Free event aims to shed light on the new tax rules for foreign income brought into Thailand

[digger70]

43 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

That is not the Thai Embassy, it is a commercial site that sells visa's and the information is long out of date!

It got yesterdays Date  30-1-2024 on the top  .  Anyway we'll see what happens when they get their sh!t together.

[Mike Lister]

16 minutes ago, digger70 said:

It got yesterdays Date  30-1-2024 on the top  .  Anyway we'll see what happens when they get their sh!t together.

Regardless of the date, there is nothing in the Revenue department rules to confirm that retirees are only subject to tax on income earned inside Thailand. If that were the case, this whole business would be very straight forward because it would mean foreigners could import and much money as they wanted from overseas, without being taxed.

[digger70]

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Regardless of the date, there is nothing in the Revenue department rules to confirm that retirees are only subject to tax on income earned inside Thailand. If that were the case, this whole business would be very straight forward because it would mean foreigners could import and much money as they wanted from overseas, without being taxed.

We'll see what eventuates.

[UKresonant]

20 hours ago, ikke1959 said:

If that is true, the tax department will refund the paid tax in Belgium if it is more than you had to pay in Thailand?? As double taxes in tyhe whole world are not done.

Nope.

[Watchit]

I can't help feeling that the foreigners submitting unnecessary tax returns and making unnecessary enquiries are almost volunteering to pay a tax or at the very least giving the Thai tax revenue department ideas which initially they didn't have.

As i said before, they were going afyer tax dodging Thais and not us. Sit tight and do nothing. Only react to clear instructions and nothing more.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Watchit said:

I can't help feeling that the foreigners submitting unnecessary tax returns and making unnecessary enquiries are almost volunteering to pay a tax or at the very least giving the Thai tax revenue department ideas which initially they didn't have.

As i said before, they were going afyer tax dodging Thais and not us. Sit tight and do nothing. Only react to clear instructions and nothing more.

I agree, I think it's important the Revenue doesn't go after tax dodging foreigners too, whatever next!

[zombie nights]

21 minutes ago, Watchit said:

I can't help feeling that the foreigners submitting unnecessary tax returns and making unnecessary enquiries are almost volunteering to pay a tax or at the very least giving the Thai tax revenue department ideas which initially they didn't have.

As i said before, they were going afyer tax dodging Thais and not us. Sit tight and do nothing. Only react to clear instructions and nothing more.

Yes I agree completely.

A practice exists not to impose income taxes on foreign retirees under certain circumstances. That practice has NOT changed.

Yet some  foreigners have mistakenly submitted tax returns which are not necessary and a few of them are now trying to suggest to the rest of us we should do the same.

And of course the revenue dept lap it all up.

Dear oh dear!

Edited February 1 by zombie nights

[Celsius]

17 hours ago, koolkarl said:

You will still get nothing for any amount of tax you pay, no health care, no immigrant status, etc.  You just get an extra 6 months a year to stay here and breathe the polluted air.  Not worth it in any way, shape or form unless you are a sucker.

 

completely agree. I have been saying this since I first heard about this tax.

 

only a Thai bootlicker desperate for sex would want to stay in Thailand and pay this tax.

 

My wife is about to start a new job in march, but she also got Canadian permanent residency. If we go to Canada at least we (especially she) will get something back for the tax we pay.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, zombie nights said:

Yes I agree completely.

A practice exists not to impose income taxes on foreign retirees under certain circumstances. That practice has NOT changed.

Yet some  foreigners have mistakenly submitted tax remains which are not necessary and a few of them are now trying to suggest to the rest of us we should do the same.

And of course the revenue dept lap it all up.

Dear oh dear!

Nobody in these threads about Thai tax have suggested that anyone should file a Thai tax return unnecessarily. What has been advised is that all readers should examine their tax status in Thailand and act accordingly. The purpose of this and other threads about tax are to advise and inform, not instruct.

 

Will you please explain what you mean by Revenue practise  regarding foreigner's and explain how you know it hasn't changed.

[smedly]

19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Nobody in these threads about Thai tax have suggested that anyone should file a Thai tax return unnecessarily. What has been advised is that all readers should examine their tax status in Thailand and act accordingly. The purpose of this and other threads about tax are to advise and inform, not instruct.

