The Problem With EVs

[HighPriority]

It’s amazing the lengths people will go to in order to make an argument that suits whatever their agenda is.

Often that agenda is the status quo which in their eyes is some sort of Nirvana… 

 

[Lacessit]

7 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

I was hardly frothing at the mouth, but apologies if I mixed up my replies.

When you use terms such as ridiculous, nonsensical and far-fetched, I have this mental image of a Colonel Blimp, indignantly spluttering into his sherry in the officer's bar. Apologies if that is not you.

[JBChiangRai]

Imagine a piece of cheese fell off the moon and smashed into the road and you drove over it and damaged your battery pack, definitely a risk these darn EV's,

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

When you use terms such as ridiculous, nonsensical and far-fetched, I have this mental image of a Colonel Blimp, indignantly spluttering into his sherry in the officer's bar. Apologies if that is not you.

It's not me, I don't really like sherry.

[josephbloggs]

7 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I think that given that the battery pack is approx 65%-75% total cost of the vehicle if you include removal of battery pack costs, replacement battery cost's and re-installation of battery pack both the rental agency and the renter should be taking pictures of the battery pack before rental and end of rental

I'm not aware of any EV that has visible battery packs you can take a picture of. They are encased and protected and often built into to the chassis of the car, for obvious reasons. Do you really think they are hanging off the outside of the vehicle?

Do you ask to take photos of the fuel tank when you rent a car because, you know, the previous renter might have damaged it and there could be a dangerous fuel leak? (Hint: fuel tanks are also generally not visible as they also don't hang off the sides of the car)

Edited December 13, 2023 by josephbloggs

[JBChiangRai]

7 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I think that given that the battery pack is approx 65%-75% total cost of the vehicle if you include removal of battery pack costs, replacement battery cost's and re-installation of battery pack both the rental agency and the renter should be taking pictures of the battery pack before rental and end of rental

if a rental agency driver slightly damaged the battery pack would they

A) withdraw the vehicle from their stock

B) advised potential renter that the battery pack has sustained minor damage but the damage doesn't affect the vehicle as far as driving or performance

C) doesn't advise potential renter that the battery pack has sustained minor damage but checks and points out to the driver on their return of the vehicle that they will need to submit a claim on their insurance

 

 

 

I think any impact strong enough to damage an EV battery pack would probably be strong enough to write off an ICE vehicle.

[digbeth]

10 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

I'm not aware of any EV that has visible battery packs you can take a picture of. They are encased and protected and often built into to the chassis of the car, for obvious reasons. Do you really think they are hanging off the outside of the vehicle?

Do you ask to take photos of the fuel tank when you rent a car because, you know, the previous renter might have damaged it and there could be a dangerous fuel leak? (Hint: fuel tanks are also generally not visible as they also don't hang off the sides of the car)

Protective covers or not, The EV version of Honda HR-V has badly positioned battery packs you can see

 

even in case of hidden packs, earlier this year Ora Good Cat here in Thailand rode a kerb, damaged the battery cover and insurance company deemed total loss as the cost to replace the whole battery was over 70% of the insured value

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, josephbloggs said:

I'm not aware of any EV that has visible battery packs you can take a picture of. They are encased and protected and often built into to the chassis of the car, for obvious reasons. Do you really think they are hanging off the outside of the vehicle?

Do you ask to take photos of the fuel tank when you rent a car because, you know, the previous renter might have damaged it and there could be a dangerous fuel leak? (Hint: fuel tanks are also generally not visible as they also don't hang off the sides of the car)

Battery packs built into the chassis is a new recent development BYD seal being the 1st prior 

Petrol or diesel fuel leak tends to leave a strong smell and the fuel tank doesn't cost approx 65%-75% total cost of the vehicle 

Majority of battery pack external casings are made of metal  but some are made of plastic material that are susceptible to rat bites or can be damaged by large stones on the road which can lead to water entering the battery pack

as stated

if a rental agency driver slightly damaged the battery pack would they

A) withdraw the vehicle from their stock

B) advised potential renter that the battery pack has sustained minor damage but the damage doesn't affect the vehicle as far as driving or performance

C) doesn't advise potential renter that the battery pack has sustained minor damage but checks and points out to the driver on their return of the vehicle that they will need to submit a claim on their insurance

A and B can potential lead to a major cost to the rental agency if they don't have adequate insurance coverage

[BritManToo]

5 hours ago, HighPriority said:

It’s amazing the lengths people will go to in order to make an argument that suits whatever their agenda is.

