Analysis The Gaza diplomacy of Biden, Sunak and co seems to be heading for failure

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. It was never israel's to "give" them. The israelis illegally occupied it till they were "persuaded" to leave.

If you are going to comment, try and get it right.

Yeah, because you really really care about getting the facts right, ain't ya?

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, xylophone said:

My pleasure, but the link contains information that I would suggest many are not aware of.........or indeed do not want to know about!

Such links are posted on these topics all the time. Doubt people actually read them anyway. People don't usually participate in these topics in order to 'educate' themselves, get a better grasp of events and so on.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

Hamas did not build desalination plants to irrigate the country

LOL.

 

The UN certainly thinks Gaza has desalination plants. They have 3, which you'd know if you had googled

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/18/middleeast/gaza-water-access-supply-mapped-dg/index.html

The last functioning desalination plant shut down on Sunday due to lack of fuel, as did the last functioning wastewater treatment plant, the UN reported.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, newbee2022 said:

The Hamas charter is not speaking for Palestine but only a few thousands people.

And one of those good examples of working countries is our neighbour, Malaysia.

Let's not get too carried away. Malaysia is quite tolerant but still discriminates against non-Muslims. For example, , it's very difficult to convert  from Islam to another religion. 

"Muslims who seek to convert to another religion must first obtain approval from a sharia court to declare them as “apostates.” Sharia courts seldom grant such requests, especially for those born Muslim and ethnic Malays, and are reluctant to allow conversion for those who had previously converted to Islam."

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/malaysia/#:~:text=Muslims who seek to convert,had previously converted to Islam.

The report goes on to note that in some states, apostasy is punishable by fines and prison sentences. One of them also adds the penalty of caning. In 2 states the maximum sentence is death although it has never actually been imposed and its legality is uncertain. 

[xylophone]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

Such links are posted on these topics all the time. Doubt people actually read them anyway. People don't usually participate in these topics in order to 'educate' themselves, get a better grasp of events and so on.

History is almost always worth knowing, esp if it give a background to current events.

 

Over and out on this thread.

[transam]

9 minutes ago, xylophone said:

My pleasure, but the link contains information that I would suggest many are not aware of.........or indeed do not want to know about!

 

Anyway enough of my comments on this thread because like others of this ilk, it will go nowhere and if generation upon generation of well-meaning countries/people/governments have tried to solve it, and failed, then it won't be solved here, so therefore most posts will be meaningless.

 

You assume too much........😉

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

I disagree, your head is firmly in the sand, in your initial post you certainly did NOT condemn Hamas but you did talk about the possible war crimes by Israel. Now wind back and see exactly why Israel is responding like this. Its not because of the rockets as you claimed. Its because over 1,400 innocent lives of civilians were slaughtered by ISIS style Terrorists. Many tortured, raped and even beheaded. A direct targeting of defenseless civilians and the abduction of over 200 more still in captivity. Those are the war crimes that started this. 

 

Israel is ensuring this never happens again.

Good luck with that.

[transam]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Let's not get too carried away. Malaysia is quite tolerant but still discriminates against non-Muslims. For example, , it's very difficult to convert  from Islam to another religion. 

"Muslims who seek to convert to another religion must first obtain approval from a sharia court to declare them as “apostates.” Sharia courts seldom grant such requests, especially for those born Muslim and ethnic Malays, and are reluctant to allow conversion for those who had previously converted to Islam."

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/malaysia/#:~:text=Muslims who seek to convert,had previously converted to Islam.

The report goes on to note that in some states, apostasy is punishable by fines and prison sentences. One of them also adds the penalty of caning. In 2 states the maximum sentence is death although it has never actually been imposed and its legality is uncertain. 

Waaaaaaaaaaay off topic...........

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

Hamas did not build desalination plants to irrigate the country or electrical power plants to light it,

LOL. Le Monde certainly claims Gaza has a power station.

 

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/10/11/gaza-power-authority-warns-that-electricity-will-run-out-within-hours_6164059_4.html#

The only power plant in the Gaza Strip, which is under Israeli bombardment and siege, shut down Wednesday, October 11, after it ran out of fuel, said the Palestinian enclave's electricity authority.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Good luck with that.

