As Israel attacks Rafah, US offers only words of caution

[Rimmer]

A conspiracy troll baiting post and replies has been removed.

 

Please stop this baiting nonsense now!

[placeholder]

48 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

STATEMENT OF SCHOLARS OF HOLOCAUST STUDIES AND OF GENOCIDE   STUDIES AND PREVENTION:

Declaring the Atrocities   Committed by Hamas Against Israeli Civilians as Crimes Against Humanity, War   Crimes and Genocide

Recognizing, that on October 7,   2023, in tandem with massive rocket attacks on dozens of Israeli cities and   villages, more than 1,500 armed Hamas militants illegally broke through the   southern Israeli border with Gaza. They committed genocidal massacres of more   than 1,400 Israeli civilians, ambushing them on the streets of their   villages, breaking into their houses, and butchering them in the most cruel   and vicious ways. Families hiding in their houses were murdered, including   men, women, children, babies, and the elderly. The attackers set civilians'   houses on fire, burning the inhabitants alive. They mutilated and burned the   bodies of murdered Israelis. They raped Israeli women;

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/holocaust-genocide-scholars-condemn-oct-7-hamas-massacre

Can you share with us who signed on to this statement? I didn't notice any names endorsing it. I did go to the originating site and found that I could sign on to it and claim whatever position and degree I chose to.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeAb9JlXytEEKwyrzg8IYUivDe_4Ebe8tdbJe2kxRlupdWh9w/viewform?vc=0&c=0&w=1&flr=0

I don't know whether the information I provided would be vetted or not. I've seen other such documents offered on the internet. For example:

Public Statement: Scholars Warn of Potential Genocide in Gaza

https://opiniojuris.org/2023/10/18/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Can you share with us who signed on to this statement? I didn't notice any names endorsing it. I did go to the originating site and found that I could sign on to it and claim whatever position and degree I chose to.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeAb9JlXytEEKwyrzg8IYUivDe_4Ebe8tdbJe2kxRlupdWh9w/viewform?vc=0&c=0&w=1&flr=0

I don't know whether the information I provided would be vetted or not. I've seen other such documents offered on the internet. For example:

Public Statement: Scholars Warn of Potential Genocide in Gaza

https://opiniojuris.org/2023/10/18/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/

No can you? Maybe try the about us page, plenty of names there

Edited February 15 by Bkk Brian

[placeholder]

Also, this document was published on www.genocidewatch.com

This same website features on interview with , Dr. Gregory H. Stanton, Founding President, Genocide Watch.

He points out that as International Law currently stands, to prove a charge of genocide, it has to be established that genocide was the sole intent of the parties doing the killing. He notes that this is like saying that someone couldn't be convicted of murder if it was committed during a robbery.

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/can-the-world-court-stop-israel

 

 

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No can you? Maybe try the about us page, plenty of names there

The site published the document. It doesn't mean that all or even most of its staff or board endorsed it. It was not published as a document emanating from Genocide Watch.

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Also, this document was published on www.genocidewatch.com

This same website features on interview with , Dr. Gregory H. Stanton, Founding President, Genocide Watch.

He points out that as International Law currently stands, to prove a charge of genocide, it has to be established that genocide was the sole intent of the parties doing the killing. He notes that this is like saying that someone couldn't be convicted of murder if it was committed during a robbery.

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/can-the-world-court-stop-israel

 

 

Yes and? The statement on genocide and war crimes by Hamas that you were so concerned about having the names was not exactly rocket science was it? After all they provided verified links to all the evidence, here's their first one, and numerous others.

 

Israel/Palestine: Videos of Hamas-Led Attacks Verified

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/18/israel/palestine-videos-hamas-led-attacks-verified

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

The site published the document. It doesn't mean that all or even most of its staff or board endorsed it. It was not published as a document emanating from Genocide Watch.

Ok and?

[placeholder]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Yes and? The statement on genocide and war crimes by Hamas that you were so concerned about having the names was not exactly rocket science was it? After all they provided verified links to all the evidence, here's their first one, and numerous others.

 

Israel/Palestine: Videos of Hamas-Led Attacks Verified

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/18/israel/palestine-videos-hamas-led-attacks-verified

 

The question is not whether or not these attacks are verified, but whether they are evidence of genocidal intent. 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Ok and?

So who exactly is endorsing this document?

[WDSmart]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

So, you are arguing that 1,200 is not a lot of people? 

 

Why, because you don't consider Jews really people? 

I consider 1,200 people a lot, but not when compared with 9 million. That is why I don't consider the Hamas terrorist attack on 7 Oct "genocide." 

I do consider "Jews" (those who practice the religion of Judaism) as people. I also consider "Israelis" (citizens and nationals of the State of Israel. Israelis - Wikipedia) as people. I prefer "Israelis" to "Jews" when talking about these people.

