3 hours ago, BLMFem said:

So it has been revealed that the 28 point peace plan was not written by American, but by Russians! Words fail me. When I thought the Trump 2.0 s**t show couldn't get any worse, they totally blow that assumption out of the water.

What the actual frack is going on in the WH?? The grownups must return, 25 NOW!

 

 

 

Part of Grok's (AI) take on this tweet/post:

 

 

It is clear at this point Trump could end all of humanitys ills, make everyone on earth billionaires that live forever in a paradise and the forum left will be like.....wah wah wah Trump

 

Beyond ridiculous at this point. For newcomers its worth pointing out the same people wigging out about Ukraine/Russia peace are the very same that assured us the lableak was a conspiracy, the laptop was Russian disinformation, the vaxes were 100% effective, and open border is a secure border and on and on and on. Just wrong at every turn and here we are with their more wars and $$ for little Z narrative.

It's written in The Art Of The Deal by Trump,

"Deals are my art form. Other people paint beautifully or write poetry. I like making deals, preferably big deals. "

This piece of art looks like Pollocks.

7 minutes ago, Hamus Yaigh said:

It's written in The Art Of The Deal by Trump,

"Deals are my art form. Other people paint beautifully or write poetry. I like making deals, preferably big deals. "

This piece of art looks like Pollocks.

Which he didn't even  write.

31 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

It is clear at this point Trump could end all of humanitys ills, make everyone on earth billionaires that live forever in a paradise and the forum left will be like.....wah wah wah Trump

 

Beyond ridiculous at this point. For newcomers its worth pointing out the same people wigging out about Ukraine/Russia peace are the very same that assured us the lableak was a conspiracy, the laptop was Russian disinformation, the vaxes were 100% effective, and open border is a secure border and on and on and on. Just wrong at every turn and here we are with their more wars and $$ for little Z narrative.

Aaaah the laptop! 

(The one in which no evidence against Joe has been found, according to the Comer/Jordan failed committee).

 

BTW, you forgot to mention Soros! 

1 hour ago, BLMFem said:

Imagine what's going through the minds of poor Zelenskyy and other European leaders having to deal with this s**t show.

TACOs, factions, u-turns, 90, 270, spinning in place. 

25, now!

 

 

 

 

According to the excellenmt Kyiv Independent - Zelenskiy has to get rid of his whole inner circle - the war cabinet and maybe even himself  such is the whiff of corruption about the whole thing. Rumours circulate that Trump / CIA helped with some of the details to hlep the story grow wings. That Trump is effectively a Russian assett is basically a given at this point. We are nearly at the point of the fall of South Vietnam now, choppers on the roof. Zelenskiy does have the cards but is a house of cards and it's collapsing. 

 

https://archive.ph/DX2ku

 

Daniel Hannan - Trump is behaving precisely as he would if he were a Russian asset - This ‘peace plan’ is not only a tragedy for Ukraine, but an immediate crisis for Britain 

 

We are back to where we feared we would be when Donald Trump won the 2024 election. Any pretence at even-handedness has gone. All that talk about “very severe consequences” if Putin did not agree to a ceasefire at the Alaska summit has been shown to be nonsense. As I have mournfully written before, I don’t believe the claims that Putin has kompromat on Trump; but the tragic truth is that, kompromat or no kompromat, Trump is behaving precisely as he would if he were a Russian asset.

 

 

 

Of course, it's been written directly or indirectly by Russia, as it echoes about all of Putin's demands.

 

As I predicted when Trump was elected, it's open bar for Russia!

1 hour ago, sharot724 said:

 

Ukraine Says It'll Keep Hitting Russian Oil Sites Even If US Cuts Intelligence—"It Will Be Harder, But It Will Continue"

Courage the Euros need to find as they are the next War for Russia

I asked Claude about the combined effect of US intelligence along with Musk cutting off Starlink would make; 

 

They'd be crippled, not finished. We actually have a test case—the US did pause intelligence sharing in March 2025 (it was later restored, but the damage was illustrative).

What Ukraine lost immediately:

Early warning of Russian bomber takeoffs and missile launches, detected via US satellite surveillance and signals intercepts of Russian Defence Ministry communications—often before the planes even leave the ground. Without US targeting data, HIMARS and ATACMS were effectively neutered—Ukraine couldn't operate them for offensive strikes. US intelligence had provided real-time satellite data and electronic surveillance of Russian troop movements, allowing Ukrainian units to reposition rapidly and strike where the enemy is weakest—cutting this off meant "blinding Ukrainian commanders, forcing them to operate in the dark".