Often that agenda is the status quo which in their eyes is some sort of Nirvana… 

 

I prefer Status Quo to Nirvana!

 

I paid 150kbht for my sh nissan pickup (still going after 12 years), and will certainly consider replacing it with an ev pickup, once their price is down to 150kbth.

Edited December 13, 2023 by BritManToo

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think any impact strong enough to damage an EV battery pack would probably be strong enough to write off an ICE vehicle.

Completely disagree I have seen many pictures on this forum and on brand facebook pages where EV's have been written off with relative external  minor damage they have been written off because the total cost of the repair exceeds 70% of the total capital insured amount 

It has been pointed out that some MG models have MG  Metal battery cases and Modular batteries

I have yet to see a single MG written off due to  Modular batteries damaged

Edited December 13, 2023 by vinny41
add

[Photoguy21]

On 12/12/2023 at 4:53 PM, Mr Meeseeks said:

 

1. New EVs have range in the 600 km region, exceeding the range of many ICE vehicles.

2. Costs are comparative, but when it comes to performance and equipment, EVs present a very good case for their value (see the new BYD Seal as an example).

3. More and more charging points are being installed everywhere around the country. Nearly all PTT stations have a couple of charging bays now.

4. Trade in value will exceed that of ICE vehicles. Aside from the obvious such as less wear on EV components (they have no engine, gearbox etc), the Thai government is encouraging EV adoption, so it that trend continues as expected, EVs will hold their value more than tradition ICE vehicles.

1. Is the range what the manufacture quotes or have you verified that yourself?

2. For good value you also need to include the depreciation factor as well and not just cost. From what I have read, certainly in Europe, car dealers cant get rid of second hand EV's

3. Good that there are more charging pooints but you still have a lot longer wait than with an ICE and that is assuming you can get on one with no waiting and that they are all working.

4. Trade in value has been clearly shown in Europe at least is significantly lower than for ICE.

[Gweiloman]

I can accept that some folks are fans of ICEVs but I don’t understand the anti-EV stance that they possess.
 

Granted, if you live in a condo without charging facilities, if you drive long distances regularly, if your employer forces you to make a 300 km journey at a moment’s notice, then an EV should not be your vehicle of choice.

 

However, how can anyone be opposed to reduced air and noise pollution, particularly in urban areas? In fact, the government can reduce or take away the subsidy for EVs but give a subsidy for a solar installation if done in conjunction with an EV purchase. This can reduce the demand on the grid and at the same time, promote better living conditions for the majority. 
 

Everyone that has sat in my EVs has been extremely impressed by the ride and build quality of the current China made EVs. When they hear that I am able to travel hundreds and thousands of kilometres on fresh air and sunshine alone, they all wish they have one as well. 
 

Again, an EV is not suitable for everyone but I believe it’s suitable for the majority of road users, here in Thailand.

[josephbloggs]

3 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

I can accept that some folks are fans of ICEVs but I don’t understand the anti-EV stance that they possess.
 

Granted, if you live in a condo without charging facilities, if you drive long distances regularly, if your employer forces you to make a 300 km journey at a moment’s notice, then an EV should not be your vehicle of choice.

 

However, how can anyone be opposed to reduced air and noise pollution, particularly in urban areas? In fact, the government can reduce or take away the subsidy for EVs but give a subsidy for a solar installation if done in conjunction with an EV purchase. This can reduce the demand on the grid and at the same time, promote better living conditions for the majority. 
 

Everyone that has sat in my EVs has been extremely impressed by the ride and build quality of the current China made EVs. When they hear that I am able to travel hundreds and thousands of kilometres on fresh air and sunshine alone, they all wish they have one as well. 
 

Again, an EV is not suitable for everyone but I believe it’s suitable for the majority of road users, here in Thailand.

I also don't understand it. I have a petrol turbo car (have always has petrol cars) and I love it. I also really like and admire EVs. I don't understand why the two sentiments have to be mutually exclusive, but for the anti-EV posters it is almost a hate position and they dream up fantasy scenarios why they don't work which just shows a closed mind. They may not be right for you, but why can't you admire the technology and benefits they bring to other people?

Do diesel lovers hate petrol cars? No. Do petrol lovers have hate for diesel drivers? Nope.  But mention EVs and it gets a certain section of ICE people getting quite upset, I don't get it - it is just another propulsion method at the end of the day, albeit a cleaner and quieter one.

