Thai Police say no high-level politicians found involved in rice mortgage graft yet

[northernjohn]

Many on here wouldn't bother about evidence , procedure, trial. Pronouncements of guilt already made, just move straight to the penalty phase. True proponents of fairness and real democracy.

sounds like a good plan.

there are many cases that will cost the nations billions to try and there is no doubt about the guilt. 100's of u tubes showing the same thing from many different angles can not be wrong.

If there is room for doubt send them to court.

while we are on the subject (you brought it up) what is a real democracy and where can I find one. The states had the Supreme Court elect Bush the majority of the voters wanted Gore. Here in Thailand at least 52% of the people did not want Yingluck. I guess now that I think of it North Korea is a true Democracy. Not sure if the Thais want that. You maybe but most people no.

[smedly]

True. I just asked Zooheecock to explain his "....guilty verdicts expected by midday."

It's a joke. The judicial system is so politicized and so absurdly one-sided that when it comes to the 'crimes' of Peua Thai, a lack of evidence is absolutely no obstacle to a guilty verdict.

yes your post is absolutely rubbish - maybe you can show a few examples instead of just churning out dung

[Somtamnication]

Yet.......they will.

[Chris Lawrence]

The concept of the rice plan was a good one. However changes in world rice markets affected the price offered.

I understand that the information is pointing more to those red culprits. Unfortunately information on the corrupt is still coming in from the yellow angels.

How dare a democratic government develop business relationships outside the respected, trusted in house, local business networks, old-boys, and the Mr 10+ percenters that the Democrats would have developed and dealt with. The Democrats networks have all this catered for, with payments being more anonymous and sophisticated then any program the Pheu Thai party could have developed. Plus any over-payments would have gone to the right people, not Yinglucks crew.

Plus there were more whistle blowers in the civil service keeping their hand on it, that knew when and how to get blown.

[robblok]

The concept of the rice plan was a good one. However changes in world rice markets affected the price offered.

I understand that the information is pointing more to those red culprits. Unfortunately information on the corrupt is still coming in from the yellow angels.

How dare a democratic government develop business relationships outside the respected, trusted in house, local business networks, old-boys, and the Mr 10+ percenters that the Democrats would have developed and dealt with. The Democrats networks have all this catered for, with payments being more anonymous and sophisticated then any program the Pheu Thai party could have developed. Plus any over-payments would have gone to the right people, not Yinglucks crew.

Plus there were more whistle blowers in the civil service keeping their hand on it, that knew when and how to get blown.

Concept a good one Only the really die hard red supporters or those with little gray matter still support it.

- The poorest farmers subsistence farmers never got helped as they did not sell the rice.

- Wealthy big farmers were helped while it was not needed for them

- The moment the program was made public prices of rent for farmland and fertilizer went up

- Rice from other countries got imported

- Major losses were incurred 500 billion (conservative) while a positive result was budgeted

- People who told the truth about the program were bullied and transferred

- GTG deals were faked (proven) and the difference pocketed by the Shins (alleged for now)

- Thailand lost its place as seller of rice

- Quality of rice went down

- Farmers did not get paid on time (even before the problems started)

- Farmers killed themselves because of it

- When the government went into caretaker mode they did not make sure they could keep on paying the farmers (incompetence)

It would have been so much easier and less corruption and less cost to pay farmers by the amount of land they had with a maximum so the poor farmers would have benefited and not the rich ones. This would also not have led to an increase in fertilizer and land costs. However the scam possibility would be so much less so that is why this is not done.

PTP = corruption.

[Dogmatix]

According to Pol. Gen. Ek, so far no high-level politicians or civil servant have been found to be involved with the irregularities.

Time for Pol Gen Ek to start a new career swotting mosquitoes in National Police HQ.

[Dogmatix]

The Prime Minister is the de facto chair of the Cabinet of Thailand. The appointment and removal of Ministers can only be made with their advice. As the leader of the government the Prime Minister is therefore ultimately responsible for the failings and performance of their Ministers and the government as a whole. So they don't need to be high level. Khun Yingluck, the buck stops with you.

You suggest that Khun Yingluck was all powerful yet when she decided to move a senior official from his post, she was judged to have acted ultra vires and removed from her post. Are you sure the buck stops with Yingluck or are you just guilty of wishful thinking?

