Provisional Decision Today: ICJ Weighs Emergency Measures Amid Allegations of Genocide in Gaza

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

The USA is the only country which could make Israel stop the bombing and supplying desperately needed food and medicine to the Palestinians. But Biden, and others talk and don't really do anything substantial.

Israels settlers are invading and occupying the land of the Palestine people since decades. And it seems this gets worse. And it's supported by the Israeli government and against international law. It's no surprise that Israel is constantly accused. There are good reasons for that. If they would stop the illegal settlers and if they would try to live in peace with their neighbors then a lot more people would like them and support them.

 

Hamas <> Palestine. I understand that Israel is fighting Hamas, they have good reasons for that. But it is not helpful that they ignore all the presumed innocent Palestinian civilians. Israel could fight Hamas and only Hamas. But that is not what they are doing. If they see 10 Hamas fighters surrounded by 100 Palestinian civilians they just bomb them all and don't care. With that attitude they shouldn't be surprised that many people protest against Israels government. 

 

The USA - neither government, nor public opinion - seem to share the full extent of your views. They do not ignore Hamas's role in this, they do not pretend that there's an easy way to deal with things, or that wars are clean and pretty.

 

The topic is not about them illegal settlements in the West Bank. That's just you trying for a diversion when you cannot address points or make your case.

 

Israel being accused is one thing - and some things Israel does are worthy of such condemnations. The point made was about the sheer scope of it, vs. all the other wrongs in the world. If you think that's reasonable, then guess we have very little common ground to continue this discussion.

 

Hamas is not disconnected from Palestine and Palestinians. As for how Israel could fight 'Hamas and only Hamas' - maybe you could give a clue how, its not like it's a position much expressed by actual experts on this. On the contrary, most highlight that it is very hard for things to be otherwise. Your comment about 10 Hamas and 100 Palestinian civilians is just your usual made up exaggeration, which you cannot and will not ever provide support for. Basically, you allege some 'attitude' this way, then treat it as fact. You're not even remotely honest there.

[Morch]

17 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Yes, Hamas war criminals should be punished. Not every single Palestinian including many children. 

 

Other than in your hyperbole posts, not 'every single Palestinian' is punished for Hamas's sins.

[ozimoron]

46 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

This is exactly why Israel now has to defend themselves in the ICJ over the next few months and years. No separation between Hamas and Palestinians. Discourse like this is precisely why.  

 

I was immediate beset by a vision of something of something sliding under a snake's belly.

[Nick Carter icp]

17 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Yes, Hamas war criminals should be punished. Not every single Palestinian including many children. 

 

  What can be done if Hamas hide among the civilian population ?

IDF cancel the war and go home ?

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

So many delusional posts in the one thread - truly remarkable - but understandable.  Is the Court going to put Hamas on trial for what they did, are now doing, and have been doing for decades? The UN has issued lots of 'condemnations' to Israel, but none to Hamas or Hezbolla etc.

 

Israel has had enough and is going to destroy Hamas (and its supporters). 

Hamas are deliberately hiding behnd their people - quote 'a necessary sacrifice".

Israel will ee-occupy Gaza and try to keep a firm lid on the terrorists.

The West Bank terrorists are on notice - as is all others supporting Islamic terrorists.

 

 

The UN (and various related bodies) do issue condemnations and resolutions dealing with both Hamas and the Hezbollah, but nothing on par with the amount of 'attention' Israel gets. Basically they do this either when these two groups either behave badly in a way which cannot be diplomatically ignored, or when the USA (or UK or some other semi-sensible EU country) insists on including such condemnations alongside those issued vs. Israel.

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

Israel could try to minimize civilian casualties. But that's not what they do. They call them animals and slaughter them. And then they are surprised when someone brings them in front of an internation court. 

 

Do tell how Israel could do that, and still effectively fight Hamas. Just saying things doesn't make them real (a novel concept for you, it seems). Same goes for your comment about 'animals' and 'slaughter'. You constantly make things up, use hyperbole, exaggerate, take things out of context - and treat them as facts. As for Israel being 'surprised' - again nonsense, it wasn't.

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Yes, Hamas killed innocent Israelis.

