Australia toughens foreign worker visas, says Australian jobs for Australians

[BEVUP]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

Australia has ratified and signed international conventions for assisting asylum seekers / refugees, if you don't like it vote for the person whose policies would eventually destroy the Australian economy - Pauline Hanson.

 

You do know that approx 27% of the Oz population are foreign born don't you? if you are saying in your opinion only those who hold Australian citizenship are entitled to access to the likes of medical services, other government funded services and so on. the large majority of Australian residents can kiss goodbye to bringing foreign born partners to Australia.

 

You have made a number of  opinionated assertions without facts - not unusual with ideologues from the 'right', so...

 

1) Australians are entitled to relocate offshore and receive Aged Pension, as do many who have retired in Thailand.

2) Those with PR or dual citizenship must meet exactly the same criteria for Age Pension as Australian citizens.

2) If someone is a legal resident of Australia and fulfil relevant criteria they are fully entitled to whatever benefit is provided by government, it is not a requirement to be an Australian citizen, nor should be.

 

25 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

While I do not disagree with your comments, I believe western countries make it far too easy for foreign born people to become entitled to citizen benefits. Thus they set themselves up to paying out huge amounts of welfare to people that only worked a short time before retiring.

Saudi has the best system I know of- they bring in people to do jobs and they can only stay as long as they have a job. Then they go back home.

BTW, I don't know if it is still that way, but back in the 90s when I was thinking about working in Canada, I found that my job would only exist as long as a Canadian did not want to do it, so not just Saudi.

 

I believe the Aussie government is trying to make it harder for Aussies to get the pension overseas, but I could be wrong.

All non citizens should be entitled to the equivalent to thailand 

This is where the Auss gov went wrong putting residence over Citz 

OH i wouldnt be surprised about your last phrase then they would have more to give to the Poms back home or the Residents who dont want to become Citz & then go back home after shafting the Auss Citz out of work with their pension

[Peterw42]

At the end of the day, you either move the factory to the cheap labor, or bring the cheap labor to the factory. Shut down migrant workers and the factory/farm will go offshore to the cheap labor.

Australia is the only 1st world country that does not make white-goods, <deleted>, we dont make washing machines or refrigerators. I would rather see a washing machine factory full of migrant workers and Australians running the factory, IT, Accountants, engineers etc, Than no white-goods industry.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

54 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Turnbull has seen how well the "blame those immigrants" mantra has worked for trump, and is getting on the gravy train. I am thinking a NZ border wall any day soon.

 

I was against immigration for immigration's sake before any politician even started that bandwagon. Import workers while there is a job for them by all means but this "stay 10 years and gain citizenship" malarky is just stupid, IMO.

Saudi has it right.

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

BTW did you know more than 50% of Australians pay no net tax due to family welfare payments and so on.

Perhaps it is time to stop paying people to have children. It's not as though there is a shortage of people on the planet.

IMO, if people can't afford to have children on what they earn, they shouldn't have any. It's not like contraception doesn't exist.

40% of Australians are not of working or tax paying age. 

[thaibeachlovers]

37 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

At the end of the day, you either move the factory to the cheap labor, or bring the cheap labor to the factory. Shut down migrant workers and the factory/farm will go offshore to the cheap labor.

Australia is the only 1st world country that does not make white-goods, <deleted>, we dont make washing machines or refrigerators. I would rather see a washing machine factory full of migrant workers and Australians running the factory, IT, Accountants, engineers etc, Than no white-goods industry.

 

LOL, I'd like to see you move the farm off shore!

 

It's a whole 'nuther subject, but does business exist for the benefit of the citizen, or does the citizen only exist for the benefit of business?

At the moment, as exemplified by move the factory to the cheap labor, or bring the cheap labor to the factory it seems that the citizen is subordinate to business, so the 1% can get rich at the expense of the people. Personally, I'd rather no rich people and a lot of happy people and no unemployment.

 

I would rather see a washing machine factory full of migrant workers and Australians running the factory,

That's how they do it in Saudi. A Saudi sits in the office while a load of poorly paid "guest workers" make him rich. Meanwhile the citizens are unemployed because they want enough money to live in a house and eat, and that would threaten the bosses profit.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

40% of Australians are not of working or tax paying age. 

Which would surely support my contention that there are too many people already.

 

I wonder what they will all do given that automation and AI is going to destroy the need for human workers in the next few years. Already happening. Next is driverless taxis and trucks, but no one is asking what is going to happen to the workers. Can't all work in fast food joints.

[Peterw42]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Which would surely support my contention that there are too many people already.