As Mosha said, the PM under the 2007 constitution had the power to remove ministers. She did in fact remove the Commerce Minister (Boonsong) after he was named by the NACC as a suspect in the rice pledging scam but the sacking was clearly not aimed at stopping the corruption - just ejecting tainted goods and making it easier to cover up the fraud with him gone.

[Lupatria]

Some poeple would not spot an elephant in their kitchen even while sitting on it

[Baerboxer]

They seem to make big progress with 10 out of 250 cases looked at so far.

And don't we all know that the police never find any PTP politicians involved in anything illegal. Wait until the army conduct some investigations

Just like they couldn't catch any attackers and murderers of the anti-PTP protesters either.

Surprising what might happen when the army, NACC and some independent auditors get involved.

[Trembly]

Not surprising as this investigation is more focusing on the "nuts and bolts" of the scam. The thing is not to prove that they were involved, but more that they were aware of it.

I wonder what Supa has to say about this though?

Oh that's right she won't dribble information out as the investigation by the NACC is progressing. The NACC will wait until it has fully completed its investigation and present its findings.

That is the one I am looking forward to.

I agree.

The key word being 'YET'.

The NACC are looking at the whole structure of money movement and where all of it has ended up.

The police findings have just added to the paper trail and unearthed previously unmentioned techniques of fraud.

The bigger picture is that claims were made at the highest government levels, and that includes Finance and Commerce ministers releasing statements of which will soon be proven lies.

The government have had the luxury of 7 months to hide stuff and destroy all incriminating evidence that points directly at the upper structures.

But rest assured that missing evidence (and there must be lots) will be just as guilt bearing as a smoking gun.

It is the money that can't be hidden or destroyed as it always leaves a paper trail and the majority of the missing cash will have been transferred electronically... you can't just carry hundreds of billions of baht around, and even if you could, the paper trail would stop at YOU.... All money is documented right up to it hitting a person's palm.

I wonder why has the story about the 80 billion that went to Hong Kong via the shadow banking terminal in China town gone quiet. Has the journalist who uncovered that been silenced? Perhaps the NACC has put a gag on it pending investigation . . .

Edited May 30, 2014 by Trembly

[Baerboxer]

The Prime Minister is the de facto chair of the Cabinet of Thailand. The appointment and removal of Ministers can only be made with their advice. As the leader of the government the Prime Minister is therefore ultimately responsible for the failings and performance of their Ministers and the government as a whole. So they don't need to be high level. Khun Yingluck, the buck stops with you.

You suggest that Khun Yingluck was all powerful yet when she decided to move a senior official from his post, she was judged to have acted ultra vires and removed from her post. Are you sure the buck stops with Yingluck or are you just guilty of wishful thinking?

As PM Yingluck had the authority to dismiss and appoint cabinet ministers, Which she did, arguably as instructed by her brother. But officially she did that and is on record as saying that they were all her decisions and she was not under her brothers control.

However, she was not entitled to remove a senior civil servant from his post, particularly purely to allow a relative to be put into a key post. She was convicted of that. appealed, was convicted again and then appealed to the Supreme court and appealed again, She was then convicted by the CC for doing this for self benefit which is why she was removed.

Her whole premiership was a fiasco - non attendance in parliament, no debates or discussions, unaware of cabinet moves planned by her brother, failure to attend committee meetings, failure to actually bother to do her job. She swore an oath when accepting this role, which she then simply ignored. She traveled, she designed lunch boxes for high speed trains, and she created a TV reality show for young ladies. Whoopee do. She was responsible but failed in reality to accept that responsibility.

So yes, the buck stops with her. She swore an oath accordingly and then ignored it. Now she's likely to face the consequences as she's not run away,

[Thailand]

Do hope,for the the sake of many TV members, that at least some high ranking politicians,of whichever party, are found to be "involved" or they will be most disappointed and have little to chunter on about.

[HOOD Robin]

Thank goodness the NACC is also looking into things!

You got that rite.

Sounds like another couple of high ranking police need transferring to an inactive post.

Did you mean ANOTHER inactive post ?

[Johnnie99]

The tiny little three letter word "yet" is so informative.

[ezzra]

Is this the NEW police saying that or the OLD police? coz the new police should know

better that such a scheme would not have been possible without some one/ones

very high up to allow this to happened.....

