The Children of Gaza = More than 7000 Killed.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

No person here denies any aspect of October 7, including that it was an abhorrent terror attack, Get over yourself and your attacks on anyone who criticizes Israel.

 

@ozimoron

 

You admit to not fully reading these topics, and yet you don't seem to have any issues making such statements.

That's about the size of it.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

An Israeli official said that. How credible is that? The evidence I posted says otherwise. His own military tried to stop him.

 

@ozimoron

 

You're fine with quoting Israeli officials when it suits your agenda.

[coolcarer]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes cynical deflection that smells of another variation of October 7 denialism.

There’s a lot about. All started with Hamas claiming they never killed any civilians on Oct 7th despite their own video footage and evidence. The trolls soon took that onboard and were spreading all sorts of sick conspiracy theories on social media including on this forum on the first of these topics.

[Jeff the Chef]

3 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

So are you saying that the US economy does/doesn't benefit from these monies?

 

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

No.

And this have little to do with what was commented on earlier.

 

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

You posted

 

 

The answer was No. As in, it's not what I'm saying.

 

This has nothing much to do with the topic or even the preceding comments.

 

 

All I'm looking for is a straight answer to where $3.3billion a year plus an additional $14.3billion if approved goes.

[Wobblybob]

12 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

No person here denies any aspect of October 7, including that it was an abhorrent terror attack, Get over yourself and your attacks on anyone who criticizes Israel.

You may not have denied it but you stated that Israel deserved it, which was a vile comment to make! 

 

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

There’s a lot about. All started with Hamas claiming they never killed any civilians on Oct 7th despite their own video footage and evidence. The trolls soon took that onboard and were spreading all sorts of sick conspiracy theories on social media including on this forum on the first of these topics.

 

Nobody on this forum ever claimed Hamas didn't kill and torture 1,200 civilians. Nobody here took anything onboard about Hamas which differed from the truth. We all saw the video footage and the news reports.

[metisdead]

Some posts contravening our Community Standards have been removed.

[coolcarer]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Nobody on this forum ever claimed Hamas didn't kill and torture 1,200 civilians. Nobody here took anything onboard about Hamas which differed from the truth. We all saw the video footage and the news reports.

Wrong. I never saw you on the first topic which was started on Oct 7th and there were a few regulars doing exactly that. The mods put paid to most of the extremely offensive posts however.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

 

 

 

All I'm looking for is a straight answer to where $3.3billion a year plus an additional $14.3billion if approved goes.

 

No, you're trolling.

The answer was provided. Could in fact be figured out from the links you put up. Not to mention being pretty much common knowledge.

You act like you think you 'got something', you don't.

 

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Nobody on this forum ever claimed Hamas didn't kill and torture 1,200 civilians. Nobody here took anything onboard about Hamas which differed from the truth. We all saw the video footage and the news reports.

 

@ozimoron

 

You don't read these topics. You said so yourself. So how would you know?

Of course there were such comments, and naturally they ain't around no more.

People denied pretty much anything at one step or another.

Now you're denying that nobody ever denied....

 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No, you're trolling.

The answer was provided. Could in fact be figured out from the links you put up. Not to mention being pretty much common knowledge.

You act like you think you 'got something', you don't.

 

Rubbish, simple question,

"All I'm looking for is a straight answer to where $3.3billion a year plus an additional $14.3billion if approved goes."?

If you can't/won't answer say so, but where's the honesty.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Rubbish, simple question,

"All I'm looking for is a straight answer to where $3.3billion a year plus an additional $14.3billion if approved goes."?

If you can't/won't answer say so, but where's the honesty.

 

It was already answered. It's common knowledge. Read the links you put up.

It's not what the topic is about.

 

[Nick Carter icp]

35 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

 

 

 

All I'm looking for is a straight answer to where $3.3billion a year plus an additional $14.3billion if approved goes.

 

   Why don't you do a bit to research to answer your own question ?

Can easy find the answer by googling it 

[Jeff the Chef]

25 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

It was already answered. It's common knowledge. Read the links you put up.

It's not what the topic is about.

 

If I'd seen the answer I wouldn't of asked the question.

Common knowledge to you maybe.

I read both links I put up, never saw anything in plain English.

So whoever finances this conflict has nothing to do with this topic, got you.

 

[Jeff the Chef]

25 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Why don't you do a bit to research to answer your own question ?

Can easy find the answer by googling it 

Cheers,

 

As of October 2023, the United States has 599 active Foreign Military Sales (FMS) cases, valued at $23.8 billion, with Israel.  FMS cases notified to Congress are listed here; priority initiatives include: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft; CH-53K Heavy Lift Helicopters; KC-46A Aerial Refueling Tankers; and precision-guided munitions.