And Israel kills maybe 10 times more innocent Palestinians.

One wrong doesn't make another wrong right. 

 

Hamas did so intentionally. Israel does not.

I get it that some of you try hard to ignore this fact, or to treat it as immaterial, but it's a fact.

 

Again - all them dead Palestinians were alive on 6/10. Who was responsible for things changing a day later? Which leadership said their death were a necessary sacrifice for the cause? Which group denied them the safety it offers it's own men?

 

One wrong doesn't make another wrong right. Dealing almost exclusively with one sides' wrongs, though - and ignoring who instigated things, that's a choice.

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Exactly - if Israel wanted to they could wipe all of Gaza off the map.

 

It is logic and reason against emotions and feelings. I have found that debating with most pro-Palestinian people is like arguing with your mother-in-law about your wife. They are so 'insane' I saw people holding up "LBGTQ for Palestine" signs - when reality is that they would be killed if they had entered Gaza or West Bank. Reality and Palestinian supporters are not on the same page. 

 

Mil usually takes my side when called upon to opine....There are some unexpected positive sides to old-fashioned Chinese upbringing.

[coolcarer]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

This is exactly why Israel now has to defend themselves in the ICJ over the next few months and years. No separation between Hamas and Palestinians. Discourse like this is precisely why.  

Was that your attempt at changing the ICJ provisional measures which did not include a ceasefire because Israel can distinguish between Hamas and civilians?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Hamas did so intentionally. Israel does not.

I get it that some of you try hard to ignore this fact, or to treat it as immaterial, but it's a fact.

 

Again - all them dead Palestinians were alive on 6/10. Who was responsible for things changing a day later? Which leadership said their death were a necessary sacrifice for the cause? Which group denied them the safety it offers it's own men?

 

One wrong doesn't make another wrong right. Dealing almost exclusively with one sides' wrongs, though - and ignoring who instigated things, that's a choice.

Well said and I can hear their heads squirming while they try to comprehend how that fact against their own prejudices based on feelings. 

I heard someone say the other day what is the 'cause' of this silliness in the West about Palestinians - and what groups like Hamas have learned to harness for their cause. A lot of young and silly western people think that the 'underdog' is the good guy - they think minorities are always right and they need their help - virtue signalling amongst the young is rampant - they are always trying to save something or someone - they think it is empathy, but it is really just virtue signalling. It is easy to fool emotional people - because you dont need facts and reason - the majority of married men know this and learn how to deal with it.

[Morch]

29 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Exactly - if Israel wanted to they could wipe all of Gaza off the map.

 

It is logic and reason against emotions and feelings. I have found that debating with most pro-Palestinian people is like arguing with your mother-in-law about your wife. They are so 'insane' I saw people holding up "LBGTQ for Palestine" signs - when reality is that they would be killed if they had entered Gaza or West Bank. Reality and Palestinian supporters are not on the same page. 

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1311404-queers-for-palestine-is-apparently-a-thing/

 

[ozimoron]

9 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Was that your attempt at changing the ICJ provisional measures which did not include a ceasefire because Israel can distinguish between Hamas and civilians?

 

Apparently Israel has not hitherto been capable of distinguishing between Hamas and civilians. This is why the order was made.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1311404-queers-for-palestine-is-apparently-a-thing/

 

 

Exactly what is wrong in the West these days - and what has been growing for decades. 

Someone said some years ago that 'we need a good war' to sort all these people out.

Looking at some of the military leaders theses days (wearing dresses etc.) I think it is too late.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Apparently Israel has not hitherto been capable of distinguishing between Hamas and civilians. This is why the order was made.

 

@ozimoron

 

Apparently that's you making up stuff.

 

It's Hamas that does not distinguish between it's own men and civilians, as evident from the casualty lists they allow to be released.

That would be the same Hamas that claims all Israeli men of fighting age are 'combatants' and therefore legit targets.

 

 

[connda]

8 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

Maybe you noticed that Israel is not only killing Hamas. They kill every Palestinian including many innocent women and children. And they go on and on and on and don't stop.

But I guess you wouldn't call that a mistake - because they do it on purpose. 