 

Will you please explain what you mean by Revenue practise  regarding foreigner's and explain how you know it hasn't changed.

can I ask you a question Mike

 

do you have business interests in Thailand and if so please provide details

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, smedly said:

can I ask you a question Mike

 

do you have business interests in Thailand and if so please provide details

My wife runs a baked goods business via the internet, she started it four years ago, why?

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, zombie nights said:

 

 

H. Are Pensions considered to be assessable income?

According to the two links below, yes they are:

 

 if an expat receives a pension in 2024 from their work or business in the past, the pension will be taxable in the year that the expat remits income into Thailand.

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Thailand-Tax-Foreign-Income-Taxable-from-2024

 

2.1 Under Internal Regulations
In Thailand
In Thailand pension income is regarded as assessable income under Section
40 (1) of the Revenue Code. 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/Norwegian_answer.pdf

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316818-personal-income-tax-guide-for-foreigners-thailand/

[BE88]

Condo sales are in sharp decline in Thailand currently and I wonder how much influence this indecision of the government in not clarifying the various points for importing money into Thailand for foreign residents in Thailand.

 

Therefore, all this lack of clear directives on the new taxation for foreign residents results in considerable economic damage.

 

How much longer can the government wait in the face of this economic damage?

 

I have no problem waiting and seeing what happens

[Mike Lister]

Just now, BE88 said:

Condo sales are in sharp decline in Thailand currently and I wonder how much influence this indecision of the government in not clarifying the various points for importing money into Thailand for foreign residents in Thailand.

 

Therefore, all this lack of clear directives on the new taxation for foreign residents results in considerable economic damage.

 

How much longer can the government wait in the face of this economic damage?

 

I have no problem waiting and seeing what happens

I agree, the property market in Thailand is reliant on foreigners to a greater degree, particularly in places like Phuket. Interestingly, we have not heard much from the property sector who if they were really hurting because of the new rule, would have been screaming by now. And let's not forget, the PM is an ex CEO of a huge property company. I think the reality is that there is no real link between the two things. Property markets globally are having problems, it appears to be a buyers market. Responses on this forum to the tax issues are not representative of foreign buyers in Thailand, I'm almost certain of that. Most people who come here to buy property understand the tax issues and have taken them in their stride. What we seem to be hearing mostly is a few complaining pensioners who still really don't understand the whole business.

[JimGant]

On 1/30/2024 at 6:04 PM, ikke1959 said:

On 1/30/2024 at 2:38 PM, BenStark said:

Below is what my Embassy sent me today.

 

If you live in Thailand for more than 180 days a year, you will be considered a Thai tax resident. In that case you must indicate all foreign income that you bring in to Thailand. If the taxes that have already been paid in Belgium are not sufficient according to Thai tax legislation, you may have to pay an extra tax in Thailand.

If that is true, the tax department will refund the paid tax in Belgium if it is more than you had to pay in Thailand?? As double taxes in tyhe whole world are not done.

 

Here's a quote from the Belgium-Thai DTA re non government pensions:

 

Quote

pensions or other remuneration for past employment arising in a Contracting State and paid to a resident of the other Contracting State may be taxed in the first - mentioned State.

 

Most DTAs have the country of residency as the primary, or even exclusive, taxing country. Belgium, however, gets first taxation rights on private pensions paid in Belgium, and Thailand gets secondary taxation authority. This is indicated by the language "may be taxed" which is OECD Model tax language to indicate taxation may occur in both countries, but the "may be taxed" country has first dibs. (To indicate exclusive taxation rights, where only one country can tax, the language is "may only be taxed.")

 

Thus, the recent statement from the Belgium embassy is consistent with the DTA: Belgium has first taxation rights, but Thailand can also tax. But because Thailand is the secondary taxing authority, it has to grant a credit for Belgium taxes paid. Therefore, if those Belgium taxes are more than the Thai taxes, no taxes owed to Thailand. If less, then you still pay full fare to Belgium, but you also pay Thailand a tax equal to the amount that exceeds the credit. If it's obvious you won't owe Thailand any taxes after the credit, makes you want to not file a tax return with Thailand. And if you don't owe taxes, no penalty, no jail time. Hmmmm.

