The Children of Gaza = More than 7000 Killed.

[Hawaiian]

37 minutes ago, Zab1e said:

The only truth is “he who has the gold makes the rules” and controls the narratives. 
 

after 75 years of illegal occupation, blockades, oppression, apartheid and biased news from the mass media? 

Hamas attack does not mean attack on civilians. 

 

 

Are you implying that the IDF has infants, young children, disabled individuals and the elderly among its ranks?   Or is it you don't know the difference between a civilian or a member of the armed forces?

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No, that would be you twisting things again.

 

I'm not that interested in your opinion that Israel should not exist and so on.

Same for your questioning of Jews right to the land and so on.

They are pointless.

 

What I am addressing is a current situation and the question you raised in relation to it.

 

Realistically, what I posted is where it's at.

There will be no mass return of Palestinians to Israel, even if you feel strongly about it, and even if you feel it's unjust.

 

 

 

I never said that Israel should exist. I was turning your own argument back on you.

 

I don't feel strongly or weakly about it. I simply pointed out the exigencies. You would ignore the plight of several million refugees to support Israeli nationalism. That is the point of my argument.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

I never said that Israel should exist. I was turning your own argument back on you.

 

I don't feel strongly or weakly about it. I simply pointed out the exigencies. You would ignore the plight of several million refugees to support Israeli nationalism. That is the point of my argument.

 

Them Freudian slips....Thanks.

 

You clumsily tried to turn my argument against my, and failed. As usual.

 

I did not and do not 'ignore the plight' as you claimed - that's another lie from your lie factory.

I actually addressed the issue of their future.

 

 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Them Freudian slips....Thanks.

 

You clumsily tried to turn my argument against my, and failed. As usual.

 

I did not and do not 'ignore the plight' as you claimed - that's another lie from your lie factory.

I actually addressed the issue of their future.

 

They want to return. Millions of them I believe. You would force some other outcome on them for political convenience. I simply pointed out the logical fallacy of your argument with my analogy about European Jews. It was not reflective of my opinion and most people would get the point unless they were being deliberately obtuse.

 

[ezzra]

 

Hamas is now recruiting in Lebanon...

So now Hamas is in a foreign country recruiting local Sunni people from the refugee camp to fight Israel on it's northern

borders, soon, the cries, protests and marches bemoaning the dead Lebanese babies and 'innocent' Lebanese people will start all over

again when Israel will lay waste Lebanese cities and towns..

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/12/18/hamas-is-now-recruiting-in-lebanon-what-will-that-mean-for-hezbollah

 

[ozimoron]

Just now, ezzra said:

 

Hamas is now recruiting in Lebanon...

So now Hamas is in a foreign country recruiting local Sunni people from the refugee camp to fight Israel on it's northern

borders, soon, the cries, protests and marches bemoaning the dead Lebanese babies and 'innocent' Lebanese people will start all over

again when Israel will lay waste Lebanese cities and towns..

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/12/18/hamas-is-now-recruiting-in-lebanon-what-will-that-mean-for-hezbollah

 

 

Are you sure they're not recruiting Palestinians refugees? Local Sunni people? Obviously there will be some. Perhaps many but I think you might be mischaracterizing what's going on here. Where do you think most of those recruits were born?

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

They want to return. Millions of them I believe. You would force some other outcome on them for political convenience. I simply pointed out the logical fallacy of your argument with my analogy about European Jews. It was not reflective of my opinion and most people would get the point unless they were being deliberately obtuse.

 

 

Again, you do not make a reasoned argument, but an emotive one. I'm addressing realistic options, not your fantasy ones.

The situation back then and now is not the same, conditions are different, reality is different, things changed.

Your same-same argument does not apply.

 

As for 'wish to return' - where to? How? How would this even begin to work? How would such an influx of basically hostile population with different culture, language and religion promote a stable situation, let alone peace?

 

You are not interested in anything much but winning silly arguments. You cannot address reality, facts or the like.

[Hawaiian]

25 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The same argument could be applied to the centuries that Jews spent in Europe if one was so inclined. Many of the Jews who went to Israel from Europe and Russia after WW2 could surely not trace any ancestors back to the holy land, other than to point to their religion? All of them were citizens of their host countries. That's the essence of your argument, that they've been away so long it doesn't matter. Let alone the question of living in a refugee camp.