From FY 2018 through FY 2022, the U.S. has also authorized the permanent export of over $5.7billion in defense articles to Israel via the Direct Commercial Sales (DCS) process.  The top categories of DCS to Israel were  XIX-Toxicological Agents, Including Chemical Agents, Biological Agents, and Associated Equipment (this includes detection equipment ((f)), vaccines ((g)-(h)) and modeling software ((i)); IV- Launch Vehicles, Guided Missiles, Ballistic Missiles, Rockets, Torpedoes, Bombs, and Mines; and VII- Aircraft.

 

https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-israel/#:~:text=Since its founding in 1948,joint exercises%2C and helping Israel

[Nick Carter icp]

8 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Cheers,

 

As of October 2023, the United States has 599 active Foreign Military Sales (FMS) cases, valued at $23.8 billion, with Israel.  FMS cases notified to Congress are listed here; priority initiatives include: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft; CH-53K Heavy Lift Helicopters; KC-46A Aerial Refueling Tankers; and precision-guided munitions.

From FY 2018 through FY 2022, the U.S. has also authorized the permanent export of over $5.7billion in defense articles to Israel via the Direct Commercial Sales (DCS) process.  The top categories of DCS to Israel were  XIX-Toxicological Agents, Including Chemical Agents, Biological Agents, and Associated Equipment (this includes detection equipment ((f)), vaccines ((g)-(h)) and modeling software ((i)); IV- Launch Vehicles, Guided Missiles, Ballistic Missiles, Rockets, Torpedoes, Bombs, and Mines; and VII- Aircraft.

 

https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-israel/#:~:text=Since its founding in 1948,joint exercises%2C and helping Israel

 

   I wasn't asking the question , you asked the question .

So, you should reply to your own post where you asked the question 

[Jeff the Chef]

5 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   I wasn't asking the question , you asked the question .

So, you should reply to your own post where you asked the question 

Sorry I was thanking you with a "Cheers" for putting me on to Google to answer the question, crying out loud you can't do anything on here without upsetting someone.

[Nick Carter icp]

39 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Sorry I was thanking you with a "Cheers" for putting me on to Google to answer the question, crying out loud you can't do anything on here without upsetting someone.

 

   In in future you are wondering about something you can just go and do a google search without involving me or ASEANNOW in the equation 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Nick Carter icp

[Jingthing]

16 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Again the Palestinians don't want a separate state. They want River to the Sea. 

Two state solution? It's a nice thought but it's wishful thinking.

 

A two-state solution is the West’s latest luxury belief (msn.com)

Quote

 

Who still has the luxury of believing in the two-state solution? Not the people whose families were slaughtered on October 7, nor parents with sons on the frontlines. To many of them, a Palestinian state must feel like a bizarre response to the worst atrocity in Israel’s history. But in London and Washington, the concept is back in fashion.

 

It may have been dead in the water for more than twenty years, but politicians are out of ideas. For everyone else, supporting the notion is a way of winning themselves a halo. It is designed to advertise that they are profoundly even-handed. It is, in other words, a luxury belief.

 

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said:

If I'd seen the answer I wouldn't of asked the question.

Common knowledge to you maybe.

I read both links I put up, never saw anything in plain English.

So whoever finances this conflict has nothing to do with this topic, got you.

 

 

Nah, this was discussed on these topics more than once. Always someone from 'your' side bringing it up like it's some ace card.

It isn't.

 

It got nothing to do with what was posted earlier, it's just you trying to run interference, is all.

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Two state solution? It's a nice thought but it's wishful thinking.

 

A two-state solution is the West’s latest luxury belief (msn.com)

 

 

I think that's bad column.

 

For starters, it co-opts the views of many Israelis, including those who were directly effected on 7/10.

In reality, many of these people are staunch pro-peace types, anti-government policy and so on.

I don't think that there are signs indicating that their politics went through a change resembling the author's views.

 

It is also misleading to describe Israel as previously being much invested in efforts toward a two-state solution.

History shows otherwise - and that's without ignoring the main culprit to things dragging on, the Palestinian leadership.

 

The trouble with a two-state solution is that it require a level of maturity both sides are lacking or a leadership able and willing to push this through.

 

It's not a magic solution.

It's not an easy solution.

It's just that the other options are worse.

[richard_smith237]

Its probably been discussed and mentioned on the 28 pages of this thread so far... 

 

IF Hamas had not executed its October 7th Massacre and hidden behind civilians how many children would have died ?

 

The responsibility for vast majority of deaths lies with a terrorist organisation that forced a nation into a response.