Edited February 15 by WDSmart

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

So who exactly is endorsing this document?

I don't care, it's published by a reputable organization that has taken evidence from reputable organizations. It has a reputable board of directors and staff. I classify it as reputable along with my own opinion that agrees with it based on available evidence.

 

I wish you well in your investigation to discover the names.

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The question is not whether or not these attacks are verified, but whether they are evidence of genocidal intent. 

 yea whatever read the statement and links all together, that was just the first link, one of many

[metisdead]

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[retarius]

5 hours ago, WDSmart said:

My opinions are not warped, biased, or anti-Semitic. My opinions are well-thought-out, unbiased, and neither anti-Hebrew(Jew) nor anti-Arab(Muslim). That's the basis of your problem with them. They are not pro-Israeli, so you judge them to be biased because of YOUR extreme, biased, anti-Semitic perspective.

I have a BA with an English Major, have authored nine published books, and have edited and helped publish over 200 other books (in English), so, I think my use of the English language should be good enough for posting in this Forum and Topic.

My post above, to which you are referring, merely pointed out that your objection to the use of the word "genocide" was not warranted and did so by using the very method you suggested - looking it up online. I could also add that the pending charges against Israel that are being considered by the UN's International Court of Justice (ICJ) include the very charge of "genocide."

And my insult at the end of my post was done only to mirror your insult. Your posts usually contain some sort of insult. Mine, with the exception of this last one, usually don't.

Absolutely spot on. 

[retarius]

I guess I am a believer in 'you reap what you sow'. Over the period from the six day war in 1967 to today I have had a journey from in 1967 following my father's political thoughts I was staunchly pro-Israeli; to sometime are 1990 visiting Israel when I started to doubt the western propaganda having seen things with my own eyes; to today when I see that repression, bullying, oppression and mass murdering of innocent people, cannot and will not bring peace, and I have become Pro-Palestine. I'm now watching the fruits of the wars which Israel has sown. 

 

Be careful what you wish for.....some one likely killed Yasser Arafat likely with polonium, maybe is was Mossad?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Yasser_Arafat If killed by polonium it is very likely a state actor. But what came initially alongside and as a competitor to Arafat, and then his replacement. and now reaping what you sow, you end up with Hamas as your enemy. Maybe the enemy you know and can handle rather than open who is worse. 

Now in trying to eradicate Hamas (as they say they are trying to do) by murdering innocent Palestinian women and children, you risk ending up with leaders much worse than the current Hamas leaders, people more violent and more brutal. People who will make Israel less safe. The very policy is as insane as it is murderous, bullying, brutal and illegal. 

When you steal land the original owners descendants will never ever forget, because the land is always there to be seen and the grievance is nursed continually.

The only way forward is for Israel to say, OK Palestinians we have given you a rotten deal, we will now offer a two state solution, we'll negotiate the details but you will have your own land and we'll have ours. We'll kick the zionists out of the West Bank and Gaza and return that land to you. Then you will be masters of your own fate. Bibi is the word person to say this because his actions betray him as an evil thug, at best. But Israel, you have got to vote in better leaders, young Israelis, you have got to get inviolved and banish the Bibi and their Zionist ilk from politics. Make zionism a crime for Jesus' sake. 

[WDSmart]

International opposition to Israel's military plans in Rafah is growing.

 February 13, 2024 Israel-Hamas war (cnn.com)

It's working... 

What I have come to believe to be the primary objective of Hamas' horrible Oct 7 terrorist attack on Israel was to provoke Israel into a revenge counterattack on Gaza. I believe Hamas was counting on Israel to be so savage in this attack that they would start losing the support of the UN, the USA, and the Western world in general. This is definitely what is now happening.

Their secondary objective was to capture hostages that they could use in what they hoped would be the forced negotiations with Israel.

A lot will depend on just how Israel carries out their declared ground invasion of Rafah. I do expect the IDF to reveal what they want to be the ways the over 1 million Palestinian civilians, who are now holed up in Rafah, can evacuate north, where most of them have fled from. They can't go south since I don't think Egypt would allow that. BUT, I think Hamas may even try to STOP any evacuation to delay and perhaps even cancel the ground invasion. Or if that doesn't work, make the destruction and loss of life of the ground invasion as devastating as possible. This would further weaken the bonds between Israel and its Western allies even more.

What I believe Hamas wants is a forced negotiation in which a permanent ceasefire in return for the hostages is agreed to. This would, IMO, also require an on-site UN peacekeeping force and continuing forced negotiations on how to split up this land into a two-state solution. 