Every sovereign nation has the right to define their requirements for citizenship whether the rules are racist or not.  Why would anyone want to apply for citizenship to country where they are not welcome?

 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Are you sure they're not recruiting Palestinians refugees? Local Sunni people? Obviously there will be some. Perhaps many but I think you might be mischaracterizing what's going on here. Where do you think most of those recruits were born?

 

If of fighting age, they were born in Lebanon. If of Palestinians origins, they are denied citizenship and associated rights.

[ezzra]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Are you sure they're not recruiting Palestinians refugees? Local Sunni people? Obviously there will be some. Perhaps many but I think you might be mischaracterizing what's going on here. Where do you think most of those recruits were born?

Why don't you read the Al Jazeera article i have enclosed and judge for yourself, but the fact that Hamas doesn't want to give a rest and keep fighting no matter how many or who will die in the process only comes to show that the only way to deal with them is to wipe them out the face or the earth for once and for all...

[ozimoron]

18 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

Every sovereign nation has the right to define their requirements for citizenship whether the rules are racist or not.  Why would anyone want to apply for citizenship to country where they are not welcome?

 

 

They don't want to apply for citizenship. They have it by birthright.

[ozimoron]

17 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Why don't you read the Al Jazeera article i have enclosed and judge for yourself, but the fact that Hamas doesn't want to give a rest and keep fighting no matter how many or who will die in the process only comes to show that the only way to deal with them is to wipe them out the face or the earth for once and for all...

 

The same could be said for Israel.

[herfiehandbag]

On 12/15/2023 at 10:36 AM, Tropicalevo said:

Sad that the Independent is not what it says it is.

It's not even a newspaper any more!

It only maintained it's "independence" during its early years (1987 to1993) whilst Andreas Whittam Smith was the editor. After him it morphed into a more pompous version of the Guardian!

[Screaming]

A recent poll has been taken and 72 percent of Palestinians support Hamas.  So it seems that these so called 7000 children were killed by the actions of their parents. It seems the Palestinians really do not care about the lives of their children.

[Morch]

45 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

They don't want to apply for citizenship. They have it by birthright.

 

Nope.

That's your opinion.

[Morch]

45 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The same could be said for Israel.

 

It can be said, but it would be wrong.

Israel does have an opposition, a pro-peace camp, and a 20% Arab minority.

None of them are into what you allege.

 

[Hawaiian]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Them Freudian slips....Thanks.

 

You clumsily tried to turn my argument against my, and failed. As usual.

 

I did not and do not 'ignore the plight' as you claimed - that's another lie from your lie factory.

I actually addressed the issue of their future.

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

They don't want to apply for citizenship. They have it by birthright.

The Jews or the Palestinians? 

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Screaming said:

A recent poll has been taken and 72 percent of Palestinians support Hamas.  So it seems that these so called 7000 children were killed by the actions of their parents. It seems the Palestinians really do not care about the lives of their children.

 

Or that the rise in support is the product of them children being killed.

Whatever.

 

The point about this 'support' is that people tend to interpret it according to current events and their own agenda.

The question is whether it will persist, and whether it will be translated to something more.

I doubt both.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

They don't want to apply for citizenship. They have it by birthright.

DELETED

[Bkk Brian]

27 minutes ago, Screaming said:

A recent poll has been taken and 72 percent of Palestinians support Hamas.  So it seems that these so called 7000 children were killed by the actions of their parents. It seems the Palestinians really do not care about the lives of their children.

Although much lower in Gaza

 

[Hawaiian]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

LIAR!

The Aliyah Process: Step by Step Overview - Nefesh B'Nefesh (nbn.org.il)

I actually know something about this.

My sister strongly considered it.

It's a big deal, a long process, and many move there and fail.

As I'm into researching expat options (I really wouldn't want to move to Israel), I researched this myself.

I'm one case. Two Jewish parents, two Jewish grandparents, etc. and I also found it would not have been anything close to instant.

Again, if you don't know what you're talking about -- STOP LYING. 

Partly why I asked "Jewish or Palestinian."  I am confused since he jumps all over the page.  Not sure if it is intentional or  another one of his Freudian slips.

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

Partly why I asked "Jewish or Palestinian."  I am confused since he jumps all over the page.  Not sure if it is intentional or  another one of his Freudian slips.

