Thai Banks To Start Charging For Atm Withdrawals ...

[aurelius]

Aurelius,

If you don't mind, could you elaborate a bit on this cryptic message?

"Don't forget there are card portolios for Tesco, Central etc who are not ATM Pool members, even if BAY/GE is - this may be a reason that they haven't moved yet. I believe that local AEON cards are being treated as foreign cards because they are not a member of the Pool"

I don't know what a "portolios" or an "AEON" is, but if I understand your message -- it sounds like you're saying that all a wayward Farang would need to do is obtain one of these things and they would be able to avoid the new confiscatory fee forever!

Thanks in advance for any insights.

I think he means that some local Thai cards ie AEON & Tesco etc are hit by this fee as they are not in the ATM pool together so there may be some unhappy Thais out there also hit with this fee.

Sorry - not very clear - intended meaning was "portfolio's" - if I recall correctly GE manages the credit card portfolios for Tesco customers and for Central group. But they are not a member of the ATM Pool. Their partner BAY is. So following the logic, I would think that GE would be putting pressure on BAY not to implement this fee because their customers will be charged it for what otherwise seems to be a regular domestic transaction <<my speculation>>.

AEON is a Japanese non-bank financial institution which is not a member of the pool. It mainly seems to issue mastercards to people who borrow (lots of personal loans and store credit for buying the latest LCD player etc) - sorry - no deposit accounts. But it also operates some of its own ATMs and Deposit machines so people who have their personal loans can get cash and pay their bills - if their customers use the AEON atms, then they are probably ok, but if those people use an ATM pool machine then their thai-issued card will be treated like a foreign card and will attract a fee.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

I seems that all of you are assuming that you would get the same exchange rate regardless of which bank you withdraw from at any point in time.

I think however, that the rates you get at the ATM are different for every bank, just as they would differ at exchange booths of different banks for converting physical cash notes or traveler's cheques.

Some of you assume that you get the interbank spot exchange rate when you do an ATM withdrawal, but I think it would be more accurate to use the bank's telegraphic transfer (TT) rate, which is slightly worse than the interbank rate; the bank profits from the difference. You can't normally get the interbank exchange rate unless you are a bank yourself.

Consider then the following hypothetical situation in which Siam City Bank gives a better TT exchange rate than Kasikorn, but has a 150 THB fee:

Bank			TT rate  amount  fee  amount+fee  expected total debit
Siam City Bank  35.29	20000   150  20150	   570.9832814
Kasikorn Bank   35	   20000   0	20000	   571.4285714

You can see that despite the fee, Siam City Bank still would save you (a little) money because of the better rate.

Before withdrawing any cash from an ATM, you can compare the TT exchange rates of 10 Thai banks at this web site: http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net

You can then calculate (like in the example above) using a spreadsheet, accounting for all fees, what the expected amounts deducted from your account would be. Note that the actual amount deducted may differ from your calculated amount, due to things such as the originating bank cutting some percentage off the interbank exchange rate ("foreign exchange fee") and/or other middlemen along the chain taking their slices of the pie.

Note also that you should check your account a day or two after the actual transaction. If you check on the same day, you may think that you got a very good rate, but the entry may just be a temporary placeholder. It's only after the transaction has been fully processed the next day that you'd see the true and final amount deducted.

That calculation would be useful if it were at all relevant.

Fortunately it isn't.

The rate that you receive at the ATM is not set by the bank and so bears no relation to what is posted on their website as exchange rates.

The rate you receive at the ATM is set by VISA/Mastercard, so theoretically will be the same at any bank.

Everyone wants a slice of the cake.

VISA make money by charges fees for the use of their system and fees for International cross currency transactions.

Someone came up with the idea of depriving VISA/Mastercard of a portion of their revenue by creating a 'service'; Dynamic Currency Conversion.

Some Thai banks took to this with relish.

In response Visa/Mastercard altered their charging structure to reflect this loss.

In addition, the Thai banks may be looking to re-capitalise at our expense.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Jiu-Jitsu

[Mali1964]

I seems that all of you are assuming that you would get the same exchange rate regardless of which bank you withdraw from at any point in time.