I expect that whatever the outcome eventually is will set a precedent regarding how ICJ/ICC pursues genocide cases given their is now no enforcement mechanism.  Time will tell.

 

Edited January 27 by connda

[Rimmer]

Inflammatory troll post removed

[Brickleberry]

1 hour ago, coolcarer said:

Was that your attempt at changing the ICJ provisional measures which did not include a ceasefire because Israel can distinguish between Hamas and civilians?

 

No, I was stating the obvious. The ICJ measures were not even mentioned in my post.

 

Each and every person who claims that supporting the Palestinians equates to supporting terrorists is guilty of the same thing Israel is. Not separating Hamas from the Palestinians as a whole. This is why South Africa won their case, and Israel lost. Israel now has to defend itself for years to come as the case drags on in the courts.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

38 minutes ago, connda said:

A basic template for further discussions:

1. Respond to another member.
2. Tell them how stupid their opinion is.
3. Personally malign them.
4. Add pejorative or ad-hominid attack on that member.
5. Wash - Rinse - Repeat

Gawd people.  What ever happened to civil debate?   So much of these discussion are nothing but personal vitriol aimed at other members who don't share your own views.  What a freaking mess.  Honestly. 

Yes indeed. Do you have a clue what genocide really is? Saying Israel is committing genocide in Gaza is ignorant and stupid - sorry if that offends you. Israel has declared war on Hamas - the elected rulers of Gaza - and they are trying very hard not to kill any 'innocents'.  You cannot say with any credibility that they are deliberaely killing all Muslims - they are trying to kill Hamas - the military and rulers of Gaza.

 

If Hamas all walked out and surrendered, gave up all the hostages, and handed over all those that comitted the atrocities in October for trial in an independent Court (like Eqypt) - then Isreal would cease fire.

 

If Israel backs off and walks away, Hamas will continue doing as it has for decades. Indoctrinate more terrorists and pursue their one and only goal through terrorism - the death of all Jews in Israel. 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

No, I was stating the obvious. The ICJ measures were not even mentioned in my post.

 

Each and every person who claims that supporting the Palestinians equates to supporting terrorists is guilty of the same thing Israel is. Not separating Hamas from the Palestinians as a whole. This is why South Africa won their case, and Israel lost. Israel now has to defend itself for years to come as the case drags on in the courts.

 

Yawn.

You commented on a topic dealing with the provisional decision of the ICJ.

You  responded to a post dealing with the outcome.

You deflect.

 

No, making claims on the internet is not being 'guilty of the same', that's just you with the trademark hyperbole nonsense.

 

Hamas is a Palestinian organization, it's members are Palestinians. It's supporters are Palestinians as well. You and others try hard to make into some entity which got nothing to do with the Palestinians. Try harder.

 

As for 'not separating' Hamas from the Palestinians - tell that to Hamas. Hamas does not apply this separation when it comes to casualty figures. Hamas does not apply this when staging it's men among civilians.

 

South Africa did not 'win' the case, that's just you pushing an false narrative. Israel did not 'lose' - it was even a better outcome than realistically expected.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

How - when they hide behind/under them? And when many of them are supporters??

 

Imagine 10 Hamas fighter would be in the basement of an Israeli hospital. Would Israel just bomb the whole hospital? Or would they fight only the bad guys in the basement?

They could to the same in Palestinian hospitals. But then, they call Palestinians "animals" and there is obviously no need to care about a few animals. They are just collateral damage. Who cares.

 

And about Palestinians supporting Hamas.

I was never in that situation. But I guess if I would see a foreign army invading my city and killing my family and friends, then I would also support the local freedom fighters. Or maybe I would join them to fight the invaders.

 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Imagine 10 Hamas fighter would be in the basement of an Israeli hospital. Would Israel just bomb the whole hospital? Or would they fight only the bad guys in the basement?

They could to the same in Palestinian hospitals. But then, they call Palestinians "animals" and there is obviously no need to care about a few animals. They are just collateral damage. Who cares.

 

And about Palestinians supporting Hamas.

I was never in that situation. But I guess if I would see a foreign army invading my city and killing my family and friends, then I would also support the local freedom fighters. Or maybe I would join them to fight the invaders.

