Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Where does it states in the latest 2017 Hamas Charter about the so called "genocide of Jews between the river and the sea"?

 

It's rather misleading and false to cumulate and/or mix both charters of Hamas...to pinpoint (justify) any topics in latest 2023 conflict.

 

Nonsense.

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

No problem. Case closed for me as per your request.

 

But you've quoted an article/analysis from Bruce Hoffman in The Atlantic.

He's too biased for me to analyze the latest 2017 Hamas charter because he's an Israeli citizen too.

 

Quote from link :

He was goalkeeper for the Israeli National Field Hockey team in 1979 and 1980.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Hoffman

Case was closed a long time ago until you started your dishonest debating. Pathetic

[Morch]

30 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  In 2017 ?

That ship has already sailed .

Its no longer in Israel's interests to help Palestine get a Country .

More Jewish settlements in the West Bank  and shrinking Gaza is in Israel's interests 

Sorry Pallys, your ships sailed about 30 years ago and the Worlds moved on since then 

 

That's your opinion.

 

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

No problem. Case closed for me as per your request.

 

But you've quoted an article/analysis from Bruce Hoffman in The Atlantic.

He's too biased for me to analyze the latest 2017 Hamas charter because he's an Israeli citizen too.

 

Quote from link :

He was goalkeeper for the Israeli National Field Hockey team in 1979 and 1980.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Hoffman

 

More nonsense.

[Nick Carter icp]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

That's your opinion.

 

 

  Yes, I do tend to write my opinion , rather than writing other peoples opinion 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Yes, I do tend to write my opinion , rather than writing other peoples opinion 

 

So when you announce what Israel's interests 'are' - you're basically opining on what you think them to be, rather than how the Israeli government or the Israeli people see things. I'm just clarifying here that the bit you posted earlier is quite out there in terms of policy and reality.

[Nick Carter icp]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

So when you announce what Israel's interests 'are' - you're basically opining on what you think them to be, rather than how the Israeli government or the Israeli people see things. I'm just clarifying here that the bit you posted earlier is quite out there in terms of policy and reality.

 

   OK, what are the goals and policies of Israel in regards to the Palestinians ?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   OK, what are the goals and policies of Israel in regards to the Palestinians ?

 

That goes way beyond the scope of the topic.

 

The short version is that Israel does not have either a coherent policy nor a clear goal with regard to the Palestinians.

 

But even if we limit the premise to fit the discussion at hand, the above holds:

 

There are various official Israel statements about the current goal in the Gaza Strip being 'eradicating' (or some similar term) Hamas. As far as I'm aware, there was no clear public clarification of what this amounts to. Every card carrying member killed? Just the military wing's men? How about Hamas as a political party? And what about Hamas in the West Bank? There were some ad-hoc comments on such issues (mostly in interviews and as responses to direct questions) which fall short of official policy, and do not address all points.

 

But let's say Hamas is 'eradicated'. Fine. What then? What's the plan for the Gaza Strip on the day after? Or a couple of years down the road? Again, all that's officially on offer are a collection of statements, quoted bits from politicians and ad-hoc commentary on interviews and such. There's even less clarity on this than on the previous point. Will the IDF stick around? For how long? In what strength? In which role? No clear idea or plan. Who will take charge of the Gaza Strip? The PA? International force? Nobody knows, apparently least of all Israel where various political players spew all sort of 'solutions' which got little to do with reality.

 

Take a more up to date issue: Hostages. How does 'we will work toward releasing all hostages' fit with 'we will eradicate Hamas'? If Hamas was to take this at face value, what would be the motivation to release hostages, if it's gonna be 'eradicated' anyway? Again, no clear goal, no clear policy.

 

This is pretty much how Israel rolls since it gained independence. Maybe slightly better in earlier years when things were somewhat simpler. Netanyahu's rule is and has been an example of taking this to the max (no pun intended, max).

[Danny Australia]

 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1728351249295110400

 

 

“Dedicating this explosion to my daughter Ella for her birthday”

These were the words uttered by Major Moshe Grunberg from the 271st Combat Engineering Battalion who dedicated the demolition of an entire building in Gaza yesterday, shortly before ceasefire, to his daughter Ella's 2-year birthday.

 

This is the army being marketed as one of the most ethical, humane and professional army in the world. 

 

[Wobblybob]

6 hours ago, Danny Australia said:

 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1728351249295110400

 

 

“Dedicating this explosion to my daughter Ella for her birthday”

These were the words uttered by Major Moshe Grunberg from the 271st Combat Engineering Battalion who dedicated the demolition of an entire building in Gaza yesterday, shortly before ceasefire, to his daughter Ella's 2-year birthday.