And I think your point about people who have been in yours really liking them and wanting one is telling. I too was very skectical and, as a petrol head, thought I would never enjoy an EV.........until I tried one. Sadly the most vehemently anti-EV poster will never likely try one, again showing a closed mind.



 

[Lee65]

3 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

When they hear that I am able to travel hundreds and thousands of kilometres on fresh air and sunshine alone, they all wish they have one as well. 

 

Well, I guess it's case closed then!

[Stevemercer]

On 12/12/2023 at 1:30 PM, Peterphuket said:

Imagine, then you stop somewhere for a battery change, you just got a new car with new battery, after the change you find out you have a 4-year-old battery....
Not unthinkable

 

Yes. I think the future model will be 'buy the car, but lease the battery' because no one will want to exchange a new battery they have just brought. In theory, leasing the battery would mean a much lower upfront cost for a new car and no worries about the battery becasue you don't own it and can conveniently exchange it in 5 minutes. The leasing costs would probably equate to the price of a new battery over its average life (10 years).

 

The 'battery exchange' companies will obviously need the infrastructure to fast recharge the batteries and to certify them to an acceptable standard for range purposes. The companies will also be able to feed back into the electricity grid using their stores of EV batteries. They will obviously sell power back into the grid during peak times, when prices are high, and recharge batteries off-peak.

[BKKBike09]

21 minutes ago, Stevemercer said:

 

Yes. I think the future model will be 'buy the car, but lease the battery' because no one will want to exchange a new battery they have just brought. In theory, leasing the battery would mean a much lower upfront cost for a new car and no worries about the battery becasue you don't own it and can conveniently exchange it in 5 minutes. The leasing costs would probably equate to the price of a new battery over its average life (10 years).

 

The 'battery exchange' companies will obviously need the infrastructure to fast recharge the batteries and to certify them to an acceptable standard for range purposes. The companies will also be able to feed back into the electricity grid using their stores of EV batteries. They will obviously sell power back into the grid during peak times, when prices are high, and recharge batteries off-peak.

 

That would be a good system.

 

I suspect that - as EVs become more and more popular - the resale value of mass market used vehicles will drop like a stone. Being an EV owner (a BYD Atto) I hope I'm wrong, of course, but seems to me that battery/charging technology is developing so fast that - as with phones and computers - the base price may not change much but the spec will change hugely. 

 

Atto cost me THB 1.2 million for a 60kw/h battery that gives around 400 km real world range and can charge at just under 90 kwh.

 

If I want to sell when it's three years old, I'd say a guesstimate for market value of a 1.2 million ICE at that point would be around 7-800K. Question will be if I ask that for my EV, what will be a prospective buyer's options in terms of a new EV market for that sort of price - probably quite a few cars with bigger batteries, more range and faster charging. We shall see.

 

 

 

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Stevemercer said:

 

Yes. I think the future model will be 'buy the car, but lease the battery' because no one will want to exchange a new battery they have just brought. In theory, leasing the battery would mean a much lower upfront cost for a new car and no worries about the battery becasue you don't own it and can conveniently exchange it in 5 minutes. The leasing costs would probably equate to the price of a new battery over its average life (10 years).

 

The 'battery exchange' companies will obviously need the infrastructure to fast recharge the batteries and to certify them to an acceptable standard for range purposes. The companies will also be able to feed back into the electricity grid using their stores of EV batteries. They will obviously sell power back into the grid during peak times, when prices are high, and recharge batteries off-peak.

 

Nio is offering its Chinese customers ane Europeans  to either purchase a car with Battery or purchase a car without a battery and providing a Battery rental service.

Battery can be charged in the normal method or at a Battery swap out station

where you can get a replacement fully charged battery in 5 minutes 

with the battery as a service option you never own the battery so no worries about battery degradation

if you have the 75-kwh battery and you need more powerful battery for long road trip you can rent 100-kwh battery for one month and then swap back to 75-kwh battery

https://www.drive.com.au/news/new-nio-battery-swap-stations-europe/

 

NIO ET5 Touring prices in China

Starting price with battery

75-kWh    ¥298,000 RMB
100-kWh    ¥356,000 RMB

Starting Price without Battery
75-kWh ¥228,000 RMB
100-kWh    ¥228,000 RMB

Battery monthly rental price
75-kWh ¥980 RMB
100-kWh ¥1,680 RMB
paying battery monthly rental for 71.5 months for 75-kwh will be the same as buying car with battery
paying battery monthly rental for 76 months for 100-kwh will be the same as buying car with battery

https://cnevpost.com/2023/06/15/nio-launches-et5-touring/

NIO Launches Battery as a Service

https://www.nio.com/news/nio-launches-battery-service

[Bandersnatch]

15 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

for the anti-EV posters it is almost a hate position

 

@josephbloggs Your topic really brought out the EV hating loonies, is it a full moon?

