The Children of Gaza = More than 7000 Killed.

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Indeed, I was trained in the RAF cadets at age 13 and never became a terrorist.

Only an radical extremist would try to justify the deaths of thousands of children.

The RAF is not Hamas 

[Neeranam]

Watching Sky News and it is appalling that IDF can kill 3 unarmed people in civilian clothes. They are obviously firing at anyone they see, with no reason.

The chances of this being in crossfire are impossible.

This is what ethnic cleansing is. Even Sleepy Joe Biden says the Israelis are bombing indiscrimently, which is incredible itself. He must know for sure there are war cries before publicly stating the country they are sponsoring are doing this.

The death toll continues...Israel will be paying for this for many decades in the future...

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The RAF is not Hamas 

 

Laughing won't help your claim that these kids are being trained to be terrorists. The claim is risible, not his response. You're just trying to dehumanize the enemy with baseless claims like this. If you weren't you'd prove it. Your claim to common sense is that Hamas are terrorists, all of them. Another view of common sense is that this is generic military training appropriate to the environment they live in.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Laughing won't help your claim that these kids are being trained to be terrorists. The claim is risible, not his response. You're just trying to dehumanize the enemy with baseless claims like this.

You seem to think I have to claim, I've provided the evidence, your just trolling

[ozimoron]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

You seem to think I have to claim, I've provided the evidence, your just trolling

 

You've provided a video with an explicit baseless accusation. Nothing more.

[Neeranam]

I find it strange that the death of 3 israeli civilians is all over the news yet innocent Gazan children have been dying at 4.5 kids every hour for over 2 months and it is not news every day.  Why?

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

You've provided a video with an explicit baseless accusation. Nothing more.

I've provided 3 credible videos and a lengthy article, your in denial and trolling

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

I find it strange that the death of 3 israeli civilians is all over the news yet innocent Gazan children have been dying at 4.5 kids every hour for over 2 months and it is not news every day.  Why?

 

   Things that happen regularly are not newsworthy stories 

[Nick Carter icp]

16 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Yes. So is killing over 5,000 children. Which of these war crimes is more heinous?

 

   You don't understand and its pointless explaining anything to you, because you still wont understand 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I've provided 3 credible videos and a lengthy article, your in denial and trolling

 

Does the article prove that those 3 videos were training kids to be terrorists? Or is your definition of a terrorist a muslim kid with a rock? Or a gun?

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   You don't understand and its pointless explaining anything to you, because you still wont understand 

 

The question was simple. Of the two war crimes quoted, which one is worse? It shouldn't be this hard, really.

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The question was simple. Of the two war crimes quoted, which one is worse? It shouldn't be this hard, really.

 

   Using Child soldiers is a war crime, children getting killed in a war isn't a war crime 

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Does the article prove that those 3 videos were training kids to be terrorists? Or is your definition of a terrorist a muslim kid with a rock? Or a gun?

What are you talking about, the article is about the written curriculum not physical. The rest of your post is just you trolling yet again

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

What are you talking about, the article is about the written curriculum not physical. The rest of your post is just you trolling yet again

 

When I was a kid, newsagents openly sold comic books which depicted Japanese and German soldiers as barbaric demons. I take a very skeptical view of this sort of trash. As I said, it in no way justifies the Israeli retaliation to an action that these kids had nothing to do with. This is pure deflection to make the other side look bad (or worse) in the face of a much, much larger atrocity. Literally pointing at the mouse in the corner and ignoring the elephant standing in the middle of the room.

 

How many of those kids do you think are now dead?

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

When I was a kid, newsagents openly sold comic books which depicted Japanese and German soldiers as barbaric demons. I take a very skeptical view of this sort of trash. As I said, it in no way justifies the Israeli retaliation to an action that these kids had nothing to do with. This is pure deflection to make the other side look bad (or worse) in the face of a much, much larger atrocity. Literally pointing at the mouse in the corner and ignoring the elephant standing in the middle of the room.

 

How many of those kids do you think are now dead?

Couldn't care less about your childhood, this was happening till up to Oct 7th in Gaza.