[Mondy]

So who appointed NACC? Do they want to find graft in the Yingluck circle of friends? And why doesn't the army bring in outside auditors so that Yingluck's followers don't scream frame up in the end?

[biggles45]

Does it really matter what they find? Thai politicians are not going to get any meaningful punishment, the ones at the top will all look after each other...it could be them next time

[EyesWideOpen]

Do hope,for the the sake of many TV members, that at least some high ranking politicians,of whichever party, are found to be "involved" or they will be most disappointed and have little to chunter on about.

Your hope will be in vain. No truly high ranking person is prosecuted here as far as I can

tell. The exception seems to have been Thaksin, and he chose doing a runner rather

than facing charges. I suspect that the people who stole the hundreds of billions of baht

in the rice scheme will spread some of the money around, and this issue will gently fade

away. If the military rounds up the actual people at the very top of this scheme and

throws them in jail, I will be completely flabbergasted. But Prayuth is throwing his weight

around, clearly showing there is a new sheriff in town, and the rules of the game may have changed.....

[pattayaorganic]

The concept of the rice plan was a good one. However changes in world rice markets affected the price offered.

I understand that the information is pointing more to those red culprits. Unfortunately information on the corrupt is still coming in from the yellow angels.

How dare a democratic government develop business relationships outside the respected, trusted in house, local business networks, old-boys, and the Mr 10+ percenters that the Democrats would have developed and dealt with. The Democrats networks have all this catered for, with payments being more anonymous and sophisticated then any program the Pheu Thai party could have developed. Plus any over-payments would have gone to the right people, not Yinglucks crew.

Plus there were more whistle blowers in the civil service keeping their hand on it, that knew when and how to get blown.

A good plan? What specific change to the world rice markets are you talking about? Taksin thought he could manipulate the global market for rice as a small percentage of total production is actually traded internationally. He built warehouses to withhold the rice from the market with the stupid hope that the price would go up. Well another failed attempt to corner a market as has been done in silver, etc. IT was a greedily designed devious plan that was doomed to fail from the beginning (check my posts made at the initial announcements). The only the thing the world market did was take advantage of Taksin's stupidity.

[bangrak]

The Prime Minister is the de facto chair of the Cabinet of Thailand. The appointment and removal of Ministers can only be made with their advice. As the leader of the government the Prime Minister is therefore ultimately responsible for the failings and performance of their Ministers and the government as a whole. So they don't need to be high level. Khun Yingluck, the buck stops with you.

You suggest that Khun Yingluck was all powerful yet when she decided to move a senior official from his post, she was judged to have acted ultra vires and removed from her post. Are you sure the buck stops with Yingluck or are you just guilty of wishful thinking?

Me think Mosha is not the one 'guilty'(?!) of wishfull thinking, and that you could be of des-information too, still wearing those red shades, are we?

[Mondy]

The concept of the rice plan was a good one. However changes in world rice markets affected the price offered.

I understand that the information is pointing more to those red culprits. Unfortunately information on the corrupt is still coming in from the yellow angels.

How dare a democratic government develop business relationships outside the respected, trusted in house, local business networks, old-boys, and the Mr 10+ percenters that the Democrats would have developed and dealt with. The Democrats networks have all this catered for, with payments being more anonymous and sophisticated then any program the Pheu Thai party could have developed. Plus any over-payments would have gone to the right people, not Yinglucks crew.

Plus there were more whistle blowers in the civil service keeping their hand on it, that knew when and how to get blown.

A good plan? What specific change to the world rice markets are you talking about? Taksin thought he could manipulate the global market for rice as a small percentage of total production is actually traded internationally. He built warehouses to withhold the rice from the market with the stupid hope that the price would go up. Well another failed attempt to corner a market as has been done in silver, etc. IT was a greedily designed devious plan that was doomed to fail from the beginning (check my posts made at the initial announcements). The only the thing the world market did was take advantage of Taksin's stupidity.

AND didn't "Yingluck's crew" advertise their scheme to the farmers(they told them 150% right) and OF COURSE the rest of the world? What do foreign rice producers do when they know you are going to drive the price up by withholding your rice supply? THEY GROW MORE RICE!! Can they bring them up on criminal stupidity charges?

