transport budget perfectly.  Probably last car wife & myself will own, unless simply wanting to upgrade to something, new, shiny & improved (doubtful) in the future.

[JBChiangRai]

I think this whole thread is either clickbait or one of our regular anti-EV’ers attempting to troll us.

[TorquayFan]

JB that's rubbish . . . .

[Negita43]

13 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

The motors run on 3 phase AC so a lot more than 2 terminals, but all fully sealed.

Thanks again - as I am sure you will have realised by now I am a complete novice on the subject of EVs

[Negita43]

13 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

Do you not think they might have thought of that? Or do people really believe they make these things with exposed batteries such that a puddle will kill them?

The world is full of people who let others do the "thinking" for them and look where that's getting us.

 

 

[Gweiloman]

To the OP, TorquayFan, if you don’t want to buy an EV, then don’t. No one is holding a gun to your head. Your opening post shows very clearly your lack of knowledge about EVs and experiences of owning one. You based it on what you have read.

 

Try reading articles or watching videos from EV owners if you want to have a balanced view.

[TorquayFan]

Bandersnatch - "A guy who doesn’t own an EV telling those of us who do that there are no EV chargers in Thailand."

 

I did NOT say that . . . read back . . .

 

. . and THIS is what I said about the Luton fire - "I saw a plausible theory that the diesel Range Rover identified as catching fire first, was probably a hybrid version."

 

Yes I saw that on a YouTube, watching carefully, the origin of the fire seemed to be coming from the area behind the front wheel on the left side which is where the hybrid battery is. The EV aspect is being played down widely but we don't know yet - however, it's 'a plausible theory'.

 

Khun LA - yes there is agreement with proEV and EV skeptics about the obvious points. And you observe, the EV is right for you and that's great - it does make sense in many cases.

 

But the main idea in my thread was about Countries pushing EV policy and I have acknowledged that for some, an EV is bang on ! If some want to choose EV that's fine.

 

 

 

[TorquayFan]

Gweilo I've watched many videos and read a lot on both sides of the debate and reached this balanced view.

 

Which brings me to an EV problem not mentioned yet - tyre wear particle dust IS a major pollutant on the roads and ends up in the water system. Because of the excess weight of EV, tyre wear is much higher.

 

In the UK apparently MOT fails due to tyres are 30% higher on EV's.

 

Khun LA - yes it's easy to agree about the obvious advantages of EV and the drawbacks too. You have an EV and it suits you and that's great - my main concern is industry led or Govt. thrusts to change to EV's wholesale because it won't solve the wider issues.

 

Thanks Pogust for that link - worth the watch

 

BFN and ATB

[Jimjim1]

2 hours ago, motdaeng said:

internal combustion engines (ICE)

have no potential anymore and can hardly be the future solution.

Funny thing is this was stated when the first petrol engine was produced over a hundred years ago with only one difference ( the word anymore )

 

The worst polluters of the world are industrialists yet no one is complaining or pointing the finger at them, yes cars do pollute and no one refutes it but beef producers pollute more than cars as cattle fart methane gas in a constant stream, shipping produces about 25% + of all unregulated pollutants, industrialists with there manufacturing processes contribute around 50%, not to mention PEOPLE, but it is much easier to attack the easy target than getting to the Cruz of the matter.

 

And before anyone gets on there high horse at me, yes I do have a car used mainly to move my disabled wife to where she needs to go and year on year I average 3 to 5,000 miles.

[Ben Zioner]

Slightly off topic, but I always wonder why some people are so passionately anti-EV. Is it sheer nostalgia? Fond memories of the  noise and smoke maker inside which they lost their virginity? 

 

What strikes me is that the  ICE is an engineering aberration due to the need to convert the  back and forth movement of the piston,  caused  by and inefficient thermal reaction, into a rotation action. In and electric motor all parts rotates and there is little lost in heat.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

There you go, again repeating the same silliness.  No EV owners on AN ever stated they are saving the planet.   Not contributing to local air pollution, yes.

 

We've enjoying savings & performance, that's all.  But please continue the false narrative that we think we are saving the planet.

 

They are priced the same, if same class of cars, not the made in TH entry level JP badged crap.  But the imports of same (under performing) quality JP brands, and without the incentives

Maybe not on AN, plenty out there otherwise.

 

How about posting some facts on price and performance? All you are doing is begging the question when you make the statement "they are priced the same", then attempt to deflect my question by going off on a tangent about place of manufacture.

 

Let me help you out. A small Ora Good Cat has a starting price of 840,000 baht. A Nissan Micra or March is less than 500,000 baht.

 

Now kindly stop posting complete nonsense.