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

When I was a kid, newsagents openly sold comic books which depicted Japanese and German soldiers as barbaric demons.

 

 

    As they committed horrendous atrocities in WW2 over a number of years killing millions , atrocities that Hamas would be proud of , it was an accurate depiction  

[Fat is a type of crazy]

6 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

Not their not, they're incisive and loaded accusations designed to prevent any countering of the false propositions that each one represents. We have the "I'm not racist because my friend is black" argument as a start. But the real clanger is this incisive proposition.

 

"If they label things genocide that aren't genocide just to inflame, then they are stupid. "

 

The take away is that anybody who accuses Israel of genocide is motivated only by a desire to inflame and the accusation itself must not be debated. What about the possibility that many people will make that accusation because they believe it's true. Are they not entitled to make that argument? Are they stupid if they do? The whole list is the same loaded propaganda.

 

I tend to limit my comments to the barbarity of the Hamas attacks and whether the response has been reasonable.

 I appreciated hearing a summary of some key points from his point of view that included some broader context - Bill Maher has made some similar points.

The list pointed out that this wouldn't have happened but for the Hamas barbaric attacks but acknowledged that criticism of the subsequent response is not unjustified.

Fair point that the language of describing critics as 'stupid' or of simply inflaming the situation by using the word genocide could be seen as belittling or attempting to diminish the overall arguments that Israel has gone too far in response.  I tend to concur with the sentiment though that Israel are not deliberately killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group - so genocide is not the correct term for what it is worth. 

Not calling it genocide, in my opinion, does not understate the importance of the final point - that the response has been too indiscriminate and the killing of civilians clearly unacceptable. Justifications such as that they have tunnels, and use their people as shields, surely does not give Israel carte blanche to kill somewhat indiscriminately and blame Hamas for the outcome. 

[Hawaiian]

On 12/14/2023 at 7:42 PM, Hanaguma said:

Encroach? Hardly. Israel was invaded constantly. They took territory to stay safe. You forget that five countries invaded Israel in 1948 and tried to wage a war of genocide? Of course the losers lost territory. That is the way of the world. Lose a war, lose land. Germany lost a lot of land after WW2, but you dont see ex residents of Prussia sitting around complaining. 

      You don't hear of shelling coming from the Golan Heights anymore.  Hmmm, I wonder why?

[Hawaiian]

2 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I tend to limit my comments to the barbarity of the Hamas attacks and whether the response has been reasonable.

 I appreciated hearing a summary of some key points from his point of view that included some broader context - Bill Maher has made some similar points.

The list pointed out that this wouldn't have happened but for the Hamas barbaric attacks but acknowledged that criticism of the subsequent response is not unjustified.

Fair point that the language of describing critics as 'stupid' or of simply inflaming the situation by using the word genocide could be seen as belittling or attempting to diminish the overall arguments that Israel has gone too far in response.  I tend to concur with the sentiment though that Israel are not deliberately killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group - so genocide is not the correct term for what it is worth. 

Not calling it genocide, in my opinion, does not understate the importance of the final point - that the response has been too indiscriminate and the killing of civilians clearly unacceptable. Justifications such as that they have tunnels, and use their people as shields, surely does not give Israel carte blanche to kill somewhat indiscriminately and blame Hamas for the outcome. 

So, exactly what do you propose the Israelis do differently?  As far as I know there is no fool proof way to stop Hamas without innocent lives being lost.  Israel is in a damned if they do and damned if they don't situation.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

3 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

So, exactly what do you propose the Israelis do differently?  As far as I know there is no fool proof way to stop Hamas without innocent lives being lost.  Israel is in a damned if they do and damned if they don't situation.

They appear to have an aim to knock out Hamas as much as possible which is understandable. I think they need to temper their ambitions of what a successful outcome might look like - and prioritise minimising casualties by attributing more worth to the lives of the non combatants - the pictures of broad devastation and the loss of life looks more and more out of proportion with the losses suffered on the Israeli side. In terms of the specific tactics to achieve this I 'll leave that to those who know more about such things. 