 

This is the army being marketed as one of the most ethical, humane and professional army in the world. 

 

Reality check: One soldier doth not make an army, but nice try, you must try harder to denigrate the Israelis as these pathetic smears are not working. 

 

[Bkk Brian]

More innocent children and women hostages released by the terrorists and more terrorists released by Israel. 

 

 

"This bull<deleted> propaganda video, released by Hamas, in which the same terrorist group that murdered, tortured, and raped Israelis - now says "welcome" and pats them on the back. 

These vile, disgusting monsters can take their filthy hands off our families and remember that they are not long for this world."

 

 

 

 

 

[Wobblybob]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

More innocent children and women hostages released by the terrorists and more terrorists released by Israel. 

What animals would kidnap children and a baby (9 months old) or anybody else for that matter, and some people are making excuses for these sadistic excuses for human beings. 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

What animals would kidnap children and a baby (9 months old) or anybody else for that matter, and some people are making excuses for these sadistic excuses for human beings. 

 

 

 

These <deleted> animals:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/13/hamas-english-press-conference-global-condemnation-israel/

[Walker88]

23 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Overall, one of the finer posts on these topics. Thank you for the perspective.

 

I would argue some minor points, though -

 

The level of religious conviction and indoctrination does not run quite as deep as sometimes assumed. Watching some of the clips (granted, released by Israel) of captured Hamas men, it would seem there's a gap between the image of 'holy warriors' and what actually took place, which some seem to have difficulty bridging. I think that while religious indoctrination is a powerful tool, it is also open to disillusionment - which may have a more lasting effect (at least I hope so). Even among Palestinians civilians interviewed, there is often a reluctance to accept the reality of the atrocities committed - as they run counter to other interpretations of Islam.

 

Jordan's population is of ~70% Palestinian origins. So while 'true' Jordanians may be less invested in the Palestinian struggle, more 'liberal' (though not anywhere near 'liberal' in reality) and aware of the country's need for USA support - it's, IMO a time bomb. Eventually there will be a power shift, or a more successful power struggle than the 1970 thing.

 

The issue with Iran was never (IMO) direct involvement. Iran does not operate this way, certainly not under prevailing conditions. In that regard, leaving the Hamas out in the cold was pretty much expected. But on the other hand, Iran's way of working through proxies means in can cause a whole lot of problems, and widen the circle of violence by spreading the conflict to additional arenas. That Iran does not (apparently) fully control all of it's proxies adds to the danger of things getting out of hand.

 

On the larger subject of global reactions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict vs. the Russia-Ukraine one - this is were religion and prejudice play their part. This goes back to religion (and bigotry) being more emotional, powerful motivators than 'ordinary' politics.

 

I try to tread carefully in these Israel-Palestine threads, as I am well aware some people are heavily invested. As most of the posts are just arguments back and forth, I try to add some perspective, which is, of course, just an opinion, but it is not an argument.

 

I know there are many Jewish people commenting, and there are also anti-semites. Then there are those who do have a genuine concern for innocent life...on both sides. It all gets lost in the fighting.

 

I am not Jewish, but I know enough history to know Jews have suffered discrimination and/or horror for a few thousand years. If I were the offspring of people who survived the Holocaust, I might be much more strident in my views as to what should be done in Gaza. I understand that sentiment, and I absolutely know I would not be above it, if it was part of my being. I guess it remains up to those without as much skin in the game to push for as much restraint as possible, so that more innocents do not suffer. That is where the US sits now.

 

Anti-semitism is an odd thing, in terms of trying to understand why the Jews? (yes, I know Arabs are also considered Semites). I suspect it is jealousy at its true core. This is perhaps a dangerous thing to say, but no faith or ethnic group in all of history comes even remotely close to the accomplishments of the Jewish people. Frankly, it is astonishing how much they have brought to the betterment of the entire species. That level of achievement probably rubs many the wrong way. We would like to consider all of us equal, and under the law we are (or should be), but the facts show not all are equal in terms of intellect and ability, drive and ambition. Of course we cannot have a "worst", but arguably there is a "best" for all to see...and some do not want to see it.

 

I'm not a jealous type; rather, I stand in awe of intellectual and creative excellence. I admire all intellectual excellence no matter its source, but so much has come from a people who have always been a distinct minority. Maybe I'm dead wrong, but I think astonishing success is what has driven the historical persecution of the Jews.

