UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The UK has not chosen to be out of the single market, TM has proposed a half in half out scenario and not surprisingly rejected by the EU. It has been hinted she could concede on the free movement issue which would be out in name only.

 

We are still waiting to see what the JRM proposal will look like.

According to Mays last speech we have opted out of the single market.

 

"We are leaving the single market. Life is going to be different. In certain ways, our access to each other’s markets will be less than it is now. How could the EU’s structure of rights and obligations be sustained, if the UK – or any country – were allowed to enjoy all the benefits without all of the obligations?”

But she suggested the EU had pushed too hard, adding: “So we need to strike a new balance. But we will not accept the rights of Canada and the obligations of Norway.”

 

://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/02/theresa-may-says-brexit-will-reduce-uk-access-to-single-market

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by vogie

[aright]

17 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

There is a reason why the Irish border is the big stumbling block in the negotiations. It is because there is no easy solution (except indeed remaining in the EU).

And if Brexit takes place there is an absolute necessity to have a solution. The border needs to be checked on both sides, both for goods and people passing it. No way around it, and I haven't mentioned the consequences yet for the Good Friday Agreement.

Goodwill alone doesn't solve this conundrum and I do not see any solution in-between a hard border and no border at all, certainly not one based on non-existing technology.

So what's it to be then; we stay in the EU, accept there is no solution or do you have a new complex solution which serves all parties concerned? 

[whatsupdoc]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

So what's it to be then; we stay in the EU, accept there is no solution or do you have a new complex solution which serves all parties concerned? 

Try reading the rest of my comment as well. It might give you the answer.

[sandyf]

18 minutes ago, vogie said:

According to Mays last speech we have opted out of the single market.

 

I said half out but if you think that this means out, feel free.

 

The UK will "maintain a common rulebook for all goods" with the EU, including agricultural products, after Brexit.

A treaty will be signed committing the UK to "continued harmonisation" with EU rules - avoiding friction at the UK-EU border, including Northern Ireland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44749993

[aright]

2 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Try reading the rest of my comment as well. It might give you the answer.

I didn't mention it because checking goods and people on either side sounds like you are an advocate for a wall which is what the EU and RI don't want...you have already said the technology doesn't exist to handle it digitally although its the way we handle goods from non EU countries and all people through our ports of entry. Is a wall and rejection of what the participants want your proposed solution? Are you seriously suggesting a wall; if not what?

[nong38]

6 hours ago, Stupooey said:

Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned the Irish Referendum of 2008 on the Lisbon Treaty. The article quoted, taken in isolation and out of context, did indeed paint the EU in the manner you describe. The reality, though, is very different and despite it being a unique situation, it does have certain corollaries with the present position to make it relevant to the argument.

 

At the time 26 of the 27 EU countries (Croatia had not yet joined) had ratified the Treaty. The Irish Constitution required a referendum on the subject, so this was held, and by a margin of 54% to 46% they voted to reject the Treaty. Owing to the relatively small population and low turnout, this equated to the votes of about 50,000 Irish overturning the wish of 300 million odd people.

 

Not unreasonably, the EU felt they needed to address this situation, so started by commissioning a poll to discover why people had voted against ratification. The result showed that the most common reason given, by just over 20% of 'No' voters was that they didn't understand the Treaty (and before anyone queries the validity of the poll because of who commissioned it, another such survey in The Irish Times produced a similar result, with an even higher percentage). Efforts were then made to educate people and remove some of the more fanciful misunderstandings (such as that the Treaty meant compulsory conscription to a European Army, or that it would force Ireland to change its abortion law).

 

The following year another referendum was held, against the wishes of many who felt the original result should stand, and this time the voting was 67% to 33% in favour of the Treaty, a swing of just over 20% to the 'Yes' side, which would suggest that those who had not understood it now did, and were in favour of it. As a result, the Treaty of Lisbon was finally effected on 1st December 2009.

 

This episode tends to support my earlier assertion that a referendum which produces a relatively slender majority for one side or the other simply creates more problems than it solves. A vote to effectively unravel 40 years of progress and start again from scratch needs the support of a solid majority (at the very least 60:40 in my opinion) to prevent the kind of situation we are seeing today.