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

I'm sorry, a video of a dozen Palestinian kids getting military training with an unproven allegation that they are being taught to be terrorists as opposed to fighters of any other description doesn't move the needle for me. We still had air ride sirens on my school which were tested every Tuesday when I was doing my sea cadet training. I think our perceived enemies were Indonesian at the time. This is just peripheral noise and manufactured outrage to deflect from the mass killings of Palestinian civilians by indiscriminant bombing.

As a school boy I was in school cadets ( compulsory ) which gave us military training, such as handling a rifle ( 303 back then ) and drill. All preparing us for the next war.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

I'm sorry, a video of a dozen Palestinian kids getting military training with an unproven allegation that they are being taught to be terrorists as opposed to fighters of any other description doesn't move the needle for me. We still had air ride sirens on my school which were tested every Tuesday when I was doing my sea cadet training. I think our perceived enemies were Indonesian at the time. This is just peripheral noise and manufactured outrage to deflect from the mass killings of Palestinian civilians by indiscriminant bombing.

You have nothing to apologise for. IMO it's just another invented reason to justify killing Palestinian children, for which there is not, and never will be, justification.

[Hawaiian]

31 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

They appear to have an aim to knock out Hamas as much as possible which is understandable. I think they need to temper their ambitions of what a successful outcome might look like - and prioritise minimising casualties by attributing more worth to the lives of the non combatants - the pictures of broad devastation and the loss of life looks more and more out of proportion with the losses suffered on the Israeli side. In terms of the specific tactics to achieve this I 'll leave that to those who know more about such things. 

Good to see that you acknowledge the lack of experience. I too, have no workable answer.  The out of proportion loss of life is something the Israelis are well aware of.  From a military standpoint this is to be expected since 99% of the action is taking place on "enemy" soil.  From a political standpoint this is bad publicity.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

36 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

So, exactly what do you propose the Israelis do differently?  As far as I know there is no fool proof way to stop Hamas without innocent lives being lost.  Israel is in a damned if they do and damned if they don't situation.

For starters one doesn't drop dirty great bombs that destroy an entire building to kill one Hamas fighter, and one does NOT carry out collective punishment which is probably illegal and a crime under every law or statute ever written dealing with it.

 

The best way to deal with such is to prevent it happening in the first place, for which one would need to go back to 1967 and do things differently. As that is impossible, IMO all israelis have to look forward to for the very long future is fear of the enemy that is just waiting for any opportunity to kill them in revenge for what they have done in the past 30 or so years, what they are doing now, and what they will do in the future.

 

They should always remember that no matter how many Palestinians they kill now, millions live outside Palestine where israel can't touch them, and for every Palestinian child they kill, a dozen more want to take revenge for them.

Never forget, never forgive.

[Bkk Brian]

20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As a school boy I was in school cadets ( compulsory ) which gave us military training, such as handling a rifle ( 303 back then ) and drill. All preparing us for the next war.

Did they also teach you how to take Israeli hostages and bring them back to Gaza in your school cadets? All preparing you the next terror attack to carry out?

[Hawaiian]

The back and forth argument about the amount of children being killed and war crimes involving children is really nonsensical from my point of view.  All of these deaths are tragic, young and old, Jew or Palestinian, but difficult to avoid when guns and bullets are used to settle grudges and disputes.

For you nitpickers, "guns and bullets" is an expression that means a whole lot more.

[thaibeachlovers]

36 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

They appear to have an aim to knock out Hamas as much as possible which is understandable. I think they need to temper their ambitions of what a successful outcome might look like - and prioritise minimising casualties by attributing more worth to the lives of the non combatants - the pictures of broad devastation and the loss of life looks more and more out of proportion with the losses suffered on the Israeli side. In terms of the specific tactics to achieve this I 'll leave that to those who know more about such things. 

I think they need to temper their ambitions of what a successful outcome might look like.

 

Do they even know themselves, or are they just making it up as they go along? We know what happens when they don't get it right, as the Americans found out in Iraq, and they lost more troops after the "victory" than during the war.

IMO the israelis thought they could drive them into Egypt never to return, but Sisi put the kibosh on that plan, and quite sensibly too. He knows what will happen if there is a huge refugee camp right next to the israeli border.