 

Has Israels response been excessive?, I would argue yes it has - but that is a harsh reality of war, and we can criticise from the comfort of an armchair, but the people of Israel and those in the Israeli kibbutz need to live in safety and while Hamas exist, Israeli's are clearly not safe. 

 

Conversely, without Hamas and other terrorist organisations pushing for the eradication of Israel there may be the possibility of peace and a home, in the land once shared by all....  (in 1000 BC the lands known as the 12 tribes of Israel).

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

It's not a magic solution.

It's not an easy solution.

It's just that the other options are worse.

 

Just like Democracy...    ".......the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”  [Chruchill]....

 

Nothing is perfect...  there are just 'imperfect solutions' and Hamas' solution of the eradication of Israel is not any solution at all, its terrorism. 

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I think that's bad column.

 

For starters, it co-opts the views of many Israelis, including those who were directly effected on 7/10.

In reality, many of these people are staunch pro-peace types, anti-government policy and so on.

I don't think that there are signs indicating that their politics went through a change resembling the author's views.

 

It is also misleading to describe Israel as previously being much invested in efforts toward a two-state solution.

History shows otherwise - and that's without ignoring the main culprit to things dragging on, the Palestinian leadership.

 

The trouble with a two-state solution is that it require a level of maturity both sides are lacking or a leadership able and willing to push this through.

 

It's not a magic solution.

It's not an easy solution.

It's just that the other options are worse.

I agree with your critique but I also agree with its conclusions.

 

I'm going to make a safe prediction.

It may indeed be the best of bad options but it still isn't going to happen.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Jingthing

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Just like Democracy...    ".......the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”  [Chruchill]....

 

Nothing is perfect...  there are just 'imperfect solutions' and Hamas' solution of the eradication of Israel is not any solution at all, its terrorism. 

 

That's taking things out of context.

 

My comment was not about two-state solution vs. Hamas.

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

That's taking things out of context.

 

My comment was not about two-state solution vs. Hamas.

 

Fair enough - I haven't time to read all the thread... but wanted to add the comment about 'there is no perfect solution' there is just a least bad solution (which is what I thought I understood your comment to be about).

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by richard_smith237

[Hawaiian]

1 hour ago, Hawaiian said:

"Harsh reality of war"  You mean like this?

 

Correction to link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50mRjYB7f90

Edited December 24, 2023 by Hawaiian
correct link

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Has Israels response been excessive?, I would argue yes it has - but that is a harsh reality of war,

Till the ground invasion started it was not a war. It was just a massacre of innocents from high above in complete safety.

A "war" implies 2 sides that are both armed and roughly proportional.

I the case of israel, planes, tanks, artillery etc.

On the side of Hamas, fighters with light weapons and RPGs.

However, seems Hamas is not a pushover in any sense and is going to take more israeli lives in Gaza before they are done.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Conversely, without Hamas and other terrorist organisations pushing for the eradication of Israel there may be the possibility of peace and a home, in the land once shared by all....  (in 1000 BC the lands known as the 12 tribes of Israel).

I find that ludicrous. From the Nakba till the bombing of Gaza today, israeli attitude to Palestinians has been one of oppression, land theft and collective punishment, all the while being protected by the colluding US.

If they hadn't been busily stealing Palestinian land in the West Bank since 1967, there might have been something for your post, but there is almost nothing left of Palestinian land now.

I suppose all the posters that think israel has a right to the land would be OK if a more powerful neighbour, immune from the police, came and kicked them out of the homes their families had lived in for generations.

 

Prior to 1948, Palestinians and Jews lived in the same area without killing each other, but the zionists wanted it all for themselves, hence the Nakba.

 

The Palestinian resistance came into being because of the israeli oppression, and did not cause the oppression, IMO.

[Hawaiian]

9 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Just like Democracy...    ".......the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”  [Chruchill]....

 

Nothing is perfect...  there are just 'imperfect solutions' and Hamas' solution of the eradication of Israel is not any solution at all, its terrorism. 

Of course, no solution is ever perfect. In this case, it is going to take a lot of pain and suffering before both sides will even contemplate or attempt a workable solution. 

There has been much argument about a two-state solution, as to who refused to negotiate and who said "never going to happen" and who said "maybe."  If Israel and the Palestinians continue to dwell on the past no progress will ever be made. Notice I said Palestinians and not Hamas.  To be realistic, Hamas or what may be left of it, is inflexible and will not be supported by the majority of Palestinians.  Yes, not easy to forget the atrocities from the past, but once the hostilities are over it's time to move forward.

If negotiations are to be considered, the big question is who will represent the Palestinians.  As for the other side, Netanyahu could be replaced by a moderate.

Lot of "ifs" to contend with.