I think however, that the rates you get at the ATM are different for every bank, just as they would differ at exchange booths of different banks for converting physical cash notes or traveler's cheques.

Some of you assume that you get the interbank spot exchange rate when you do an ATM withdrawal, but I think it would be more accurate to use the bank's telegraphic transfer (TT) rate, which is slightly worse than the interbank rate; the bank profits from the difference. You can't normally get the interbank exchange rate unless you are a bank yourself.

Consider then the following hypothetical situation in which Siam City Bank gives a better TT exchange rate than Kasikorn, but has a 150 THB fee:

Bank			TT rate  amount  fee  amount+fee  expected total debit
 Siam City Bank  35.29	20000   150  20150	   570.9832814
 Kasikorn Bank   35	   20000   0	20000	   571.4285714

You can see that despite the fee, Siam City Bank still would save you (a little) money because of the better rate.

Before withdrawing any cash from an ATM, you can compare the TT exchange rates of 10 Thai banks at this web site: http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net

You can then calculate (like in the example above) using a spreadsheet, accounting for all fees, what the expected amounts deducted from your account would be. Note that the actual amount deducted may differ from your calculated amount, due to things such as the originating bank cutting some percentage off the interbank exchange rate ("foreign exchange fee") and/or other middlemen along the chain taking their slices of the pie.

Note also that you should check your account a day or two after the actual transaction. If you check on the same day, you may think that you got a very good rate, but the entry may just be a temporary placeholder. It's only after the transaction has been fully processed the next day that you'd see the true and final amount deducted.

That calculation would be useful if it were at all relevant.

Fortunately it isn't.

The rate that you receive at the ATM is not set by the bank and so bears no relation to what is posted on their website as exchange rates.

The rate you receive at the ATM is set by VISA/Mastercard, so theoretically will be the same at any bank.

Everyone wants a slice of the cake.

VISA make money by charges fees for the use of their system and fees for International cross currency transactions.

Someone came up with the idea of depriving VISA/Mastercard of a portion of their revenue by creating a 'service'; Dynamic Currency Conversion.

Some Thai banks took to this with relish.

In response Visa/Mastercard altered their charging structure to reflect this loss.

In addition, the Thai banks may be looking to re-capitalise at our expense.

This site is just not updated fast enough i've checked it over for months now & your still in the lap of the gods as to the rate you will get sorry i will stick with the fee free banks than gamble with the in accurate information from that site.

I mean take a look now most banks are days behind.

[loong]

This site is just not updated fast enough i've checked it over for months now & your still in the lap of the gods as to the rate you will get sorry i will stick with the fee free banks than gamble with the in accurate information from that site.

I mean take a look now most banks are days behind.

And the Rich bank has 3 different rates?????

[jfchandler]

Re Kasikorn, I don't know if they are just slow, or they've made a conscious decision not to impose the 150 baht fee. My guess is it's the former, but I'm hoping it's the latter reason.

Nonetheless, I had never used a Kasikorn Bank or their ATMs before this whole situation arose, although I knew they already had a good reputation as being farang-friendly when it came to opening new accounts.

If time passes and they don't implement the fee, I would plan on migrating my banking business away from BKK and SCB, and to Kasikorn. They have good accounts, many branch locations and ATMs, and also offer their special debit card for making online purchases safely.

In my case, if Kasikorn doesn't implement the fee, that would be the straw that broke the camel's back in getting me to dump BKK and SCB in favor of Kasikorn for my future banking here.

If Kasikorn and the other holdouts thus far do eventually impose the 150 baht fee, then I'll limit my ATM use here to U.S. cards that fully reimburse the fee and, if possible, cover the 1% VISA/MC cut as well.

I don't pay ATM fees in the U.S., and I have no intention of paying them in Thailand.

One other important point: Historically, for those old enough to remember, when ATMs were introduced in the U.S., banks pushed customers to start using them INSTEAD of branch transactions, because presumably ATMs are much cheaper in handling the transactions they do than a bank teller performing the same transaction in branch.