Edited February 15 by WDSmart

[Yellowtail]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

Can you share with us who signed on to this statement? I didn't notice any names endorsing it. I did go to the originating site and found that I could sign on to it and claim whatever position and degree I chose to.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeAb9JlXytEEKwyrzg8IYUivDe_4Ebe8tdbJe2kxRlupdWh9w/viewform?vc=0&c=0&w=1&flr=0

I don't know whether the information I provided would be vetted or not. I've seen other such documents offered on the internet. For example:

Public Statement: Scholars Warn of Potential Genocide in Gaza

https://opiniojuris.org/2023/10/18/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/

So it's operated like a global warming petition...

[Bkk Brian]

Reports from hostages themselves have added to this intelligence

 

We have credible intelligence that Hamas held hostages in Nasser Hospital.

“Since the Hamas massacre of October 7, the IDF has been operating to fulfill its mission of dismantling Hamas and bringing our hostages home.”

 

 

[WDSmart]

20 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Reports from hostages themselves have added to this intelligence

 

We have credible intelligence that Hamas held hostages in Nasser Hospital.

“Since the Hamas massacre of October 7, the IDF has been operating to fulfill its mission of dismantling Hamas and bringing our hostages home.”

 

 

Inside the Gaza's Nasser Hospital, surrounded by Israeli troops (nbcnews.com)

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Inside the Gaza's Nasser Hospital, surrounded by Israeli troops (nbcnews.com)

That's 2 days old, the operation at the hospital is going on now, they've just entered thats why I posted that earlier post from IDF:

 

Israeli special forces enter Nasser Hospital

Israeli special forces have entered Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, according to both the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and the health ministry in Hamas-run Gaza.

IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari said they had “credible intelligence from a number of sources, including from released hostages,” that Hamas had previously held hostages at the hospital, and that the bodies of deceased hostages may be present at the hospital.

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-02-15-24/h_4d1dae8b2e134ccfb6c888e07cbce902

[Yellowtail]

11 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Inside the Gaza's Nasser Hospital, surrounded by Israeli troops (nbcnews.com)

Do you agree that Hamas hiding in hospitals are committing war crimes? 

[Bkk Brian]

33 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

That's 2 days old, the operation at the hospital is going on now, they've just entered thats why I posted that earlier post from IDF:

 

Israeli special forces enter Nasser Hospital

Israeli special forces have entered Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, according to both the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and the health ministry in Hamas-run Gaza.

IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari said they had “credible intelligence from a number of sources, including from released hostages,” that Hamas had previously held hostages at the hospital, and that the bodies of deceased hostages may be present at the hospital.

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-02-15-24/h_4d1dae8b2e134ccfb6c888e07cbce902

Suspects 'apprehended' inside Nasser Hospital
According to the IDF, its troops have "apprehended a number of suspects inside the Nasser Hospital".

In a statement this afternoon, it added: "The goal of the precise and limited operation is to reach Hamas terrorist operatives, including those suspected of involvement in the 7 October massacre.

"On Tuesday, the IDF officially contacted the Director of the Nasser Medical Centre, calling for the immediate cessation of all Hamas terrorist activity from within the hospital and the immediate evacuation of all Hamas terrorists from within.

"The operational activity is continuing."

Israel has repeatedly claimed Hamas militants have been hiding in hospitals and other civilian building

https://news.sky.com/story/middle-east-latest-five-members-of-same-family-killed-in-deadliest-strike-on-lebanon-since-war-began-12978800?postid=7231861#liveblog-body

[Eloquent pilgrim]

11 hours ago, WDSmart said:

My opinions are not warped, biased, or anti-Semitic. My opinions are well-thought-out, unbiased, and neither anti-Hebrew(Jew) nor anti-Arab(Muslim). That's the basis of your problem with them. They are not pro-Israeli, so you judge them to be biased because of YOUR extreme, biased, anti-Semitic perspective.

I have a BA with an English Major, have authored nine published books, and have edited and helped publish over 200 other books (in English), so, I think my use of the English language should be good enough for posting in this Forum and Topic.

My post above, to which you are referring, merely pointed out that your objection to the use of the word "genocide" was not warranted and did so by using the very method you suggested - looking it up online. I could also add that the pending charges against Israel that are being considered by the UN's International Court of Justice (ICJ) include the very charge of "genocide."

And my insult at the end of my post was done only to mirror your insult. Your posts usually contain some sort of insult. Mine, with the exception of this last one, usually don't.

 

 

Accepting you at your word regarding your prior education, which I am happy to do, it merely serves to amplify and compound your antisemitic bias; because it means that you have deliberately, and wilfully, used the word genocide, incorrectly, for the kind of sensationalist effect that is usually reserved for student protesters, the gullible, and uniformed.