The US has satellite-based infrared early-warning systems for missile launches that only the US and Russia possess—Europe has nothing comparable. US computing advantages in deploying AI and big data on intelligence questions are also unmatched, meaning Ukraine would receive "less real-time intelligence and possibly lower quality intelligence assessments".

What they'd revert to:

Old-school methods now "largely obsolete": movement to contact (locating enemies by getting them to shoot at you), reconnaissance by force, hasty attacks—the pre-satellite era of warfare. European alternatives exist—Finnish ICEYE satellites, French CSO-3 imagery, German and Italian radar systems, Japanese support—but these are commercial/smaller-scale solutions. As one French general put it, French intelligence "covers almost the entire spectrum of US intelligence, albeit with significantly smaller volumes and more modest resources".

The combined effect:

No Starlink = degraded drone coordination, artillery targeting, command and control.

No US intelligence = blind to Russian movements, no early warning of missile strikes, can't effectively use precision weapons, forced back to 20th-century warfare methods.

When the pause happened, Russia became bolder and advanced more—the very public reduction in American support gave Moscow greater motivation to push forward. They'd still fight. But as one Ukrainian parliamentarian put it, without "vital" US intelligence, Ukrainian troops and civilians are "under greater danger".

Your broader point crystallizes: Ukraine's entire modern war-fighting capability—the precision, the agility, the David-versus-Goliath effectiveness—rests on infrastructure controlled by Washington and a South African billionaire who posts inflammatory <deleted>e on social media. Strategic dependency doesn't get much more precarious.

As Zelensky faces a difficult choice, US officials and lawmakers have expressed their concern about Russian involvement in the plan after it was revealed the administration had held meetings with a blacklisted Kremlin official beforehand.

 

Kirill Dmitriev, a close ally of Putin, is the CEO of the Russian Direct Investment Fund (RDIF) and assumed the office of the special presidential envoy on Foreign Investment and Economic Cooperation on 23 February this year despite little diplomatic experience.

 

Dmitriev and his fund have been under US sanctions, which effectively bar American citizens and companies from dealing with them, since 2022.

But that did not stop Trump’s special envoy Steve Witkoff and the president’s son-in-law Jared Kushner from meeting with Dmitriev in Miami at the end of October, it has emerged. Witkoff has met with Dmitriev several times this year and the Trump administration has issued a special waiver to allow his entry, a US official told Reuters.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/kirill-dmitriev-russia-trump-peace-ukraine-b2870370.html?callback=in&code=MMMYOGMYMMITZJBLYS0ZZTC4LTGXZWYTODUZOTEWZWVKYZU4&state=4ee0fd43d71e4f02b165d3337a24af0f

 

Confirming his involvement in the latest talks in an interview with Axios, Dmitriev said “we feel the Russian position is really being heard”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, candide said:

Of course, it's been written directly or indirectly by Russia, as it echoes about all of Putin's demands.

 

As I predicted when Trump was elected, it's open bar for Russia!

 

Trump officials' meeting with Russian in Miami spurs questions about Ukraine proposal

 

WASHINGTON, Nov 22 (Reuters) - U.S. officials and lawmakers are increasingly concerned about a meeting last month in which representatives of the Trump administration met with Kirill Dmitriev, a Russian envoy who is under U.S. sanctions, to draft a plan to end the war in Ukraine, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter.

 

The meeting took place in Miami at the end of October and included special envoy Steve Witkoff, President Donald Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner and Dmitriev, who leads the Russian Direct Investment Fund, one of Russia's largest sovereign wealth funds.

 

A close ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, Dmitriev has taken a leading role in talks with the U.S. about the war and has met with Witkoff several times this year. The Trump administration issued a special waiver to allow his entry, a senior U.S. official told Reuters.

 

MEETING RESULTED IN CONTROVERSIAL UKRAINE PEACE PLAN

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/trump-officials-meeting-with-russian-miami-spurs-questions-about-latest-ukraine-2025-11-22/

 

 

Dmitriev and his fund were blacklisted by the U.S. government in 2022 following Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. The sanctions effectively bar American citizens and companies from dealing with them.

The meeting resulted in a 28-point plan for ending the war, two people familiar with the situation said. The plan, which was made public this week by Axios, came as a surprise to U.S. officials in various corners of the administration and has stirred confusion at embassies throughout Washington and in European capitals.