 

I wonder what they will all do given that automation and AI is going to destroy the need for human workers in the next few years. Already happening. Next is driverless taxis and trucks, but no one is asking what is going to happen to the workers. Can't all work in fast food joints.

Thats why we need companies/enterprise to pay tax, not the unskilled workforce. Australia owns and runs the factories, in Australia and abroad, labor is just a commodity the same as raw materials etc.

What works better, 100 unskilled Australians working in a washing machine factory that cant compete with a Chinese washing machine factory OR 20 Skilled Australians running a factory using labor from wherever its cheap and being competitive with the Chinese factory? So competitive that we can open 4 more profitable factories and employ the other 80 people.

457 visa's are not about taking jobs from Australians, its about maybe the survival of Australian manufacturing/farming being able to compete in a world economy. Otherwise we are left with digging up resources and selling them.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Thats why we need companies/enterprise to pay tax, not the unskilled workforce. Australia owns and runs the factories, in Australia and abroad, labor is just a commodity the same as raw materials etc.

What works better, 100 unskilled Australians working in a washing machine factory that cant compete with a Chinese washing machine factory OR 20 Skilled Australians running a factory using labor from wherever its cheap and being competitive with the Chinese factory? So competitive that we can open 4 more profitable factories and employ the other 80 people.

457 visa's are not about taking jobs from Australians, its about maybe the survival of Australian manufacturing/farming being able to compete in a world economy. Otherwise we are left with digging up resources and selling them.

 

 

You obviously missed my bit about AI and automation. Within a few years, there won't be any workers of any type in factories making whiteware, unless the government bans robots, which is unlikely.

I don't understand your logic anyway- if a factory is in Australia surely it would be selling to the Australian market. If all the factory workers are low paid imported labour units, who is going to be buying the end product? Can't see them exporting as China does that already. Even a relatively large market like Australia doesn't need that many washing machines, so eventually, without paid Australian labour, the market will be saturated. Perhaps they will try the Bill Gates policy of simply not maintaining the products in the hope people will have to keep buying new ones.

 

BTW, digging up resources and selling them works with a population level of 20 years ago, but with millions of extra unemployable mouths to feed it doesn't work very well at all, especially if all the little princesses and princes think a "media studies" degree is the way to riches. If I had a child, they'd be learning a trade like plumbing or electrical. It'll be a while till they make a robot that can do those jobs.

Edited April 20, 2017 by thaibeachlovers

[steven100]

It's all about costs.   Hiring staff using 457 visas saves the company money and that's the bottom line.

Abolishing the 457 visa will simply force more Australian companies to outsource their services off-shore like in the Phillipines or India.

 

Manufacturing in Australia cannot compete with it's Chinese counterpart or Indian product or Taiwanese product.  A washing machine costs approx $240 to build in a factory in Australia, that same washing machine cost 40% less to build in China.

 

Labour costs in Australia are too high ,  however living expenses are also too high so it's a no win situation .....

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, steven100 said:

It's all about costs.   Hiring staff using 457 visas saves the company money and that's the bottom line.

Abolishing the 457 visa will simply force more Australian companies to outsource their services off-shore like in the Phillipines or India.

 

Manufacturing in Australia cannot compete with it's Chinese counterpart or Indian product or Taiwanese product.  A washing machine costs approx $240 to build in a factory in Australia, that same washing machine cost 40% less to build in China.

 

Labour costs in Australia are too high ,  however living expenses are also too high so it's a no win situation .....

I don't get your position. 

Are you saying make loads of Australians unemployed so rich people can buy cheaper washing machines?

If it means introducing tariffs to make Australian goods competitive, so be it. Sounds good to me. Then, if the Australian product is inferior to the overseas made one, they can buy the overseas one instead at the same price, so the Australian manufacturers would have to make better ones. Level playing field and all that.

Why should companies that exploit workers overseas be able to undercut companies that don't? That's immoral.

[steven100]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't get your position. 

Are you saying make loads of Australians unemployed so rich people can buy cheaper washing machines?

If it means introducing tariffs to make Australian goods competitive, so be it. Sounds good to me. Then, if the Australian product is inferior to the overseas made one, they can buy the overseas one instead at the same price, so the Australian manufacturers would have to make better ones. Level playing field and all that.

Why should companies that exploit workers overseas be able to undercut companies that don't? That's immoral.

I wasn't commenting on what is needed to level up the playing field ( raise import tariffs ). Simply saying that Australia cannot compete with Asian economies ( labour hire )

so that is why companies in Australia were hiring workers on 457 visas, as it saved them money.