So, for me, it's pretty ironic now, in the midst of the banking meltdown worldwide (though not so much in Thailand) for the banks to come along and start charging extortionate fees for ATM use. Every time you the customer uses an ATM to do something instead of going into the branch to deal with a teller, you are SAVING the bank money, not costing them.

In the years I've lived here, about the only time I've gone into bank branches is to set up and open new accounts. Everything after that has been ATMs for deposits, withdrawals, etc etc... If the Thai banks really want to push their foreign customers into avoiding ATMs, they're shooting themselves in the foot cost-wise.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

This site is just not updated fast enough i've checked it over for months now & your still in the lap of the gods as to the rate you will get sorry i will stick with the fee free banks than gamble with the in accurate information from that site.

I mean take a look now most banks are days behind.

You have replied to the wrong post.

[khunjake]

This is a strategic move from K-Banks view. They have always been farang friendly and now by not going along with this bullshit fee, they are figuring that more farang customers from other fee-imposing banks will move their deposits to K-Bank. Well it is working as I personally moves a nice chunk yesterday from on offending bank to K-Bank. I plan to moving more over to K-Bank should they continue to work with expats and not against them.

If time passes and they don't implement the fee, I would plan on migrating my banking business away from BKK and SCB, and to Kasikorn. They have good accounts, many branch locations and ATMs, and also offer their special debit card for making online purchases safely.

In my case, if Kasikorn doesn't implement the fee, that would be the straw that broke the camel's back in getting me to dump BKK and SCB in favor of Kasikorn for my future banking here.

[hackerthai]

According to the Thanchart website, The Thai Bankers Association has decided that cardholders of foreign banks will be charged 150 Baht for each withdrawal by debit or credit card, effective April 17th.

Not good news.

Are there any other ways to get money from a foreign bank (I have a debit and credit card) to Thailand that costs less than 150 Baht which Siam Bank is now charging? I can wire funds from my bank but that costs 50 .

There must be a way around this. Any ideas?

If not I will accept it /

[katia8]

I was working in Visa 1year ago - now living in TH.

First of all the currency rates are fixed in visa/MC system and that is why banks exchange rate dont usually affect the amount of money you get from ATM.

Exeption - your bank(issuer) can do exchange for you, but this is very rare - only some russian banks are doing it issuing card with is actually multicurency card.

Second - i think that 150 bath fee is annaounced becouse banks want to push you to use your card more often in shops than you will be using your cash. Becouse it wil give them much more money - that wil give them at least 2% of every transaction you do (that is billions! behind all tourist spendings in TH).

Using Swift transaction with opening local account is not a great option - you need to put your money on card balance - so no income for months they will be on that balance. So you pay twice 30$ + %(1% of 40000 baths is 400 bath lost if your annual is 12%). So to tranfer 40000 bath you just pay 1400 baths. 2 ATMS transactions for getting 40000bth is 200 bath (0,5% rate your bank) + 4$ fixed (210) (your bank - they may charge 5$! per transaction)+ 300 bath to thai bank=710 bath. So it is 2 times cheaper. (but still very expensive =(

But there are one option which should be explored - VisatoVisa money transfer. That will cost less than Swift/ATM. All you need is get thai card open Visa card in your bank (not necessary in your name). Then you need somebody who will do that transaction in your bank ATM (so banks do it some banks dont - check it before doing it). The money will go in your thai card with minimum comission of 2%. Masimum anount is 300 USD per transaction. Some banks even has internet banking wich can do it.

Hope it helps!

[thecatman]

Are there any other ways to get money from a foreign bank (I have a debit and credit card) to Thailand that costs less than 150 Baht which Siam Bank is now charging? I can wire funds from my bank but that costs 50 .

There must be a way around this. Any ideas?

If not I will accept it /

Go into a bank, any bank, armed with your passport and card(s) and you can make an 'over the counter' withdrawal.

This is mentioned somewhere on the previous pages of this thread.