He meant "Palestinian" Arabs. I got that wrong at first so deleted my post.

Anyway, he's an EXTREMIST anti-Zionist River to the Sea type.

Israel will NEVER allow right of return for Arabs en masse.

That means the end of Israel. Of course that's what the Jew haters and Israel demonizers want. 

Do you think they're fooling anyone if they deny that? 

There's another reason for never allowing that. The numbers that left during the "Nakba" by force or freely are debatable. I think the range is about 400-700K.

Not to mention but I will a significant percentage of those Arabs were MIGRANTS from other Arab countries who moved to the Mandate for economic opportunity -- so in no way really "Palestinian" in the first place.

Now "Palestinian" Arabs are several millions and would overwhelm Israeli Jews.

Some genocide, huh? 

 

To add, of course some much more limited return and qualified compensation could possibly be part of a negotiated two state deal, but full Arab right of return -- impossible for Israel to do. 

[thaibeachlovers]

35 minutes ago, Screaming said:

A recent poll has been taken and 72 percent of Palestinians support Hamas.  So it seems that these so called 7000 children were killed by the actions of their parents. It seems the Palestinians really do not care about the lives of their children.

That's the most confused post I've seen in a long time.

 

You appear to be saying that because lots of Palestinian support ( note support, not active fighters as 72 % would include many thousands of women ) Hamas, their children have to be blown to bits.

 

IMO that's a bizarre way of saying it's OK to kill 7,000 children, and were they all children of Hamas supporters, as the israelis can determine from way up in the sky which children have Hamas supporting parents, or were they also children of the 28% that don't support Hamas?

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's the most confused post I've seen in a long time.

 

You appear to be saying that because lots of Palestinian support ( note support, not active fighters as 72 % would include many thousands of women ) Hamas, their children have to be blown to bits.

 

IMO that's a bizarre way of saying it's OK to kill 7,000 children, and were they all children of Hamas supporters, as the israelis can determine from way up in the sky which children have Hamas supporting parents, or were they also children of the 28% that don't support Hamas?

Google -- human shields.

 

Next ...

[simple1]

19 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Matter of opinion how? Regarding what or which part? Not sure what you meant. You've asked why they do/don't do this/that. I provided what I think is the answer.

 

As for 'justified' - I'm not sure how these things are decided, or how posters imagine they are decided. There is a lot of such comments about, but again, less in the way of realistic, viable alternatives offered. I also see very little acknowledgment from those opposing Israel that Hamas bears in responsibility on three related counts - (a) that the war is on, (b) that the war drags on, and (c) the civilian death toll. Making the moral argument something that is solely to do with Israel is not something I agree with.

 

No idea how long Israel will be 'allowed' to go on (or on the other hand, if it will be stopped), but IDF comments I read talk about much longer than a couple of months. This goes back to something I commented on early on - that given ample time, it is possible to root out Hamas and make it a minor threat. Whether this is realistic (in terms of political pressure) is another thing.

 

I do agree that there is an issue with the end-game not being clearly defined. Not even with regard to the 'destroy Hamas' thing (several comments on that, with variations), the future of the Gaza Strip after the war, and Israel's relations with the Palestinians. This seems mostly down to domestic politics in Israel, and Netanyahu already hedging in preparation for an election campaign. Truth is nobody got good answers to any of these things.

 

As a clarification, the context of my use of 'opinion": a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. Of course Hamas are responsible for this current war, but some of the statements coming out of the mouths of some Israeli politicians can only be described as equally evil. There is no point for any further response from me; I have no solution, just revulsion for the actions and words of both parties. One hopes for some great soul at some point in the future to bring Peace.

[Jingthing]

Just now, simple1 said:

 

As a clarification, the context of my use of 'opinion": a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. Of course Hamas are responsible for this current war, but some of the statements coming out of the mouths of some Israeli politicians can only be described as equally evil. There is no point for any further response from me; I have no solution, just revulsion for the actions and words of both parties. One hopes for some great soul at some point in the future to bring Peace.

Agreed that there is no even close to good solution that is visible now. There wasn't really before October 7, but now it's much much worse. I don't usually agree with Mearsheimer (especially on Russia-Ukraine) but he recently said the same thing -- NO ANSWER. 

[Hawaiian]

16 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

He meant "Palestinian" Arabs. I got that wrong at first so deleted my post.