Good luck with this you mean? "Israel is ensuring this never happens again."

 

Yep I certainly hope  that's the case for them

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL.

 

The UN certainly thinks Gaza has desalination plants. They have 3, which you'd know if you had googled

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/18/middleeast/gaza-water-access-supply-mapped-dg/index.html

The last functioning desalination plant shut down on Sunday due to lack of fuel, as did the last functioning wastewater treatment plant, the UN reported.

 

Built by Hamas? Sponsored by Hamas?

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, xylophone said:

History is almost always worth knowing, esp if it give a background to current events.

 

Over and out on this thread.

This is a current news forum. This is a current topic. Doubt the Crusades are needed as context.

What happens more often than not when historical references are brought in is that the topic gets derailed, devolving into further arguments about side issues. Context is great, but time and place etc.

[placeholder]

Just now, Morch said:

This is a current news forum. This is a current topic. Doubt the Crusades are needed as context.

What happens more often than not when historical references are brought in is that the topic gets derailed, devolving into further arguments about side issues. Context is great, but time and place etc.

You're right of course. The thing is we have many members here who assert that Islam is inherently intolerant when history shows that's clearly not the case.

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post contravening our Community Standards has been removed.

[Nick Carter icp]

54 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Many thanks for this @Nick Carter icp as it gives the background to this mess; and for those who continue to post that, "there was no such place as Palestine in years gone by" then I suggest they read up on the history of the region from the link provided by you. 

The claim is that there was no Country called Palestine with recognised borders and a head of state , there was just an area called Palestine without defined borders and a recognised leader 

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You're right of course. The thing is we have many members here who assert that Islam is inherently intolerant when history shows that's clearly not the case.

See the part of my comment about starting arguments about side issues....

Edited October 23, 2023 by Morch

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

See the part of my comment about starting arguments about side issues....

Well, it's not a side issue if someone asserts that it's the cause behind the current situation.

[Morch]

Just now, placeholder said:

Well, it's not a side issue if someone asserts that it's the cause behind the current situation.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1309894-the-gaza-diplomacy-of-biden-sunak-and-co-seems-to-be-heading-for-failure/page/4/#comment-18442496

 

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

https://aseannow.com/topic/1309894-the-gaza-diplomacy-of-biden-sunak-and-co-seems-to-be-heading-for-failure/page/4/#comment-18442496

 

Funny but irrelevant.

[mrmicbkktxl]

15 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. It was never israel's to "give" them. The israelis illegally occupied it till they were "persuaded" to leave.

If you are going to comment, try and get it right.

If you have no idea what you talking about then how about just...................... 

6 days war?????Before Israel the Egypts occupied the strip.In the 6 days war Israel crushed them all,and of course Israel stayed.The winner of a war decides who stayes where.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

If you have no idea what you talking about then how about just...................... 

6 days war?????Before Israel the Egypts occupied the strip.In the 6 days war Israel crushed them all,and of course Israel stayed.The winner of a war decides who stayes where.

The UN disagrees with you.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 minutes ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

The winner of a war decides who stayes where.

In that case Ukraine is wrong to want the Crimea back. Zelensky might disagree with you though.

[mrmicbkktxl]

45 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL.

 

The UN certainly thinks Gaza has desalination plants. They have 3, which you'd know if you had googled

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/18/middleeast/gaza-water-access-supply-mapped-dg/index.html

The last functioning desalination plant shut down on Sunday due to lack of fuel, as did the last functioning wastewater treatment plant, the UN reported.

Yes,but not built by hamas,built by UNESCO,power plant also not biult by hamas.hamas use all the money they receive from EU,USA etc. to build their war machine.

[mrmicbkktxl]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The UN disagrees with you.

Who are UN and Selensky?Anyway don't compare apples and .... Ukraine -Russia and Israel-hamas wars are not comparable

[Dcheech]

On 10/22/2023 at 11:15 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

I fail to understand why he has not elected to use the tools available to him  to force netanyahu to call off the bombing, to send the army home and to let the aid trucks through.