[SurfRider]

"If Kasikorn and the other holdouts thus far do eventually impose the 150 baht fee, then I'll limit my ATM use here to U.S. cards that fully reimburse the fee and, if possible, cover the 1% VISA/MC cut as well."

If you locate such a bank, I hope you'll let all of us know the name.

I researched that issue thoroughly over four years ago when I selected E-Trade because they promised no Exchange, Transfer, or Service fees and they have kept that promise up until now. I have never paid even one Baht to transfer money from the U.S. to Siam in almost 5 years.

Earlier in this thread I posted where E-Trade has specifically said that they will not cover the new confiscatory Thai fee.

I'm not aware of any U.S. bank that would cover the new fee, but I'm always willing to learn of miracles

Edited April 26, 2009 by SurfTrader

[JimGant]

The rate that you receive at the ATM is not set by the bank and so bears no relation to what is posted on their website as exchange rates. The rate you receive at the ATM is set by VISA/Mastercard, so theoretically will be the same at any bank.

Correct. See the post a hundred pages back, where the poster first discovered the 150bt fee, by hitting several ATMs within 10 minutes -- and getting the same exchange rate. No surprise, as he used the same ATM card at each location. Different cards, by different issuers, would have had different results.

Exchanging money in a bank lobby -- or wiring/EFTing money, where you get the TT rate -- will get you different exchange rates per individual bank. Not with ATMs, at least over the Cirrus or Plus networks (well, ok, unless there are different fixed fees at the ATM owner's end).

[phaethon]

Second - i think that 150 bath fee is annaounced becouse banks want to push you to use your card more often in shops than you will be using your cash. Becouse it wil give them much more money - that wil give them at least 2% of every transaction you do (that is billions! behind all tourist spendings in TH).

But the 150THB charge is levied by the ATM operating bank, not the card issuers (which are foreign cards to boot), unless you are suggesting that Thai banks are trying to help-out their foreign colleagues..?

[Mali1964]

Not sure if i've missed a post but isn't Auyudaya (spelling) bank still fee free or as someone got confirmation their charging now.

This is where a new pinned topic would be good just for confirmation of who charges what & some basics on your home bank idea's to save fee's.

[thecatman]

Not sure if i've missed a post but isn't Auyudaya (spelling) bank still fee free or as someone got confirmation their charging now.

This is where a new pinned topic would be good just for confirmation of who charges what & some basics on your home bank idea's to save fee's.

Also, it was reported early doors that The Government Savings Bank were not charging from their ATM's. We could also do with an update on this if anybody happens to know.

[jfchandler]

As of Sunday, Kasikorn and Ayudhya were still fee-free... Someone else needs to report in re Gov. Savings Bank, or any other Thai banks that have NOT begun charging 150 baht per.

BKK Bank, Siam Commercial and Krung Thai have begun charging the fee, and thus are now on my (and hopefully your) "don't patronize" list, at least as far as their ATMs are concerned.

[jfchandler]

Surfrider and everyone else, there are many U.S. banks that have accounts that will enable you to avoid the 150 baht fee here (avoid=be fully reimbursed for it by your U.S. bank) in the event no-fee Thai options like Kasikorn and Ayudhya disappear at some point.

Although the big, major U.S. banks typically won't do it, many smaller and regional banks, credit unions and even brokerages want your banking business and thus offer regular checking and savings accounts that do various of the following:

--reimburse all ATM fees worldwide without limit.

--reimburse ATM fees worldwide up to $XX per month (typically $25 or $30).

--reimburse ATM fees in the U.S. in full or part, but end up doing the same for foreign transactions even though their policy doesn't say they do so.

If you're motivated to find them, and search the Internet through banking resources, they're out there to be had, regular banks and credit unions, fully federally insured, nothing speculative or shakey...

I posted the details of some of these kinds of accounts earlier in this thread on page nine.

But for those who have forgotten or are new to this topic, here's the link to the prior post. Those are just a sampling, there are many more to be had.

PS - It would be helpful to know...for those folks who have already paid the 150 baht ATM fee here (because I haven't), when you look at your online banking account, is the fee showing up as a separate line item/fee, or is it simply being rolled into the total of your withdrawal.