 

They have

 

No interest in owning an EV,

Clearly no knowledge about EVs,

No experience in owning an EV,

 

Yet they want to spend their time arguing with people who have years of EV driving experience.  

 

Good job keeping your cool.

[vinny41]

19 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

I can accept that some folks are fans of ICEVs but I don’t understand the anti-EV stance that they possess.
 

Granted, if you live in a condo without charging facilities, if you drive long distances regularly, if your employer forces you to make a 300 km journey at a moment’s notice, then an EV should not be your vehicle of choice.

 

However, how can anyone be opposed to reduced air and noise pollution, particularly in urban areas? In fact, the government can reduce or take away the subsidy for EVs but give a subsidy for a solar installation if done in conjunction with an EV purchase. This can reduce the demand on the grid and at the same time, promote better living conditions for the majority. 
 

Everyone that has sat in my EVs has been extremely impressed by the ride and build quality of the current China made EVs. When they hear that I am able to travel hundreds and thousands of kilometres on fresh air and sunshine alone, they all wish they have one as well. 
 

Again, an EV is not suitable for everyone but I believe it’s suitable for the majority of road users, here in Thailand.

"When they hear that I am able to travel hundreds and thousands of kilometres on fresh air and sunshine alone, they all wish they have one as well." I am not aware of any EV that can go from Phuket to Bangkok on just fresh air and sunshine are you

[billd766]

On 12/13/2023 at 7:10 AM, JBChiangRai said:

Imagine a piece of cheese fell off the moon and smashed into the road and you drove over it and damaged your battery pack, definitely a risk these darn EV's,

Imagine a metal plate from a car or a truck and you drove over it and damaged your battery pack, definitely a risk these darn EV's.

 

A definitely higher risk than a piece of cheese fell off the moon.

 

BTW, would that be blue cheese or green cheese?

[JBChiangRai]

45 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Imagine a metal plate from a car or a truck and you drove over it and damaged your battery pack, definitely a risk these darn EV's.

 

A definitely higher risk than a piece of cheese fell off the moon.

 

BTW, would that be blue cheese or green cheese?

 

I will have to ask Wallace, he's been there with his dog.

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 12/12/2023 at 4:04 PM, Homburg said:

By comparison my ICE vehicle can travel 1000km between refuelling stops and so, until I retire from work, I am reluctant to switch to an EV.  

 

The average range of an ICE vehicle according to industry figures, is 320-640 kilometres, so that must be a relatively uncommon ICE vehicle. I've owned many and none had a range anywhere near 1,000km. Most had a range of between 450 and 650 km, depending on whether I was doing urban or motorway driving.

 

Anyway, there are already a number of EV's with a range of 1,000km or thereabouts (I've posted about some of them on other threads) and while they might not become the norm (just as 1,000 km range ICE vehicles are not the norm) I suspect EV's doing 650 km or more on a full charge (like the BYD Seal, for example) will soon be common.

[josephbloggs]

59 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

 

The average range of an ICE vehicle according to industry figures, is 320-640 kilometres, so that must be a relatively uncommon ICE vehicle. I've owned many and none had a range anywhere near 1,000km. Most had a range of between 450 and 650 km, depending on whether I was doing urban or motorway driving.

 

Anyway, there are already a number of EV's with a range of 1,000km or thereabouts (I've posted about some of them on other threads) and while they might not become the norm (just as 1,000 km range ICE vehicles are not the norm) I suspect EV's doing 650 km or more on a full charge (like the BYD Seal, for example) will soon be common.

Yep. My petrol car does around 480 km on a full tank. (50 litre tank)

A smelly rattly Fortuner does maybe 800kms at the absolute maximum. If the poster can do 1,000kms it will be a really nasty diesel box of some sort and who would want to drive more than 100kms in one of those. Is he really driving 1,000kms without stopping? That is ludicrous really.