There are 850k male Ukrainian males refugees in Europe of army age - time to send them home. 

Just now, beautifulthailand99 said:

There are 850k male Ukrainian males refugees in Europe of army age - time to send them home. 

Why.....?  🤫

1 minute ago, bannork said:

The meeting took place in Miami at the end of October and included special envoy Steve Witkoff, President Donald Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner and Dmitriev, who leads the Russian Direct Investment Fund, one of Russia's largest sovereign wealth funds.

With Trump and co- it's always about the money and it should be no surprise that these people were discussing the future of Ukraine, without Ukraine's involvement of course and with the leader of Russia's direct investment fund – – you couldn't make this stuff up if you tried – – what a bunch of crooks the Trump family are, as are his hangers on.

 

There will come a time when the "chickens will come home to roost" and I sincerely hope that this corrupt administration is held to account. 

10 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I asked Claude about the combined effect of US intelligence along with Musk cutting off Starlink would make; 

 

They'd be crippled, not finished. We actually have a test case—the US did pause intelligence sharing in March 2025 (it was later restored, but the damage was illustrative).

What Ukraine lost immediately:

Early warning of Russian bomber takeoffs and missile launches, detected via US satellite surveillance and signals intercepts of Russian Defence Ministry communications—often before the planes even leave the ground. Without US targeting data, HIMARS and ATACMS were effectively neutered—Ukraine couldn't operate them for offensive strikes. US intelligence had provided real-time satellite data and electronic surveillance of Russian troop movements, allowing Ukrainian units to reposition rapidly and strike where the enemy is weakest—cutting this off meant "blinding Ukrainian commanders, forcing them to operate in the dark".

The US has satellite-based infrared early-warning systems for missile launches that only the US and Russia possess—Europe has nothing comparable. US computing advantages in deploying AI and big data on intelligence questions are also unmatched, meaning Ukraine would receive "less real-time intelligence and possibly lower quality intelligence assessments".

What they'd revert to:

Old-school methods now "largely obsolete": movement to contact (locating enemies by getting them to shoot at you), reconnaissance by force, hasty attacks—the pre-satellite era of warfare. European alternatives exist—Finnish ICEYE satellites, French CSO-3 imagery, German and Italian radar systems, Japanese support—but these are commercial/smaller-scale solutions. As one French general put it, French intelligence "covers almost the entire spectrum of US intelligence, albeit with significantly smaller volumes and more modest resources".

The combined effect:

No Starlink = degraded drone coordination, artillery targeting, command and control.

No US intelligence = blind to Russian movements, no early warning of missile strikes, can't effectively use precision weapons, forced back to 20th-century warfare methods.

When the pause happened, Russia became bolder and advanced more—the very public reduction in American support gave Moscow greater motivation to push forward. They'd still fight. But as one Ukrainian parliamentarian put it, without "vital" US intelligence, Ukrainian troops and civilians are "under greater danger".

Your broader point crystallizes: Ukraine's entire modern war-fighting capability—the precision, the agility, the David-versus-Goliath effectiveness—rests on infrastructure controlled by Washington and a South African billionaire who posts inflammatory <deleted>e on social media. Strategic dependency doesn't get much more precarious.

The limits of US leverage:

 

 

22 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

According to the excellenmt Kyiv Independent - Zelenskiy has to get rid of his whole inner circle - the war cabinet and maybe even himself  such is the whiff of corruption about the whole thing. Rumours circulate that Trump / CIA helped with some of the details to hlep the story grow wings. That Trump is effectively a Russian assett is basically a given at this point. We are nearly at the point of the fall of South Vietnam now, choppers on the roof. Zelenskiy does have the cards but is a house of cards and it's collapsing. 

 

https://archive.ph/DX2ku

 

Daniel Hannan - Trump is behaving precisely as he would if he were a Russian asset - This ‘peace plan’ is not only a tragedy for Ukraine, but an immediate crisis for Britain 

 

We are back to where we feared we would be when Donald Trump won the 2024 election. Any pretence at even-handedness has gone. All that talk about “very severe consequences” if Putin did not agree to a ceasefire at the Alaska summit has been shown to be nonsense. As I have mournfully written before, I don’t believe the claims that Putin has kompromat on Trump; but the tragic truth is that, kompromat or no kompromat, Trump is behaving precisely as he would if he were a Russian asset.

 

 

 

Oh and that Yermak that they major on in that report .... 