[BE88]

32 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I agree, the property market in Thailand is reliant on foreigners to a greater degree, particularly in places like Phuket. Interestingly, we have not heard much from the property sector who if they were really hurting because of the new rule, would have been screaming by now. And let's not forget, the PM is an ex CEO of a huge property company. I think the reality is that there is no real link between the two things. Property markets globally are having problems, it appears to be a buyers market. Responses on this forum to the tax issues are not representative of foreign buyers in Thailand, I'm almost certain of that. Most people who come here to buy property understand the tax issues and have taken them in their stride. What we seem to be hearing mostly is a few complaining pensioners who still really don't understand the whole business.

 

O great one, you contradict yourself in your own answer.

 

In Hua Hin without the multiple foreign investments of many boarders Hua Hin would have remained a fishing village.

 

So even now the investments of many pensioners are necessary for Thailand and the various newspapers such as Bangkok Post which fuel the rumours that the sale of condos is in crisis is well confirmation that the sector is suffering.

 

The PM is more interested in staying in power than doing business now.

 

Who would now be crazy to make an investment in Thailand???

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

O great one, you contradict yourself in your own answer.

 

In Hua Hin without the multiple foreign investments of many boarders Hua Hin would have remained a fishing village.

 

So even now the investments of many pensioners are necessary for Thailand and the various newspapers such as Bangkok Post which fuel the rumours that the sale of condos is in crisis is well confirmation that the sector is suffering.

 

The PM is more interested in staying in power than doing business now.

 

Who would now be crazy to make an investment in Thailand???

I fail to see your link between the new tax rule and the decline in the property market, is there one? 

 

Much of Thailand would still comprise fishing villages were it not for backpackers, tourists and pensioners, Hua Hin is not unique in making progress in that respect.

 

Global property markets have fallen because of higher interest rates, that's not a Thailand tax issue.

 

https://www.reuters.com/markets/poll-global-house-price-downturn-fades-most-markets-rise-2024-2023-09-01/

[smedly]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

My wife runs a baked goods business via the internet, she started it four years ago, why?

 

just wondering if you have skin in the game regarding tax issues such as finance or legal, thanks

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, smedly said:

 

just wondering if you have skin in the game regarding tax issues such as finance or legal, thanks

I have an interest and back ground in finance and economics plus I've lived here for over 20 years. I'm keen to help people understand the tax issues and producing the Simple Guide is a vehicle for that. I can't help that people think I have other motives, nor that they think they are being told to file tax returns and pay tax unnecessarily, that's their comprehension issue. I must have had over 50 posters contact me directly in the past two weeks, asking for help in understanding the issues and putting their minds at rest. I feel pretty good that I've been able to help and I get nothing out of this apart from stress and long hours. Inevitably there will be skeptics out there, again, it's their problem to deal with, not mine.

[BE88]

22 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I have an interest and back ground in finance and economics plus I've lived here for over 20 years. I'm keen to help people understand the tax issues and producing the Simple Guide is a vehicle for that. I can't help that people think I have other motives, nor that they think they are being told to file tax returns and pay tax unnecessarily, that's their comprehension issue. I must have had over 50 posters contact me directly in the past two weeks, asking for help in understanding the issues and putting their minds at rest. I feel pretty good that I've been able to help and I get nothing out of this apart from stress and long hours. Inevitably there will be skeptics out there, again, it's their problem to deal with, not mine.

 

I'm sure you read the Bangkok Post every day, right?

 

IF I spoke to Hai Hin it was just to give an example, which I don't think you can understand.

 

I'm not talking about the international real estate market but about the specific case of Thailand with its inability to want to tax everyone but doesn't know how to do it... which is not the case in Western countries.

 

There was only a slight change in the levels of interest rate raising of the Central Bank of Thailand so your justification on the world market is nothing.

 

[smedly]

I wonder how many Thais in Thailand don't pay income-tax, pretty much every Thai I know or have known DO NOT declare income to the RD

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

I'm sure you read the Bangkok Post every day, right?

 

IF I spoke to Hai Hin it was just to give an example, which I don't think you can understand.