No matter what I am driving after 300kms I need a break. After 300kms in a Fortuner I would have a headache so would need a longer stop.

 

[KhunLA]

22 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

No matter what I am driving after 300kms I need a break. After 300kms in a Fortuner I would have a headache so would need a longer stop.

I'm good for about 3 hrs, and on Thai roads, that's only about 250-275 kms, if lucky.   Then it's a welcomed stop, half hour +/-, along with top up back to 80-90%, and a much.  

 

Though rare we make it to 3 hrs without wife, dog or myself needing a stop.  

[Gweiloman]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

"When they hear that I am able to travel hundreds and thousands of kilometres on fresh air and sunshine alone, they all wish they have one as well." I am not aware of any EV that can go from Phuket to Bangkok on just fresh air and sunshine are you

Who said anything about doing a long distance trip? I’ve driven thousands of kms without having to shell out any additional money (for those that insist solar is not free). A few other posters such as KhunLA, Bandersnatch and JbChiangrai does the same.

[GinBoy2]

I've never honestly thought EV's are the future, I'm more hopeful for H2 fuel cells.

 

Location is one problem, in geographies where distance is a issue, thats one problem.

 

Charging time is another.

 

You can fill your gas tank to full in a couple of minutes, try charging an EV, even with a fast charger in that time, just plug it in and go and get some lunch!

 

We have a Ranger truck in Thailand, which I have no intention of replacing, and even if I did what percentage of electricity is produced from carbon in Thailand, probably I'd just be lining the pockets of the lithium mining companies.

 

In the US we just bought a new car, and I looked at a Tesla, but....

We live in South Dakota and the distances are huge. A six hour drive to see the kids in Denver, and there is one charging station in the wilderness of Wyoming.

Thats's down, and you might as well book a hotel in 'Hicksville' for the winter, since I don't think AAA will be bringing out the electric equivalent of a gallon of gas to get you out of trouble!

Edited December 14, 2023 by GinBoy2

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

I've never honestly thought EV's are the future, I'm more hopeful for H2 fuel cells.

 

Location is one problem, in geographies where distance is a issue, thats one problem.

 

Charging time is another.

 

You can fill your gas tank to full in a couple of minutes, try charging an EV, even with a fast charger in that time, just plug it in and go and get some lunch!

 

We have a Ranger truck in Thailand, which I have no intention of replacing, and even if I did what percentage of electricity is produced from carbon in Thailand, probably I'd just be lining the pockets of the lithium mining companies.

 

In the US we just bought a new car, and I looked at a Tesla, but....

We live in South Dakota and the distances are huge. A six hour drive to see the kids in Denver, and there is one charging station in the wilderness of Wyoming.

Thats's down, and you might as well book a hotel in 'Hicksville' for the winter, since I don't think AAA are bring out the electric equivalent of a gallon of gas to get you out of trouble!

 

 

Can I suggest you look at the efficiency of electrolysing water for Hydrogen production, compression, storage, transmission, storage again and then fueling and Hydrogen vehicle, and then compare that to putting the Electricity used to generate that Hydrogen straight into a battery?

 

Hydrogen cars are going to cost around 5 times more per kilometer to run than a BEV.

 

Even so, I think there will be a limited market for Hydrogen powered vehicles alongside what will ultimately be much more desirable a BEV.

[GinBoy2]

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

Can I suggest you look at the efficiency of electrolysing water for Hydrogen production, compression, storage, transmission, storage again and then fueling and Hydrogen vehicle, and then compare that to putting the Electricity used to generate that Hydrogen straight into a battery?

 

Hydrogen cars are going to cost around 5 times more per kilometer to run than a BEV.

 

Even so, I think there will be a limited market for Hydrogen powered vehicles alongside what will ultimately be much more desirable a BEV.

Well thats the trick isn't is.

 

Green hydrogen, produced from green electricity.

The compression technologies already exist, and we transport LPG across the globe already so we have the transportation technology

[Lee65]

4 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

Your topic really brought out the EV hating loonies

 

Ouch!  

 

Not everyone can appreciate your genius, sir.

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Well thats the trick isn't is.

 

Green hydrogen, produced from green electricity.

The compression technologies already exist, and we transport LPG across the globe already so we have the transportation technology

 

There are roughly 75-80% losses by the time Hydrogen produces electricity in your Hydrogen car, more if you explode it to move pistons.  I'm talking about Green Hydrogen.