There is no easy fix to this problem, it's been happening in the US for the past 30 years but now is becoming more prevelant with Trump in power.

Australia is looking to also increase the tax rate for companies that hire 457 visa staff hoping it will reduce the numbers and make more Aussie jobs available ....  but this is only talk at this stage.

[mfd101]

All this is about globalization and the reunification of the human species: If you want peace and prosperity for all human beings, then you have to accept that people in poor countries have the right to sell their products on the world markets and that means that the products made by people in rich countries, to the extent they are the same product, are not competitive. Raising tariffs doesn't make the rich country's products competitive: it simply makes them more expensive for all consumers in their own country.

 

Meanwhile, who cares about the poor people of the world struggling to sell their products in fair & open competition? (the only way out of their poverty!) Oh no, lets raise tariffs & then we'll give the poor people aid funds to help them out of their poverty! What kind of sense does that make?

 

There is no easy solution to all of this. The theory is that the rich countries should move their production of goods & services upmarket to areas where the poor countries can't compete. But that's the kind of ratrace that Oz is not too good at ... though, of course, 'services' (education, health & finance) now make up easily the largest part of the Oz economy (as they do in UK & US).

[thaibeachlovers]

12 minutes ago, steven100 said:

I wasn't commenting on what is needed to level up the playing field ( raise import tariffs ). Simply saying that Australia cannot compete with Asian economies ( labour hire )

so that is why companies in Australia were hiring workers on 457 visas, as it saved them money.

There is no easy fix to this problem, it's been happening in the US for the past 30 years but now is becoming more prevelant with Trump in power.

Australia is looking to also increase the tax rate for companies that hire 457 visa staff hoping it will reduce the numbers and make more Aussie jobs available ....  but this is only talk at this stage.

I'm still puzzled. Tariffs would enable Australian companies to compete with cheaper labour countries. Simple enough, but do the politicians have the guts to go against globalisation and greedy businessmen?

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, mfd101 said:

All this is about globalization and the reunification of the human species: If you want peace and prosperity for all human beings, then you have to accept that people in poor countries have the right to sell their products on the world markets and that means that the products made by people in rich countries, to the extent they are the same product, are not competitive. Raising tariffs doesn't make the rich country's products competitive: it simply makes them more expensive for all consumers in their own country.

 

Meanwhile, who cares about the poor people of the world struggling to sell their products in fair & open competition? (the only way out of their poverty!) Oh no, lets raise tariffs & then we'll give the poor people aid funds to help them out of their poverty! What kind of sense does that make?

 

There is no easy solution to all of this. The theory is that the rich countries should move their production of goods & services upmarket to areas where the poor countries can't compete. But that's the kind of ratrace that Oz is not too good at ... though, of course, 'services' (education, health & finance) now make up easily the largest part of the Oz economy (as they do in UK & US).

All very well if we all want to sit around the campfire and sing Kumbaya. Unfortunately in the real world it is the responsibility of politicians to look after the people that pay their wages, not businesses and workers in other countries. If that means tariffs then so be it.

 

[mfd101]

Beggar thy neighbour and bugger the consequences!

 

The one thing noone can do, short of nuclear war, is stop globalization - which is the product of demography and technology, things that noone has control over. [Oh yes we can! Forward to the 1960s! Yippee!]

[simple1]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

BTW did you know more than 50% of Australians pay no net tax due to family welfare payments and so on.

Perhaps it is time to stop paying people to have children. It's not as though there is a shortage of people on the planet.

IMO, if people can't afford to have children on what they earn, they shouldn't have any. It's not like contraception doesn't exist.

Government tax incentives for having children were put in place to encourage a greater birth rate as the then birth rate could not support revenue growth to support the aged, government spend needs and so on. Birth rates are still low and one of the reasons Oz government facilitates immigration intake at approx 200k people per year. Whereas you have the likes of Pauline Hanson who have a zero net immigration policy which would likely lead to the eventual collapse of the Australian economy.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Beggar thy neighbour and bugger the consequences!

 

The one thing noone can do, short of nuclear war, is stop globalization - which is the product of demography and technology, things that noone has control over. [Oh yes we can! Forward to the 1960s! Yippee!]

I liked the 60s/ 70s. No unemployment to speak of, everyone could afford a house if they worked hard and state houses were available for those that couldn't. Sod all pollution and the skiing was better. Public health actually meant that too. Cars were real unlike the crappy lookalike consumer junk we get shafted with now,

Globalisation hadn't been heard of except in scifi, and the music was sooooooo much better than the garbage they put out now.