 

I'm not talking about the international real estate market but about the specific case of Thailand with its inability to want to tax everyone but doesn't know how to do it... which is not the case in Western countries.

 

There was only a slight change in the levels of interest rate raising of the Central Bank of Thailand so your justification on the world market is nothing.

 

My point is that it's foreigners from overseas who come to Thailand and buy property, many of them are unable to sell property in their home market because rates are high and markets depressed, ergo, they are unable to free up funds to buy here. I am one such person, I have property in the UK I want to sell but can't because of market conditions. I will wait until Spring and then maybe try again, when I do sell I will import those funds to Thailand will buy a rental property here.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, smedly said:

I wonder how many Thais in Thailand don't pay income-tax, pretty much every Thai I know or have known DO NOT declare income to the RD

Only 11% of the labor force (38 million people) file a tax return, only 6% pay tax. Many of the 5% who file a return but don't pay tax are similar to my wife. They are self employed and make substantial incomes whilst taking advantage of generous allowances that benefit small traders. At the risk of repeating myself yet again, (which I know annoys some posters), my wife just paid under 10k baht tax on last years sales of 1 million baht and a profit of over 600k or 50k a month, all legit, all declared, all above board.

[smedly]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Only 11% of the labor force (38 million people) file a tax return, only 6% pay tax

wow

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, smedly said:

wow

The main tax earners are VAT and Corporate tax, the aim of the Revenue is to increase the tax net which in part is what the new ruling is all about, catching Thai people with untaxed offshore earnings. BTW, the size of the grey or informal economy is estimated to be equal to 48% of GDP or around USD 260 bill. per year. These are people who work cash in hand and or don't declare or sub declare their earnings.

[Ben Zioner]

3 hours ago, Watchit said:

As i said before, they were going afyer tax dodging Thais and not us. Sit tight and do nothing. Only react to clear instructions and nothing more.

They won't make any difference between Thais and non-Thais. Neither are we talking about dodgers. Most people who were not paying IT are those who used the rule saying that foreign income remitted to Thailand in any year after the year of earning would be tax free. 

 

This means, of course, that all pensions paid [directly] into Thai banks have always been assessable, Jan 1, 2024 won't make any difference.

Edited February 1 by Ben Zioner

[BE88]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

My point is that it's foreigners from overseas who come to Thailand and buy property, many of them are unable to sell property in their home market because rates are high and markets depressed, ergo, they are unable to free up funds to buy here. I am one such person, I have property in the UK I want to sell but can't because of market conditions. I will wait until Spring and then maybe try again, when I do sell I will import those funds to Thailand will buy a rental property here.

 

This is just nonsense, if you hope to sell at the speculation price you have missed the boat then sell now if you lower your demands.

 

I already have sales and I have money in the bank, but I would be completely out of commercial sense to buy now in Thailand.

 

I would just like to know what reasons you have to indirectly approve the game of the Thai government towards expatriates and more particularly towards retired you think with your superiority who are among the poor incapable of understanding the most basic cases.

 

 

Edited February 1 by BE88

[Ben Zioner]

59 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I will wait until Spring and then maybe try again, when I do sell I will import those funds to Thailand will buy a rental property here.

Innocent question: have you worked out the that tax that could be levied now from those funds?

[Adumbration]

Waste of time.  I will be doing nothing different from what i have been doing until someone (in a position of authority) tells me otherwise.  I have put off all major land and vehicle purchases and will live off the funds I currently have in Thailand with no further remittances from abroad.

 

Only intereaction I have with government year in year out is at immigration.  I just did my extension absolutely nothing changed from the previous year.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, BE88 said:

 

This is just nonsense, if you hope to sell at the speculation price you have missed the boat then sell now if you lower your demands.

 

I already have sales and I have money in the bank here but I would be completely out of commercial sense to buy now in Thailand.

 

I would just like to know what reasons you have to indirectly approve the game of the Thai government towards expatriates and more particularly towards retired you think with your superiority who are among the poor incapable of understanding the most basic cases.

 

 

It is not my role to approve anything, simply to try and help when asked and to provide input.

 

I'm happy to debate this topic with you but must insist you don't personalise it towards me, which is the direction your post above is moving towards. Debate the post, not the poster, please.