That's an important consideration because, generally speaking, it's much easier for the U.S. banks and accounts I've described above to automatically reimburse the fee when it's handled as a separate fee item. When it's rolled into your total withdrawal without being broken out as a separate item, their systems don't necessarily know there's a fee there. In those cases, often, you need/have to save your ATM receipt showing the fee and send it/them to your home bank, which can be a bit of a hassle and expense. Hopefully, the Thai banks that are charging the fee are billing it as a separate item from your regular ATM withdrawals.

"If Kasikorn and the other holdouts thus far do eventually impose the 150 baht fee, then I'll limit my ATM use here to U.S. cards that fully reimburse the fee and, if possible, cover the 1% VISA/MC cut as well."

If you locate such a bank, I hope you'll let all of us know the name.

I researched that issue thoroughly over four years ago when I selected E-Trade because they promised no Exchange, Transfer, or Service fees and they have kept that promise up until now. I have never paid even one Baht to transfer money from the U.S. to Siam in almost 5 years.

Earlier in this thread I posted where E-Trade has specifically said that they will not cover the new confiscatory Thai fee.

I'm not aware of any U.S. bank that would cover the new fee, but I'm always willing to learn of miracles

[SurfRider]

jfchandler,

With all due respect, how current is your information?

In the linked post you stated:

"I tend to like checking or savings accounts that pay high interest (4-5% in today's environment)"

E-Trade paid 5.01% less than a year ago in their premium savings accounts, but due to the worldwide financial crisis and plummeting yields everywhere, that's now been reduced to 1.20%

Here's a link to current one-year CD rates -- max is 2.71% -- how could any bank afford to pay a 4-5% yield on checking or savings, when the people who are willing to embargo their funds for one year are receiving less than 3%?

http://www.bankrate.com/funnel/cd-investme...Ds&prods=15

"If you're motivated to find them, and search the Internet through banking resources, they're out there to be had, regular banks and credit unions, fully federally insured, nothing speculative or shakey..."

I've looked and haven't found them -- if you care to reveal any secrets, I'm sure that many here would be more than pleased with your generosity

[jfchandler]

Surfrider, all the info I posted above is absolutely current, but you're mixing two different, separate pieces of information I've said..

First... you mention my comment about preferring bank accounts that pay 4-5% interest. I do, and there are still many FDIC-insured accounts known as "rewards checking" that are paying those rates today, and in many cases include a feature of reimbursing ATM fees either nationwide or worldwide. The caveat is....to get that interest, you need to use that account and its debit card to make anywhere from 10 to 15 debit purchases of any amount per month. You don't pay any fee or anything extra for those, so it's really just using your debit card for everyday expenses like grocery shopping and such.

If you're not familiar with those kinds of accounts, here is a web site where you can learn all about them and see the rates and details about dozens of these kinds of accounts. They're all from regular U.S. banks that are FDIC insured (though the offering banks won't be the biggie ones like BofA and CitiBank that have lost fortunes...)

Second and separately, in response to the advent of the 150 baht fee here, I posted the details above about various accounts that reimburse ATM fees... Some of those, like First Arkansas Bank and Trust, are rewards accounts with high interest AND reimburse ATM fees... Some like the Schwab accounts don't pay high interest, aren't "rewards" accounts, but DO reimburse ATM fees worldwide. I posted web links to all those accounts above.

In both cases, all the info I've posted and the accounts I've mentioned are accurate and current... In my case, I want to keep, and do keep, larger non-CD balance in a rewards account that pays 4-5% interest, and I use that account for routine debit card purchases. Then separately, I'll keep a different account that fully reimburses ATM fees but keep a low balance in that account. That's the one I'll use for routine ATM cash withdrawals.

Until recently, I cared only about the interest rates of my accounts. Now, with the advent of the 150 baht ATM fee, I'm shifting a bit more focus to make sure I also have sufficient accounts that fully reimburse all ATM fees worldwide. It's really no problem, since you can do both and just keep different accounts and use them for different purposes.