 

 

You keep making up scenarios and treat them as reality. That's not a very honest way to debate. You also ignore that international law actually allows that, under given circumstances. Yes, collateral damage is a thing. You want to disparage it, fine - but it's a legal concept, term and it carries meaning which does not necessarily echo your agenda. It relates to real life situations, whereas you busy your mind with imaginary ones.

 

Same goes for the 'animals' bit. You take a statement, or even several statements appearing in media - and make them into a general all encompassing claim. Hamas rhetoric on Israel, Israelis and Jews is far worse, by the way. Also covered on these topic - and obviously ignored by such posters as yourself.

 

The Israelis 'invaded' the Gaza Strip after the Hamas 7/10 attack. There are recent links on these topics of clips showing Gazans protesting against Hamas. Not everyone is as caught in Hamas narrative as you, apparently.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

The USA - neither government, nor public opinion - seem to share the full extent of your views. They do not ignore Hamas's role in this, they do not pretend that there's an easy way to deal with things, or that wars are clean and pretty.

 

The topic is not about them illegal settlements in the West Bank. That's just you trying for a diversion when you cannot address points or make your case.

 

Israel being accused is one thing - and some things Israel does are worthy of such condemnations. The point made was about the sheer scope of it, vs. all the other wrongs in the world. If you think that's reasonable, then guess we have very little common ground to continue this discussion.

 

Hamas is not disconnected from Palestine and Palestinians. As for how Israel could fight 'Hamas and only Hamas' - maybe you could give a clue how, its not like it's a position much expressed by actual experts on this. On the contrary, most highlight that it is very hard for things to be otherwise. Your comment about 10 Hamas and 100 Palestinian civilians is just your usual made up exaggeration, which you cannot and will not ever provide support for. Basically, you allege some 'attitude' this way, then treat it as fact. You're not even remotely honest there.

 

Imagine Israel would remove the settlers from the land where Palestinians live. How do you think Palestinians and the world would react? I am pretty sure that would influence the opinion in favor of Israel a lot. And so is the fact that in real life Israel supports these settlements and ignores international law.

 

Israel could use less dump bombs and they could send their soldiers into the tunnels under the city without bombing just everything which is anywhere near the tunnels and Hamas. Of course, that would be more difficult. 

 

I don't know if the ratio

It seems Hamas killed on 7th October fewer than 1000 Israelis. And I don't want to pretend 1000 people are few people, those are a lot of people and Hamas shouldn't have done that.

It seems the current Palestinian body count in Gaza since October is 26,000, including many innocent women and children.

Yes, 10:1 seems too low.

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

2 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  What can be done if Hamas hide among the civilian population ?

IDF cancel the war and go home ?

Let's say a couple of criminals come to your home. What do you expect the police to do? Bomb your home and kill just everybody?

Or would you expect that they send a SWAT team and kill only the criminals?

It's not really that difficult to understand. 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

Imagine Israel would remove the settlers from the land where Palestinians live. How do you think Palestinians and the world would react? I am pretty sure that would influence the opinion in favor of Israel a lot. And so is the fact that in real life Israel supports these settlements and ignores international law.

 

Israel could use less dump bombs and they could send their soldiers into the tunnels under the city without bombing just everything which is anywhere near the tunnels and Hamas. Of course, that would be more difficult. 

 

I don't know if the ratio

It seems Hamas killed on 7th October fewer than 1000 Israelis. And I don't want to pretend 1000 people are few people, those are a lot of people and Hamas shouldn't have done that.

It seems the current Palestinian body count in Gaza since October is 26,000, including many innocent women and children.

Yes, 10:1 seems too low.

 

 

 

Imagine dealing with facts and reality rather than with imaginary scenarios leaving out all them details you're either ignoring or ignorant of? My comment was not about the fact that Israel is being condemned, that's understandable and often merited. It was about the disproportional 'attention' Israel's sins get relative to the global picture.

 

Israel could no 'remove the settlers' as easily as you carelessly describe, for a host of reasons. Topic is not about that, and it's a way too long list. But I think you are aware that it's not quite as straightforward as you present.