I could go on, but what would be the point.

[simple1]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm still puzzled. Tariffs would enable Australian companies to compete with cheaper labour countries. Simple enough, but do the politicians have the guts to go against globalisation and greedy businessmen?

Imposing additional tariffs on imports in contradiction to existing free trade agreements /  WTO policy would create trade war which would be to the detriment of the Australian economy, increased unemployment, reduced overseas investment etc etc

[thaibeachlovers]

6 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Government tax incentives for having children were put in place to encourage a greater birth rate as the then birth rate could not support revenue growth to support the aged, government spend needs and so on. Birth rates are still low and one of the reasons Oz government facilitates immigration intake at approx 200k people per year. Whereas you have the likes of Pauline Hanson who have a zero net immigration policy which would likely lead to the eventual collapse of the Australian economy.

I agree with what you say,  but what everyone is missing is that factories and work in most manual occupations is going to vanish and it's not going to be too far away before it happens.

EVERYTHING is going to change, and society better get prepared, or chaos will occur, as the rich get everything and the once workers get the shaft.

It doesn't matter how many people are in the country if they can't get jobs because robots are doing it all. Where will the tax to support the elderly come from then? No one knows because no one is talking about it.

I have no clue what to do about it- I doubt the government will ban AI and robotics like in the "Dune" scenario. 

However, if it means I get a DDG android to look after me in my old age I won't be complaining. 

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Imposing additional tariffs on imports in contradiction to existing free trade agreements /  WTO policy would create trade war which would be to the detriment of the Australian economy, increased unemployment, reduced overseas investment etc etc

Looks simple to me. Keep the staus quo with high unemployment and loads of immigrants, with all the downside of that, or try something different.

So far globalisation hasn't worked for anyone except the 1%. Never had families sleeping in cars in my country before globalisation.

[mfd101]

18 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I liked the 60s/ 70s. No unemployment to speak of, everyone could afford a house if they worked hard and state houses were available for those that couldn't. Sod all pollution and the skiing was better. Public health actually meant that too. Cars were real unlike the crappy lookalike consumer junk we get shafted with now,

Globalisation hadn't been heard of except in scifi, and the music was sooooooo much better than the garbage they put out now.

I could go on, but what would be the point.

Yeah, and the 1965 Holden was SO much better than a 2017 Mazda!

 

And no computers for us to exchange views on (come to think of it, not a bad idea!)

[GreasyFingers]

4 hours ago, mfd101 said:

And no computers for us to exchange views on (come to think of it, not a bad idea!)

We did that at the local pub or club so there was no where to hide if you were wrong/stupid.

[GreasyFingers]

4 hours ago, mfd101 said:

Yeah, and the 1965 Holden was SO much better than a 2017 Mazda!

The 65 holden was a step down from the 1964 EH.

[mrwebb8825]

On 4/18/2017 at 0:27 PM, webfact said:

The new visa will be limited to a two-year period and a second four-year visa will require a higher standard of English language.

Maybe they should share this with President Trump. But, no, can't happen as the states are held to a different measuring stick then the rest of the freaking world. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by mrwebb8825

[ilostmypassword]

9 minutes ago, mrwebb8825 said:

Maybe they should share this with President Trump. But, no, can't happen as the states are held to a different measuring stick then the rest of the freaking world. 

Given that Trump makes considerable use of something quite similar - the H2B visa - somehow I think he would take kindly to that.

[USPatriot]

On 4/17/2017 at 10:32 PM, Laughing Gravy said:

Well done Australia . Lets hope one day the UK will follow and do the same.

So trump  does the same thing and all the comments on trump.  Just people being hypocritical

[simple1]

6 hours ago, USPatriot said:

So trump  does the same thing and all the comments on trump.  Just people being hypocritical

What exactly has Trump achieved with foreigner work visas other than ordering a review?

[starky]

On 19/04/2017 at 5:09 AM, Stargrazer9889 said:

The  immigration of Australia, Canada and USA should be that peope who want tro immigrate should know the language at least basically before being let into the country. Now Canada has immigrants, and especially refugees that have to be taught the  language, which takes 3 to 5  years to learn the  basics  and it all costs money for this to happen. Good on Australia to change their immigration policy.

Geezer

Yeah maybe Thailand should consider that too. Great idea? Or are we only talking about the colonies?

[starky]

19 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Turnbull has seen how well the "blame those immigrants" mantra has worked for trump, and is getting on the gravy train. I am thinking a NZ border wall any day soon.

 

Well if you really wanted to free up some jobs forget the 457's just send all the Kiwis back..