 

There is a scene in Schindler's List where Amon is part of clearing the Warsaw Ghetto. He speaks of the Jewish presence over the centuries in Poland, noting their many accomplishments in business, science, the arts and academia. He then says, "that all ends today, erased from history". Granted that is the writer and Spielberg putting that in, but I think it reflects the true sentiments and motivations of the Nazis (and antisemites), besides needing a focal point for mobilizing the people (just as all dictators do).

Edited November 26, 2023 by Walker88

[Thorgal]

7 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

More innocent children and women hostages released by the terrorists and more terrorists released by Israel. 

 

 

"This bull<deleted> propaganda video, released by Hamas, in which the same terrorist group that murdered, tortured, and raped Israelis - now says "welcome" and pats them on the back. 

These vile, disgusting monsters can take their filthy hands off our families and remember that they are not long for this world."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hostages from both sides could have been exchanged peacefully much earlier without ground offensive and without carpet bombing Gaza strip.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Thorgal

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

 

I try to tread carefully in these Israel-Palestine threads, as I am well aware some people are heavily invested. As most of the posts are just arguments back and forth, I try to add some perspective, which is, of course, just an opinion, but it is not an argument.

 

I know there are many Jewish people commenting, and there are also anti-semites. Then there are those who do have a genuine concern for innocent life...on both sides. It all gets lost in the fighting.

 

I am not Jewish, but I know enough history to know Jews have suffered discrimination and/or horror for a few thousand years. If I were the offspring of people who survived the Holocaust, I might be much more strident in my views as to what should be done in Gaza. I understand that sentiment, and I absolutely know I would not be above it, if it was part of my being. I guess it remains up to those without as much skin in the game to push for as much restraint as possible, so that more innocents do not suffer. That is where the US sits now.

 

Anti-semitism is an odd thing, in terms of trying to understand why the Jews? (yes, I know Arabs are also considered Semites). I suspect it is jealousy at its true core. This is perhaps a dangerous thing to say, but no faith or ethnic group in all of history comes even remotely close to the accomplishments of the Jewish people. Frankly, it is astonishing how much they have brought to the betterment of the entire species. That level of achievement probably rubs many the wrong way. We would like to consider all of us equal, and under the law we are (or should be), but the facts show not all are equal in terms of intellect and ability, drive and ambition. Of course we cannot have a "worst", but arguably there is a "best" for all to see...and some do not want to see it.

 

I'm not a jealous type; rather, I stand in awe of intellectual and creative excellence. I admire all intellectual excellence no matter its source, but so much has come from a people who have always been a distinct minority. Maybe I'm dead wrong, but I think astonishing success is what has driven the historical persecution of the Jews.

 

There is a scene in Schindler's List where Amon is part of clearing the Warsaw Ghetto. He speaks of the Jewish presence over the centuries in Poland, noting their many accomplishments in business, science, the arts and academia. He then says, "that all ends today, erased from history". Granted that is the writer and Spielberg putting that in, but I think it reflects the true sentiments and motivations of the Nazis, besides needing a focal point for mobilizing the people (just as all dictators do).

 

While I'm aware many Israelis (and some posters) relate to the Holocaust/Hamas attack comparisons, and I can understand why - it still seems odd, and unhelpful. Hamas does not have any capacity to carry out anything remotely resembling the horrors done by the Nazis, and Israel's situation is quite different than that of Europe's Jews back then. 

 

The flip side would be the moral expectation (not getting into whether it's genuine or not) that people who have gone through such horrors would be more compassionate toward others. Guess that most Psychology 101 classes will shoot that one out of the water real quick. And if not, there's always Erik Lehnsherr to do the explaining. Something like 'never again' is maybe easier to convey than a more complex, and dubious, imperative.

 

My impression is that the association is somewhat tied to political positions, and the former representing a more right-wing stance. At least as far as Israeli politics and these forum discussions go. The latter would be more of Left (or far Left) deal, but again - the application often seems insincere.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Hostages from both sides could have been exchanged peacefully much earlier without ground offensive and without carpet bombing Gaza strip.

 

 

You say that based on what? Hamas comments? Hamas expressing willingness to 'trade'? One thing for sure, even if this was true, they'd ask for way different 'exchange ratio'. It could be argued that Hamas's willingness to negotiate is a direct result of the loses it takes, and the destruction meted on Gaza.

 

And, of course, the Gaza Strip was not 'carpet bombed' other than in your posts.

[Bkk Brian]

15 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Hostages from both sides could have been exchanged peacefully much earlier without ground offensive and without carpet bombing Gaza strip.

 

Nonsense comment, there were and are only hostages on one side. 