 

There are, in fact, less bombs dropped on the Gaza Strip for a while now. And that's exactly because there are more ground troops operating in a smaller area, and that area packed with civilians. The war now is different than in was a few weeks back in the northern part of the Strip. There are more Israeli casualties now, and somewhat less civilians killed. That change was announced about a month back, and is slowly materializing. Sending soldiers to fight in tunnels is not a very smart move - I don't think that's seriously expected in the wholesale manner you seem to suggest. There are reports linked in these topics about locals describing Israel's blowing of tunnels as being very accurate. Again, that's another things that changes with time, and the zone in which battles are fought.

 

Hamas murdered them people. Mostly civilians. Israel does not target civilians. That difference.

 

As for the disparity - let's try again: When Hamas deals with Israel for hostage/prisoner swap, Hamas routinely asks for a very high ratio in it's favor. That does not seem to raise much objections from wannabe 'pro-palestinian' posters on here. If Hamas places a higher value on Israeli lives, what is the whining about? Also, Hamas actually welcomes civilian deaths on its side - these are translated into PR points, and later on, financial ones. The cries from some on here totally disregard that. Parity in casualties, by itself, is not the purpose of war. Hamas knew what he was getting the people of Gaza into. They didn't care. They still don't. Nothing was done to prevent this, mitigate this, or stop this. Somehow in your world, it's all about Israel.

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Do tell how Israel could do that, and still effectively fight Hamas. Just saying things doesn't make them real (a novel concept for you, it seems). Same goes for your comment about 'animals' and 'slaughter'. You constantly make things up, use hyperbole, exaggerate, take things out of context - and treat them as facts. As for Israel being 'surprised' - again nonsense, it wasn't.

 

Israeli Defense Minister: 'We Are Fighting Human Animals’ | HuffPost Latest News

Israeli Defense Minister Announces Siege On Gaza To Fight ‘Human Animals’
Defense Minister Yoav Gallant called for denying Palestinian people electricity, food, water and fuel as Israel continues its bombardment of Gaza.

 

I am sure you will find lots of other sources which confirm this quote.

[OneMoreFarang]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

Hamas did so intentionally. Israel does not.

Israel uses a lot of dumb bombs in Gaza. Maybe they don't kill many people intentionally, but they obviously don't care enough to avoid thousands of innocent people. 

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Let's say a couple of criminals come to your home. What do you expect the police to do? Bomb your home and kill just everybody?

Or would you expect that they send a SWAT team and kill only the criminals?

It's not really that difficult to understand. 

 

Let's drop these silly, over-simplistic analogies, for starters.

[OneMoreFarang]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

Somehow in your world, it's all about Israel.

Mostly Israel and the USA can stop this war. And the USA could force Israel to accept a Palestinian state. It wouldn't be easy, but a Palestinian state is the only viable long-term solution. Israel can't win this conflict the way they try to do it now.

Obviously that also needs cooperation from the Palestinian people and many others. But Israel and the USA and the main players. 

[OneMoreFarang]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

Let's drop these silly, over-simplistic analogies, for starters.

Obviously, it is simplistic. But it seems to help you to understand that bombing everybody is not the only option. 

[Morch]

Just now, OneMoreFarang said:

Israel uses a lot of dumb bombs in Gaza. Maybe they don't kill many people intentionally, but they obviously don't care enough to avoid thousands of innocent people. 

 

I see you're into cutting bits of post out of context, so as to make it easier for you to ignore stuff you can't address. That's, again another dishonest way of debating, and also against forum rules.

 

Your claim above was already addressed many times before. People have a misguided notion of what 'dumb' implies. This isn't some WWI, WWII or even Vietnam War stuff. If that was the case, casualty figures would sky rocket (no pun intended). Unguided (or lower quality guidance) bombs are used - but not everywhere, and not in every situation. This is untrue - and would not even make military sense.

 

As for not caring enough - a member of the Biden administration said Israel takes more care about such things than the USA military might have. This was linked and discussed on numerous past topics. And it's true - Israel is often held to standards which other military forces do not comply with or uphold. That it still isn't enough to prevent massive civilian casualties is a fact. But at some point, it gets beyond ridiculous blaming Israel when the Gazans own government does nothing to mitigate things.