5 minutes ago, transam said:

Why.....?  🤫

Ukraine needs fighting males to defend their country - if they won't do it why should we with our economies and treasure. I don't blame them btw I would but we're full up in the UK - it's low hanging fruit for Europe and it what Zelensiy wants. 

1 minute ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Ukraine needs fighting males to defend their country - if they won't do it why should we with our economies and treasure. I don't blame them btw I would but we're full up in the UK - it's low hanging fruit for Europe and it what Zelensiy wants. 

I think you are assuming a lot, if the west had boots on the ground that would be different.

This unacceptable war will cost the west money until it has an acceptable ending......🤗

If it wasn't written by Russia it was certainly written for Russia, and Trump's fealty to Putin continues to show, despite the recent tremors in their relationship.

 

King Vlad definitely has something on Trump, I think there are very few of us that question that. If nothing else the proposal certainly reflects Trump's lack of negotiating skills. 

If Z accepts it he's a dead man walking if he doesn't pretty much the same. Time to take that ride. 

Is this the General's moment coming ? It could be. Perhaps it goes something like this:

Zelensky agrees, peace hopes hit all time high, everything looks swell. There's ambiguity on the Russian side, but it appears they're playing ball through the media lens and that's all that matters.

Then, trouble afoot. The nationalists start causing trouble. A gunfight ensues outside the RADA and it appears there's a coup unfolding, and in the chaos, a figure emerges...
And the first chapter ends. Fade to black. 

 

 

2 hours ago, sharot724 said:

This means with Trump just pushing the Russian deal and has quit on them.

Europe now needs to take the reigns. They are next is the quiet sorm...

Trump gave up negotiating unilaterally - he started doing it one at a time - separately with each.  He sent staff to ask Russia what they wanted and then sent staff to ask Ukraine what they wanted. That has now been added together and has been put in front of both of them separately to see what if any common ground exists.  Do not believe anything the media states - both Western aligned and Russian aligned - they both spew propaganda.  

 

IMO Trump will not permit NATO to get involved - he does not want WW3 to start over Ukraine - and the vast majority of People in USA agree that they do not want Americans dying in a war in Europe/China.  If you think China (and India) will not support Russia against the Europeans, then IMO you are very mistaken.  

2 hours ago, NativeBob said:

He will sabotage anything as long as money are flowing in his and his EU mentors. Who gives **** about ppl dying. it is all about money and the most corrupt gynecologist ever.
Whoever writes whatever, who cares? 

I agree - Zelensky is the current fake puppet leader of a corrupted fake regime in a fake country. But Trump has no choice other than to have negotiations conducted with/through him due to the Biden era support that has emboldened his regime. The western media is not telling half the truth about Ukraine - nowhere near it.  

1 hour ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

It is clear at this point Trump could end all of humanitys ills, make everyone on earth billionaires that live forever in a paradise and the forum left will be like.....wah wah wah Trump

 

Beyond ridiculous at this point. For newcomers its worth pointing out the same people wigging out about Ukraine/Russia peace are the very same that assured us the lableak was a conspiracy, the laptop was Russian disinformation, the vaxes were 100% effective, and open border is a secure border and on and on and on. Just wrong at every turn and here we are with their more wars and $$ for little Z narrative.

 

You forgot to mention the idiots that voted for Brexit.

1 hour ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

It is clear at this point Trump could end all of humanitys ills, make everyone on earth billionaires that live forever in a paradise and the forum left will be like.....wah wah wah Trump

 

Beyond ridiculous at this point. For newcomers its worth pointing out the same people wigging out about Ukraine/Russia peace are the very same that assured us the lableak was a conspiracy, the laptop was Russian disinformation, the vaxes were 100% effective, and open border is a secure border and on and on and on. Just wrong at every turn and here we are with their more wars and $$ for little Z narrative.

 

1 hour ago, sharot724 said:

 

Ukraine Says It'll Keep Hitting Russian Oil Sites Even If US Cuts Intelligence—"It Will Be Harder, But It Will Continue"

Courage the Euros need to find as they are the next War for Russia

Total rubbish - Russia always wanted Ukraine to remain separate from NATO - as was agreed in 1990s. Putin invaded as a 'police action' not to conquer Ukraine, but to liberate the Eastern Regions of Ukraine that had supported the illegally removed Russian President.  Russia could have blown Western Ukraine away in a few weeks - but that would have killed millions and NATO would have got involved for sure.  Russia will not not give up the territory it has won and that is in spite of Europe throwing $billions of military support (except personnel) at Ukraine, and the application of many years of trade and financial sanctions. The time is coming for Europe and USA to walk away - the issue only becomes if they most of Ukraine, or only the pro-Russian Eastern Regions. 