First Biden responds to what Americans want, not to what you, a New Zealander, wants.

What does everyone say, been saying for years now; the days of American hegemony are over. It's a multi polar world . Yet people do not seem to grasp the realities of that. He can advise Bibi, but Nettie can do whatever he wants to, up to and including attacking Iran. The US can do very little about it, or stop it. They will be on their own in that case, Biden has told Bibi that. He has also told him what could happen if it is a long drawn out occupy/punish Gaza. However Biden, read US, does not have the pull to stop Bibi. The multi polar world, what a concept. Notice how other countries are stepping up to help defuse this situation in true 'multi polar' fashion. Like China, Russia, Saudi, the EU, or the Arab block? You didn't, no excrement! You can expect a whole lot a crouching on the sidelines, wringing of hands & crocodile tears, while doing absolutely nothing, as they calculate how they can best benefit from the situation. 
Welcome to the future. 
 

 

. 

[Walker88]

No minds are going to be changed on this issue, so how about considering this:

 

Had there been no Nazi Germany and no Holocaust, would there be a Middle East problem now?

 

Is it possible there would not have been the determination to find a safe place for the Jewish people? Was pre-Holocaust Zionism so strong that it would have resulted in an "Israel" absent Hitler?

 

Go one step farther back and ask, if there had not been the demand for reparations after WWI, which eventually led to Weimar hyperinflation, and which set the stage for a demagogue like Hitler to come along, would WWII AND the Middle East problem have come about?

Edited October 23, 2023 by Walker88

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

No minds are going to be changed on this issue, so how about considering this:

 

Had there been no Nazi Germany and no Holocaust, would there be a Middle East problem now?

 

Is it possible there would not have been the determination to find a safe place for the Jewish? Was pre-Holocaust Zionism so strong that it would have resulted in an "Israel" absent Hitler?

 

Go one step farther back and ask, if there had not been the demand for reparations after WWI, which eventually led to Weimar hyperinflation, and which set the stage for a demagogue like Hitler to come along, would WWII AND the Middle East problem have come about?

 

Yawn. Let's imagine solar power was the thing, rather than oil.

And so on and so forth.

 

What if this, what if that, how about the other.

[Walker88]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yawn. Let's imagine solar power was the thing, rather than oil.

And so on and so forth.

 

What if this, what if that, how about the other.

I'll see your "yawn" and raise you one....

 

In approximately 5000 comments in several threads of this issue, has a single mind been changed or a single life been saved?

 

You and others argue that 'somebody's' actions caused the Israeli response; in other words, your foist blame and a 'well, if Hamas hadn't, etc.'

 

Thus, I blame Germany. If the Nazis hadn't...if Hamas hadn't....both now history.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Walker88

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I'll see your "yawn" and raise you one....

 

In approximately 5000 comments in several threads of this issue, has a single mind been changed or a single life been saved?

 

You and others argue that 'somebody's' actions caused the Israeli response; in other words, your foist blame and a 'well, if Hamas hadn't, etc.'

 

Thus, I blame Germany.

 

No, that would be you framing things to fit a bogus argument.

Some (or even many) comments focus on who started it, others do not.

 

Anyway, referencing directly involved parties is one thing, your far fetched historical what if's are another.

[Thorgal]

3 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

that would be a great theory, but Palestinians HAVENT owned it for thousands of years. The Ottomans owned, the British owned it, hell even the Romans owned it. And guess what? There were Jews there all along too. Not like suddenly in 1946, shiploads of concentration camp survivors just randomly looked at a map, pointed, and said "let's go THERE". 

 

The Palestinians have nobody to blame but themselves, and the Arab League. They thought they could simply massacre all the Jews in 1948, and reclaim what they wanted. Fortunately they were wrong. And thus the Palestinian refugee crisis was born. The same Arab League countries have refused to allow any civil or economic rights to the Palestinian refugees they begrudgingly host. One only needs to look at how other, civilized countries have treated Palestinians to see the stark contrast. 

 

Pure historical revisionism and negationism...