[pkspeaker]

In reality there was very little 'corruption' in the rice pledging farm subsidy.. the notion that 'it incurred billions in losses' is a joke, it's a subsidy, of course 'it incurs losses'.. but ultimately the entire program was maybe 5% of the national budget-with most of this 'wasted money' going to poor farmers- under the Abhisit regime the rice subsidy was the 'Farmers Insurance' program, and what , an 'insurance' subsidy is going to have 0 graft, not-liklyand it was just as expensive as the pledging program.. The entire case against Yingluck and her commerce minister is based on the notion that they 'knew corruption was happening but did nothing to stop it'.. EVERY entitlement program is going to have some 'corruption', this article is proof that the 'corruption' wasn't that bad, just a few forged documents.

the entire smear campaign was just a tool for the establishment to sabotage the democratically elected government, notice how as soon as the military took over the farmers were immediately paid because the 'caretaker' government for 6 months was not allowed to pay them, legal restrictions, Banks refusing to give the govt short term loads, and rich Thai's affiliated with the pdrc threatening to run on any bank that loaned money to the government. If it hadn't been the rice pledging 'scheme' then the establishment would have made something else an 'isssue of corruption' like they could have said that there was cost overruns in infrastructure spending and this was 'corruption'.

[Bangmod]

Wait until the Army will look in the case and they find hundreds of guilty politicians and police chief's....

Best would have been to isolate the police(Red scum) and let the Army take over all their duties.

[Doc46]

Police say no high-level politicians found involved in rice mortgage graft yet...

....guilty verdicts expected by midday.

They are hiding that's why, they haven't found them,They know who they are.

[rubl]

In reality there was very little 'corruption' in the rice pledging farm subsidy.. the notion that 'it incurred billions in losses' is a joke, it's a subsidy, of course 'it incurs losses'.. but ultimately the entire program was maybe 5% of the national budget-with most of this 'wasted money' going to poor farmers- under the Abhisit regime the rice subsidy was the 'Farmers Insurance' program, and what , an 'insurance' subsidy is going to have 0 graft, not-liklyand it was just as expensive as the pledging program.. The entire case against Yingluck and her commerce minister is based on the notion that they 'knew corruption was happening but did nothing to stop it'.. EVERY entitlement program is going to have some 'corruption', this article is proof that the 'corruption' wasn't that bad, just a few forged documents.

the entire smear campaign was just a tool for the establishment to sabotage the democratically elected government, notice how as soon as the military took over the farmers were immediately paid because the 'caretaker' government for 6 months was not allowed to pay them, legal restrictions, Banks refusing to give the govt short term loads, and rich Thai's affiliated with the pdrc threatening to run on any bank that loaned money to the government. If it hadn't been the rice pledging 'scheme' then the establishment would have made something else an 'isssue of corruption' like they could have said that there was cost overruns in infrastructure spending and this was 'corruption'.

The RPPs positioned as profitable and 'only' needing a revolving funds for initial payments was a disaster. Even now we only seem to know that 500 billion Baht (i.e. 500,000,000,000) has been lost. Poor farmers still poor, some farmers only being paid after six or more months. No transparency neither responsibility by the Yingluck administration. Utterly criminally negligent.

The possible losses seem to approach the level which would have seen the deficit in the National Budget almost double for THREE years in a row. The wasted money, where is it? Till now no one knows. The only thing we know is that it is NOT with the poor farmers is was meant for.

The Abhisit government 'minimum price guarantee' payable directly to farmers let to complaints that it wasn't enough. Still it went directly to farmers.

The only campaign I see now it some people desperately trying to obfuscate, tell halftruths or even lies.

A Yingluck government which said mid-2013 to need only 270 billion Baht for 2013/2014 RPPS and to have the funding. Many months bills not paid till in December the caretaker government tried to borrow 'only' 130 billion Baht.

Now it seems to become clear why the suddenly 'blanket' amnesty bill covered not only Thaksin's last two years in/out of office, but even the first two years of Yingluck administration. They simply KNEW they would need it.