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Palestinian citizens were taken as hostages in Occupied Territories.

 

   Those Palestinian  citizens  being held in Israel jails were criminals in jail for committing crimes 

AS you don't seem to recognise or respect any rules or laws, I expect you will see those criminals in jail as innocent people 

[Thorgal]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You say that based on what? Hamas comments? Hamas expressing willingness to 'trade'? One thing for sure, even if this was true, they'd ask for way different 'exchange ratio'. It could be argued that Hamas's willingness to negotiate is a direct result of the loses it takes, and the destruction meted on Gaza.

 

And, of course, the Gaza Strip was not 'carpet bombed' other than in your posts.

 

Carpet bombing from IDF/IAF has been done to get Palestinian civilians out of North Gaza and to prepare the ground offensive.

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Thorgal said:

 

Carpet bombing from IDF/IAF has been done to get Palestinian civilians out of North Gaza and to prepare the ground offensive.

 

Carpet bombing occurred in WW2 not Gaza, and those civilians were warned to move before bombs dropped

[Thorgal]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Those Palestinian  citizens  being held in Israel jails were criminals in jail for committing crimes 

AS you don't seem to recognise or respect any rules or laws, I expect you will see those criminals in jail as innocent people 

 

These Palestinians are hostages and were jailed under Israeli Military court in Palestinian Occupied Territories. Some even never had a fair trial.

 

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

These Palestinians are hostages and were jailed under Israeli Military court in Palestinian Occupied Territories. Some even never had a fair trial.

 

More nonsense:

 

 

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Carpet bombing from IDF/IAF has been done to get Palestinian civilians out of North Gaza and to prepare the ground offensive.

 

 

No, it wasn't. Not every bombing is carpet bombing. This was discussed in the previous topics, there is no chance you're not aware of this. You're just trolling, as usual.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

These Palestinians are hostages and were jailed under Israeli Military court in Palestinian Occupied Territories. Some even never had a fair trial.

 

 

They were not arrested and imprisoned as 'hostages'. Give it a rest, troll.

[Nick Carter icp]

7 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

These Palestinians are hostages and were jailed under Israeli Military court in Palestinian Occupied Territories. Some even never had a fair trial.

 

 

  You side with terrorists , kidnappers, hostage takers , rapists and murderers , of course you are going to see your side as being innocents and the people whom they rape, kidnap and murder as being innocent of any crimes they commit .

   You side with Evil 

[Thorgal]

25 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  You side with terrorists , kidnappers, hostage takers , rapists and murderers , of course you are going to see your side as being innocents and the people whom they rape, kidnap and murder as being innocent of any crimes they commit .

   You side with Evil 

 

Before your accusations to me you should consider that none of these Palestinian hostages received a fair trial by any civil court or any international law. To label them as terrorists, murderers, rapists, etc. is not true.

[placeholder]

In fact, Israel employs administrative detention on a routine basis. And Palestinians who aren't being held under administrative detention are mostly tried by military courts which (surprise surprise) have a near perfect conviction record. Israelis on the West Bank are tried by civilian courts. Even before the war, over a thousand Palestinians were being held in administrative detention.

Why Israel imprisons so many Palestinians

The result is that today, thousands of Palestinians, including hundreds of children, are held in Israeli custody on murky legal grounds — a problem that’s only gotten worse in recent years. Some human rights organizations have called out Israel’s military-imposed legal system in the West Bank as evidence that Israel is committing the crime of persecution, intentionally depriving Palestinians of their fundamental rights because of their ethnic identity.

That’s why, even well before this war, the release of these prisoners has been a key Palestinian demand in negotiations with Israel. 

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/palestinian-prisoners-israel-administrative-detention

[Bkk Brian]

14 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Before your accusations to me you should consider that none of these Palestinian hostages received a fair trial by any civil court or any international law. To label them as terrorists, murderers, rapists, etc. is not true.

B.S. These are hostages, there are only hostages on one side, your a sick individual attempting to compare the two:

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Bkk Brian

[Wobblybob]

1 hour ago, Thorgal said:

 

Hostages from both sides could have been exchanged peacefully much earlier without ground offensive and without carpet bombing Gaza strip.

 

That is your opinion and only an opinion. The general consensus is that all the hostages would still be in the hands of the terrorists had the Israelis not gone into Gaza, and it goes without saying that these hostages should have never been taken in the first place. But it is one excuse after another with certain posters on here trying to justify the actions of these sadistic barbarians.

The terrorists are releasing innocent Israeli civilians whilst the Israelis are releasing Palestian terrorists!