 

4 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Total rubbish - Russia always wanted Ukraine to remain separate from NATO - as was agreed in 1990s. Putin invaded as a 'police action' not to conquer Ukraine, but to liberate the Eastern Regions of Ukraine that had supported the illegally removed Russian President.  Russia could have blown Western Ukraine away in a few weeks - but that would have killed millions and NATO would have got involved for sure.  Russia will not not give up the territory it has won and that is in spite of Europe throwing $billions of military support (except personnel) at Ukraine, and the application of many years of trade and financial sanctions. The time is coming for Europe and USA to walk away - the issue only becomes if they most of Ukraine, or only the pro-Russian Eastern Regions. 

 

 My 
president is a coward but the Europeans know they are next in Vlad's plan 

Expect the worst

1 hour ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

It is clear at this point Trump could end all of humanitys ills, make everyone on earth billionaires that live forever in a paradise and the forum left will be like.....wah wah wah Trump

 

Beyond ridiculous at this point. For newcomers its worth pointing out the same people wigging out about Ukraine/Russia peace are the very same that assured us the lableak was a conspiracy, the laptop was Russian disinformation, the vaxes were 100% effective, and open border is a secure border and on and on and on. Just wrong at every turn and here we are with their more wars and $$ for little Z narrative.

The majority of members on this forum are not correct frequently, and are often very very wrong.  And yet they still maintain their views and behaviours - I have no idea why they do that - honestly - I have no idea at all why they cannot 'adjust' to the new reality. That reality is that the woke liberal globalist leaders are being removed from power all over the world - bit by bit, country by country. Because - when the woke socialists are in power everything goes to hell in a handbasket - just look at UK and Australia and Canada over the last few years. The unelected woke globalist bureaucrats in Europe who have taken control over the elected politicians are prepared to go to war to maintain their control - but hopefully they will be removed before they can do to much more damage, or start WW3.    

Just now, sharot724 said:

 My president is a coward but the Europeans know they are next in Vlad's plan 

Expect the worst

People like you said the same during Covid - parroting the official narrative - WRONG then and WRONG now. 

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

People like you said the same during Covid - parroting the official narrative - WRONG then and WRONG now. 

 Total BS but at least you went wacky Great joke comment

2 hours ago, Hummin said:

 

He is not lying, it is written by smart people. Smarter than Dons Team at least

we know the orange guy get outsmarted at any corner when dealing with anybody but I was expecting "some" of his advisers to be smarter then accepting a document written by the Orcs and present it as i was theirs, the little credibility they may had have no longer exist, this guy has a good explanation of the actual state of the USA governed by a wannabe king/dictator/autocrat

 

It may feel like a rip in the time-space continuum. On one side of the tear, there’s a universe in which America is run by a wannabe king who uses the invasion of an ally as an opportunity for profit, who lies, cheats and backstabs his friends. 

 

The answer, according to a senior Western source intimately involved in the real-world security of Europe and the UK, is to “just tell him to f*** off”.

 

Trump’s 28-point plan for “peace” in Ukraine was cooked up between Steve Witkoff, his envoy to the Middle East, and Moscow. Witkoff is witless. He uses his personal cell phone on trips to Moscow and Tel Aviv, where its contents are doubtless plundered in real time.

 

 

Trump’s ‘peace’ ultimatum leaves Europe and Ukraine with just one choice

 

https://au.yahoo.com/news/only-one-thing-europe-ukraine-123514423.html

 

10 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Total rubbish - Russia always wanted Ukraine to remain separate from NATO - as was agreed in 1990s. Putin invaded as a 'police action' not to conquer Ukraine, but to liberate the Eastern Regions of Ukraine that had supported the illegally removed Russian President.  Russia could have blown Western Ukraine away in a few weeks - but that would have killed millions and NATO would have got involved for sure.  Russia will not not give up the territory it has won and that is in spite of Europe throwing $billions of military support (except personnel) at Ukraine, and the application of many years of trade and financial sanctions. The time is coming for Europe and USA to walk away - the issue only becomes if they most of Ukraine, or only the pro-Russian Eastern Regions. 

 

Putin sends his regards, well done!

I turned this thread into a Leonard Cohen song via Claude and Suno 4.5. 

 

https://suno.com/song/0b106686-d633-4a89-84a9-1ddcff9e1765