[david96]

HSBC Australia charges an International Cirrus Fee of AUD 4.50 on a Debit card at an overseas ATM.

If you go into an overseas bank to carry out the transaction you may be charged an overseas tranaction charge. You may be charged for over the counter withdrawals in Australia also.

These charges will show up on your statement.

[longtom]

Thanks a lot for all the comments to my question, some valuable information indeed. One more thought:

It seems obvious that in a normal free market environment, one bank would start charging a lower fee, e.g. 100 Baht only (why give it for free when they can make some money?). If they all keep on charging the same fee (assuming that K-Bank and Ayudhaya will follow suit), wouldn't that spell cartel and open the banks to litigation?

Edited April 27, 2009 by longtom

[Chaimai]

Thanks a lot for all the comments to my question, some valuable information indeed. One more thought:

It seems obvious that in a normal free market environment, one bank would start charging a lower fee, e.g. 100 Baht only (why give it for free when they can make some money?). If they all keep on charging the same fee (assuming that K-Bank and Ayudhaya will follow suit), wouldn't that spell cartel and open the banks to litigation?

Is 'cartel' illegal in Thailand ?

You couldn't prove a case in England, you would have no chance in Thailand. In any event the Thai Bankers Association have approved the charge 'up to 150 baht'

[jgm005]

Used a Government Savings Bank ATM at BTS Asoke at 12:00/27/April. 1st one I've seen around. NO FEE and exchange rate was 35.37. Rather old machine for the keys are sticky so be careful if you use it. Is on the left as you go up from MTR to BTS to the right of an exchange booth.

[Nowhereman60]

Sorry for my mistake the other day the exchange rate was 35.28 not 25.28. And I checked today it is Kasikorn Bank but my online statement still shows Thai Famer Bank. Again sorry for the mistake.

[phaethon]

Approx Noon today, Kasikorn inside Tesco-Lotus @ On Nut BTS - No fee.

[Mali1964]

Used a Government Savings Bank ATM at BTS Asoke at 12:00/27/April. 1st one I've seen around. NO FEE and exchange rate was 35.37. Rather old machine for the keys are sticky so be careful if you use it. Is on the left as you go up from MTR to BTS to the right of an exchange booth.

LIST OF FEE FREE BANKS AS OF 27/04/2009

1 Kasikorn Bank http://www.kasikornbank.com/

2 Government Savings Bank http://www.krungsri.com/en/index.aspx

3 Bank of Ayudhya http://www.krungsri.com/en/index.aspx

Links for those not familiar with the Logo's on the ATM's i think i have them right ?

[Mali1964]

Sorry for my mistake the other day the exchange rate was 35.28 not 25.28. And I checked today it is Kasikorn Bank but my online statement still shows Thai Famer Bank. Again sorry for the mistake.

No probs mate just thought the dollar had crashed for a minute there

At least it cleared up this name issue that i & others had never heard of thanks.

[Mali1964]

While my misses is waiting for my Nationwide cash card she as one of these pre paid Mastercards, well it was my turn today to try out the ATM told her Kasikorn or Government bank as we have both in the village i gets a call ATM say card no good

Just rang the bank they say all their cards are blocked until further notice in Thailand due to skimming but have asked i go in branch so i await her phone call to say she as the cash.

What happens if all banks follow suit then the cashiers will be busy that will get around the fee though for everyone.

[thecatman]

LIST OF FEE FREE BANKS AS OF 27/04/2009

1 Kasikorn Bank http://www.kasikornbank.com/

2 Government Savings Bank http://www.krungsri.com/en/index.aspx

3 Bank of Ayudhya http://www.krungsri.com/en/index.aspx

Links for those not familiar with the Logo's on the ATM's i think i have them right ?

Hey Mali1964, Cheers for the update, just that the Government Savings Bank link is incorrect (you've duplicated the Bank Of Ayudhya one).

Here goes: The Government Savings Bank ATM's and logo looks like this.

[david96]

Are foreigners who have bank accounts with debit and credit cards which are not on US and UK banks

and financial institutions affected?

Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Singapore etc?