[robblok]

In reality there was very little 'corruption' in the rice pledging farm subsidy.. the notion that 'it incurred billions in losses' is a joke, it's a subsidy, of course 'it incurs losses'.. but ultimately the entire program was maybe 5% of the national budget-with most of this 'wasted money' going to poor farmers- under the Abhisit regime the rice subsidy was the 'Farmers Insurance' program, and what , an 'insurance' subsidy is going to have 0 graft, not-liklyand it was just as expensive as the pledging program.. The entire case against Yingluck and her commerce minister is based on the notion that they 'knew corruption was happening but did nothing to stop it'.. EVERY entitlement program is going to have some 'corruption', this article is proof that the 'corruption' wasn't that bad, just a few forged documents.

the entire smear campaign was just a tool for the establishment to sabotage the democratically elected government, notice how as soon as the military took over the farmers were immediately paid because the 'caretaker' government for 6 months was not allowed to pay them, legal restrictions, Banks refusing to give the govt short term loads, and rich Thai's affiliated with the pdrc threatening to run on any bank that loaned money to the government. If it hadn't been the rice pledging 'scheme' then the establishment would have made something else an 'isssue of corruption' like they could have said that there was cost overruns in infrastructure spending and this was 'corruption'.

How come the redshirts never seem to get the facts straight.

The budget did not include any reservation for the rice scheme, it was said to be a money maker or to be at least break even. So in the budget it did not count. There was a loan but that would be balanced against the value of the rice. Everyone said this cant be done you need to budget. But they did not want that because then they could not spend money on other scams.. eh popular policies.

Had they just budgeted it then nobody would mind because then it was like you said. However this was not done so they could spend more and buy more votes on other popular policies. So you would have been right if a budget for spending was allocated.

Why do you think they did not want the world to show the loss from the program, because that meant they spend too much. They already overspend to the limit any more would go in against the rules.

[Eric Loh]

In reality there was very little 'corruption' in the rice pledging farm subsidy.. the notion that 'it incurred billions in losses' is a joke, it's a subsidy, of course 'it incurs losses'.. but ultimately the entire program was maybe 5% of the national budget-with most of this 'wasted money' going to poor farmers- under the Abhisit regime the rice subsidy was the 'Farmers Insurance' program, and what , an 'insurance' subsidy is going to have 0 graft, not-liklyand it was just as expensive as the pledging program.. The entire case against Yingluck and her commerce minister is based on the notion that they 'knew corruption was happening but did nothing to stop it'.. EVERY entitlement program is going to have some 'corruption', this article is proof that the 'corruption' wasn't that bad, just a few forged documents.

the entire smear campaign was just a tool for the establishment to sabotage the democratically elected government, notice how as soon as the military took over the farmers were immediately paid because the 'caretaker' government for 6 months was not allowed to pay them, legal restrictions, Banks refusing to give the govt short term loads, and rich Thai's affiliated with the pdrc threatening to run on any bank that loaned money to the government. If it hadn't been the rice pledging 'scheme' then the establishment would have made something else an 'isssue of corruption' like they could have said that there was cost overruns in infrastructure spending and this was 'corruption'.

I like you can see how the PDRC and their allies exploited the weaknesses in the rice scheme for political gains. Corruption a Thailand endemic is not exclusive to the rice scheme only and certainly not exclusive to this particular rice scheme. The price guaranteed scheme of Ahbisit government has its fair share of corruption related to manipulation of the moisture content. However if politicians are involved, they must be ferret out and punished. So far investigation only revealed officials and private businesses corruption.

Thailand has been providing subsidies for agri products since we have elected government. Just recently, heavy subsidies we paid to rubber farmers and government bought rubber way above the market price. Sound similar? You expect Suthep to made this an issue or even raise this up? All politics.

You are right, rice subsidies constitute only about 5% of the national budget and not enough to creat a large deficit in debt to GDP ratio. Further the loss is not a zero sum game as the multiplier effects of the payment will generate income and provide a social relief of narrowing income inequality.

[surangw]

"

POPULAR

Not surprising as this investigation is more focusing on the "nuts and bolts" of the scam. The thing is not to prove that they were involved, but more that they were aware of it. "

to be aware is to be involved

[ratcatcher]

In reality there was very little 'corruption' in the rice pledging farm subsidy.. the notion that 'it incurred billions in losses' is a joke, it's a subsidy, of course 'it incurs losses'.. but ultimately the entire program was maybe 5% of the national budget-with most of this 'wasted money' going to poor farmers- under the Abhisit regime the rice subsidy was the 'Farmers Insurance' program, and what , an 'insurance' subsidy is going to have 0 graft, not-liklyand it was just as expensive as the pledging program.. The entire case against Yingluck and her commerce minister is based on the notion that they 'knew corruption was happening but did nothing to stop it'.. EVERY entitlement program is going to have some 'corruption', this article is proof that the 'corruption' wasn't that bad, just a few forged documents.