 

You must know full well that although the human tragedy unfolding in Gaza is appalling, it is not Israel attempting to commit genocide; despite the logistical difficulties and the way in which it has compromised their operations, the IDF have given countless warnings and pleas for evacuation prior to attacks; warnings taken by Hamas fighters whilst telling the civilian population to remain, and at times physically preventing them from evacuating; so why would an educated man make such a false claim ?

 

The only genocide in this tragic situation lurks within the founding charted of the government of Gaza; they state quite unequivocally in that charter, their aim to eradicate all jews, not just in Israel, but in the whole world. They were elected on this very manifesto  … but you know that already, don’t you ?

 

This is a war. Gaza declared war on Israel on 7th Oct 23. Their elected government of the last 18 years, invaded Israel and the heinous barbarity of that invasion, unparalleled in the history of mankind, is very well documented.

 

Hundreds of Palestinian civilians from Gaza, according to Hamas, took part in the butchery of 7th October; you know, those ‘innocent’ Palestinians that now want to distance themselves from their own government.

 

For the last 18 years the Palestinian population of Gaza has been supporting this government, while they continued to fire rockets indiscriminately at the civilian population of Israel; they cheered and partied in the streets of Gaza on Oct 7th and 8th, they abused dying and dead innocent Israeli civilian bodies as they were paraded through the streets of Gaza in a ‘victory’ celebration.

 

It is unfortunately now, far, far, too late, for the people of Gaza to say “this government that we have supported for 18 years while they were promising to kill all jews, does not really represent us”  ….. They need to tell Yahya Sinwar, and you need to stop using the word genocide in a dishonest way, a way that is not in keeping with your education.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/15/2024 at 3:34 PM, WDSmart said:

I understand that the hostages are the only bargaining chips that Hamas has. Israel has military power as their most potent bargaining chip. So yes, I would like Hamas to release the hostages, but I would also like Israel to cease their attacks on Gaza - a permanent ceasefire. Unfortunately, neither side will do either of these unconditionally.

So, what I have been recommending is an agreement that includes BOTH the release of the hostages and a permanent ceasefire. And I think a UN peacekeeping force would need to be implemented to ensure both sides live up to this agreement. I also think the agreement should also include commitments to talks about how to divvy up the land in question to reach a two-state solution. I've previously given my recommendations on that.

This talk of peacekeepers reminds me of a Tom Clancy book I read many years ago, where an israeli soldier just shot ONE Palestinian and the UN sent a peacekeeping force. I don't remember the book title but was Clancy ever wrong on that! The UN has been exposed as useless and hostage to any member with a veto.

 

I can't see it surviving in the same corrupt manner in the future. Hopefully all the other members demand an end to the veto.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Accepting you at your word regarding your prior education, which I am happy to do, it merely serves to amplify and compound your antisemitic bias; because it means that you have deliberately, and wilfully, used the word genocide, incorrectly, for the kind of sensationalist effect that is usually reserved for student protesters, the gullible, and uniformed.

That would then include just about every leading figure that has spoken recently on Al Jazeera, who have been using genocide to describe what is happening, all of which I consider more rational than yourself with your refusal to acknowledge the reality of the situation in Gaza.

 

I am sure that you will denigrate Al Jazeera, so carry on.

Edited February 16 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, WDSmart said:

What I have come to believe to be the primary objective of Hamas' horrible Oct 7 terrorist attack on Israel was to provoke Israel into a revenge counterattack on Gaza. I believe Hamas was counting on Israel to be so savage in this attack that they would start losing the support of the UN, the USA, and the Western world in general. This is definitely what is now happening.

I came to that conclusion about 2 months ago when the plan became clear.

They certainly got the israeli reaction correct, though it didn't require much thought IMO, as they have always reacted with excessive force to any provocation.

The question though, is how many Palestinian deaths Hamas thought would occur before the world intervened, and how far they are willing to continue. Having come this far I suspect they will stay the course.

When it's all over, I hope outraged citizens will remind western "leaders" ( that colluded in the atrocity ) of every dead Palestinian child, for the rest of their lives.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Inside the Gaza's Nasser Hospital, surrounded by Israeli troops (nbcnews.com)

According to Al Jazeera not long ago, israelis ordered Nasser Hospital evacuated, and has destroyed part of the hospital.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68293874

Israel orders evacuation of largest hospital in southern Gaza

Edited February 16 by thaibeachlovers

[Bkk Brian]

How to take out a cell of terrorists 101................

 

With full coordination between ground, air, and sea forces, the IDF successfully eliminated #Hamas terrorists, among them an operative in the organization's general security and terrorists who took part in the #October7Massacre

 

 

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They certainly got the israeli reaction correct, though it didn't require much thought IMO, as they have always reacted with excessive force to any provocation.

Indeed, although this time really takes the hamantaschen.

[transam]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Indeed, although this time really takes the hamantaschen.

"Hamantaschen".............Meaning...?  🤔