 

I think I know what they want to do now, given their actions to destroy water sources and deny food and medicine, but I'm not going to say on here what that is.

 

Whatever they thought they could do, will be negated by the willing volunteers for the resistance from most of the survivors of Gaza.

Israel will be in perpetual war for generations- is that what they really want?

Like it says in the Bible, sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.

[Hawaiian]

25 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

For starters one doesn't drop dirty great bombs that destroy an entire building to kill one Hamas fighter, and one does NOT carry out collective punishment which is probably illegal and a crime under every law or statute ever written dealing with it.

 

The best way to deal with such is to prevent it happening in the first place, for which one would need to go back to 1967 and do things differently. As that is impossible, IMO all israelis have to look forward to for the very long future is fear of the enemy that is just waiting for any opportunity to kill them in revenge for what they have done in the past 30 or so years, what they are doing now, and what they will do in the future.

 

They should always remember that no matter how many Palestinians they kill now, millions live outside Palestine where israel can't touch them, and for every Palestinian child they kill, a dozen more want to take revenge for them.

Never forget, never forgive.

The line from Pete Seegers "Where Have All the Flowers Gone"  always reminds me "When will they ever learn."

[Hawaiian]

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I think they need to temper their ambitions of what a successful outcome might look like.

 

Do they even know themselves, or are they just making it up as they go along? We know what happens when they don't get it right, as the Americans found out in Iraq, and they lost more troops after the "victory" than during the war.

IMO the israelis thought they could drive them into Egypt never to return, but Sisi put the kibosh on that plan, and quite sensibly too. He knows what will happen if there is a huge refugee camp right next to the israeli border.

 

I think I know what they want to do now, given their actions to destroy water sources and deny food and medicine, but I'm not going to say on here what that is.

 

Whatever they thought they could do, will be negated by the willing volunteers for the resistance from most of the survivors of Gaza.

Israel will be in perpetual war for generations- is that what they really want?

Like it says in the Bible, sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.

Big difference here.  America wasn't fighting for their survival.  Israel is.  This is why Israel is determined to destroy Hamas.  Have you noticed that Egypt and Jordan are keeping a low profile.  Even Saudi Arabia has only complained in a low key fashion.  Turkey, on the other hand, has moved from a secular government to a religion oriented one.  It's Erdogan's strategy to remain in power.  Turkey, not long ago, was quite pro-West and pro-Israel.  Autocratic Erdogan has reversed that.

As long as the mullahs control Iran there will be turmoil in the Middle East.  Eventually, they will lose their grip on the country and much of funding of terrorists in the region will dry up.  When that happens, the who Middle East will benefit, including Israel.  That day cannot come too soon.

 

[Hawaiian]

32 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I think they need to temper their ambitions of what a successful outcome might look like.

 

Do they even know themselves, or are they just making it up as they go along? We know what happens when they don't get it right, as the Americans found out in Iraq, and they lost more troops after the "victory" than during the war.

IMO the israelis thought they could drive them into Egypt never to return, but Sisi put the kibosh on that plan, and quite sensibly too. He knows what will happen if there is a huge refugee camp right next to the israeli border.

 

I think I know what they want to do now, given their actions to destroy water sources and deny food and medicine, but I'm not going to say on here what that is.

 

Whatever they thought they could do, will be negated by the willing volunteers for the resistance from most of the survivors of Gaza.

Israel will be in perpetual war for generations- is that what they really want?

Like it says in the Bible, sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.

The support in Gaza for Hamas is beginning to erode.  Maybe pro-Israeli propaganda, but I have recently seen videos of Gazans complaining about Hamas, some even going as far as claiming Hamas has destroyed Gaza.  One video showed a very successful Palestinian business in the West Bank who attributed his success to working with Israel and not fighting them.  In fact, he even has a second home in Israel proper.  Are these people traitors to Hamas?

Depends which side you are on.

If Hamas had used all of their foreign aid for improving the water and sewer systems and other infrastructure instead of pouring millions into constructing the tunnel system there might not be such widespread of hate of Israel.  A hungry population is a dangerous population. It might have given Israel more of an incentive to put more effort into creating a two-state solution.