the entire smear campaign was just a tool for the establishment to sabotage the democratically elected government, notice how as soon as the military took over the farmers were immediately paid because the 'caretaker' government for 6 months was not allowed to pay them, legal restrictions, Banks refusing to give the govt short term loads, and rich Thai's affiliated with the pdrc threatening to run on any bank that loaned money to the government. If it hadn't been the rice pledging 'scheme' then the establishment would have made something else an 'isssue of corruption' like they could have said that there was cost overruns in infrastructure spending and this was 'corruption'.

I like you can see how the PDRC and their allies exploited the weaknesses in the rice scheme for political gains. Corruption a Thailand endemic is not exclusive to the rice scheme only and certainly not exclusive to this particular rice scheme. The price guaranteed scheme of Ahbisit government has its fair share of corruption related to manipulation of the moisture content. However if politicians are involved, they must be ferret out and punished. So far investigation only revealed officials and private businesses corruption.

Thailand has been providing subsidies for agri products since we have elected government. Just recently, heavy subsidies we paid to rubber farmers and government bought rubber way above the market price. Sound similar? You expect Suthep to made this an issue or even raise this up? All politics.

You are right, rice subsidies constitute only about 5% of the national budget and not enough to creat a large deficit in debt to GDP ratio. Further the loss is not a zero sum game as the multiplier effects of the payment will generate income and provide a social relief of narrowing income inequality.

However, regardless of what you two Thaksin supporters say, the fact is the Shinawatras are finished, washed up but wealthy. Exposed and embarrassed but not contrite. In their minds, they did no wrong.

Good riddance to the lot of 'em.

[robblok]

In reality there was very little 'corruption' in the rice pledging farm subsidy.. the notion that 'it incurred billions in losses' is a joke, it's a subsidy, of course 'it incurs losses'.. but ultimately the entire program was maybe 5% of the national budget-with most of this 'wasted money' going to poor farmers- under the Abhisit regime the rice subsidy was the 'Farmers Insurance' program, and what , an 'insurance' subsidy is going to have 0 graft, not-liklyand it was just as expensive as the pledging program.. The entire case against Yingluck and her commerce minister is based on the notion that they 'knew corruption was happening but did nothing to stop it'.. EVERY entitlement program is going to have some 'corruption', this article is proof that the 'corruption' wasn't that bad, just a few forged documents.

the entire smear campaign was just a tool for the establishment to sabotage the democratically elected government, notice how as soon as the military took over the farmers were immediately paid because the 'caretaker' government for 6 months was not allowed to pay them, legal restrictions, Banks refusing to give the govt short term loads, and rich Thai's affiliated with the pdrc threatening to run on any bank that loaned money to the government. If it hadn't been the rice pledging 'scheme' then the establishment would have made something else an 'isssue of corruption' like they could have said that there was cost overruns in infrastructure spending and this was 'corruption'.

I like you can see how the PDRC and their allies exploited the weaknesses in the rice scheme for political gains. Corruption a Thailand endemic is not exclusive to the rice scheme only and certainly not exclusive to this particular rice scheme. The price guaranteed scheme of Ahbisit government has its fair share of corruption related to manipulation of the moisture content. However if politicians are involved, they must be ferret out and punished. So far investigation only revealed officials and private businesses corruption.

Thailand has been providing subsidies for agri products since we have elected government. Just recently, heavy subsidies we paid to rubber farmers and government bought rubber way above the market price. Sound similar? You expect Suthep to made this an issue or even raise this up? All politics.

You are right, rice subsidies constitute only about 5% of the national budget and not enough to creat a large deficit in debt to GDP ratio. Further the loss is not a zero sum game as the multiplier effects of the payment will generate income and provide a social relief of narrowing income inequality.

Fair enough.. however they did not budget money for it.. it was on paper a money maker. They already had the maximum deficit allowable. By putting this for zero they could use more money on other popular policies. This is what is being attacked to put something as 0 loss or a money maker and hiding the losses because they did not want to economize as that would mean less money to steal from.