Anyway, he's an EXTREMIST anti-Zionist River to the Sea type.

Israel will NEVER allow right of return for Arabs en masse.

That means the end of Israel. Of course that's what the Jew haters and Israel demonizers want. 

Do you think they're fooling anyone if they deny that? 

There's another reason for never allowing that. The numbers that left during the "Nakba" by force or freely are debatable. I think the range is about 400-700K.

Not to mention but I will a significant percentage of those Arabs were MIGRANTS from other Arab countries who moved to the Mandate for economic opportunity -- so in no way really "Palestinian" in the first place.

Now "Palestinian" Arabs are several millions and would overwhelm Israeli Jews.

Some genocide, huh? 

 

To add, of course some much more limited return and qualified compensation could possibly be part of a negotiated two state deal, but full Arab right of return -- impossible for Israel to do. 

If I get this right, he is saying the "Palestinian" Arabs are citizens of Israel by birthright?  Oh, isn't Israel a sovereign nation that makes the rules regarding Israeli citizenship.  Like you say, that will never happen.

Perhaps our Australian friend could convince his sovereign nation to invite the several million "refugees" to resettle in the country.  Lots of room there and I'm sure his countrymen would welcome them with open arms.  I understand there aren't many racists living there.  That would atone for the theft of aboriginal lands.

 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

If I get this right, he is saying the "Palestinian" Arabs are citizens of Israel by birthright?  Oh, isn't Israel a sovereign nation that makes the rules regarding Israeli citizenship.  Like you say, that will never happen.

Perhaps our Australian friend could convince his sovereign nation to invite the several million "refugees" to resettle in the country.  Lots of room there and I'm sure his countrymen would welcome them with open arms.  I understand there aren't many racists living there.  That would atone for the theft of aboriginal lands.

 

Look the pain of the Nakba was very real in the 1940s but the Arabs could have has their state back then but attacked the Jews instead.

I put the blame for the refugee status of Palestinian Arabs after several generations on them! 

Their leadership and the greater Arab world had several opportunities over the decades to help their people live in peace and prosperity but instead they continue to fetishize rusty old jumbo keys to non existent houses.

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

As a clarification, the context of my use of 'opinion": a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. Of course Hamas are responsible for this current war, but some of the statements coming out of the mouths of some Israeli politicians can only be described as equally evil. There is no point for any further response from me; I have no solution, just revulsion for the actions and words of both parties. One hopes for some great soul at some point in the future to bring Peace.

 

I agree that there are vile comments, or at the very least 'unhelpful' ones coming from Israeli politicians (mostly right wing). And sure, they are doing their best to exploit the situation in order to further their agenda. Not denying that there's a backdrop to this as well.

 

As said on many posts on this forum - both sides have a long lasting leadership crisis, and both display a split society. This makes it easy for extreme views to be promoted, and harder for moderate ones to gain purchase. Looking at the potential replacements, not a whole lot of hope things will improve on this score (but maybe not get worse, which is something). Internationally as well, by the way - no one of the caliber required to force or pull this through.

 

What this implies is that the level in which things are addressed is the operational, middle management level, technical - whatever term fits. Bigger issues will not (and maybe, cannot) be addressed. The rhetoric either repeats on loop, or gets more extreme, doing it's bit for the scene. If it wasn't for the extreme religious elements in both sides, I'd say leave them to it, and they'll tire and sort it out eventually. But religion is a powerful motivator, so leaving them to it can have even worse consequences.

 

I think everyone knows the score, what ought to be done, what can and cannot be negotiated, and all the rest.

[Hawaiian]

37 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Look the pain of the Nakba was very real in the 1940s but the Arabs could have has their state back then but attacked the Jews instead.

I put the blame for the refugee status of Palestinian Arabs after several generations on them! 

Their leadership and the greater Arab world had several opportunities over the decades to help their people live in peace and prosperity but instead they continue to fetishize rusty old jumbo keys to non existent houses.

Hamas and it's supporters have been made a stooge of Iran.  It's the choice they made.  None of their Arab neighbors want them.  Jordan kicked them out and Egypt shut down the Sinai.  Why did Hamas squander millions in aid from the U.N. and other charitable organizations to fortify Gaza  instead of spending the money to better the lives of the people?  Again, it's the choice they made.  Now they are paying dearly for bad choices.