 

 

On a popular vote, all individual votes toted up, it might be considered a close run thing. In UK elections not much notice is taken about the popular vote as it its seats one in parliamentary elections that count n deciding the winner. Voting took place in 382 constituencies and the result here shows a very different picture with the leave winning by 263 to 119! 

[citybiker]

The UK has not chosen to be out of the single market, TM has proposed a half in half out scenario and not surprisingly rejected by the EU. It has been hinted she could concede on the free movement issue which would be out in name only.
 
We are still waiting to see what the JRM proposal will look like.

HMG & PMTM made it emphatically clear the the UK will leave the customs union & single market, there's plenty of media statements and interviews which support this.

As for JRM proposal, I strongly suspect the remainers don't wish to be operating any dangerous machinery the day its released.

Sent from my SM-T555 using Tapatalk

[dunroaming]

49 pages and counting!  Question today is... In March next year we will have a conclusion, what on earth are the honourable TV members going to bicker about then?  Will we continue and try to pick holes in the agreed deal (or no deal).  If so this could go on for years and years and probably only come to an end when all of us have popped our clogs!

[aright]

23 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

49 pages and counting!  Question today is... In March next year we will have a conclusion, what on earth are the honourable TV members going to bicker about then?  Will we continue and try to pick holes in the agreed deal (or no deal).  If so this could go on for years and years and probably only come to an end when all of us have popped our clogs!

How about   "How long can the EU survive?"  Same shoes, different colour. 

[whatsupdoc]

1 hour ago, aright said:

I didn't mention it because checking goods and people on either side sounds like you are an advocate for a wall which is what the EU and RI don't want...you have already said the technology doesn't exist to handle it digitally although its the way we handle goods from non EU countries and all people through our ports of entry. Is a wall and rejection of what the participants want your proposed solution? Are you seriously suggesting a wall; if not what?

Obviously that is the big question. I understand there are a lot of border crossings between NI and RoI. Building border posts everywhere will not be easy. I have never been in that area so I can't tell.

But doing nothing is definitely not an option.

 

As far as I am concerned, reunification would be the best. Having a border in the Irish Sea (and keeping NI in the single market) would also be a solution. But clearly these solutions are not easily realized either.

[david555]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/17/brexit-legal-challenge-government-two-weeks-respond

Government given two weeks to respond to Brexit legal challenge

Group representing Britons living in EU countries argues referendum was not fair vote

Government lawyers have been given a two-week deadline to respond to the latest legal challenge over the legitimacy of the Brexit vote.

A judicial review has been launched by the UK in EU Challenge group, which represents Britons living in France, Italy and Spain.

It argues that the Electoral Commission’s findings on BeLeave and Vote Leave, which resulted in two officials being reported to the police and fines being imposed, mean the 2016 EU referendum was not a lawful, fair or free vote.

On Thursday, Mr Justice Warby issued a high court order requiring those representing Theresa May and the commission to submit a summary of their legal defence by 4pm on 31 August.

[Stupooey]

1 hour ago, nong38 said:

On a popular vote, all individual votes toted up, it might be considered a close run thing. In UK elections not much notice is taken about the popular vote as it its seats one in parliamentary elections that count n deciding the winner. Voting took place in 382 constituencies and the result here shows a very different picture with the leave winning by 263 to 119! 

So why not let the MPs, who were elected to represent these constituencies you care so dearly about, make the decision, seeing that you place so little faith in the popular vote.

[Orac]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/17/brexit-legal-challenge-government-two-weeks-respond
Government given two weeks to respond to Brexit legal challenge
Group representing Britons living in EU countries argues referendum was not fair vote
Government lawyers have been given a two-week deadline to respond to the latest legal challenge over the legitimacy of the Brexit vote.
A judicial review has been launched by the UK in EU Challenge group, which represents Britons living in France, Italy and Spain.
It argues that the Electoral Commission’s findings on BeLeave and Vote Leave, which resulted in two officials being reported to the police and fines being imposed, mean the 2016 EU referendum was not a lawful, fair or free vote.
On Thursday, Mr Justice Warby issued a high court order requiring those representing Theresa May and the commission to submit a summary of their legal defence by 4pm on 31 August.

Can’t see this having any legs to be honest.

From a legal standpoint the referendum was advisory - the actual trigger point for us leaving was parliaments vote to enact Art 50 so, in effect, the referendum result could be classed as bad advice but the responsibility still lies with parliament to make any legal change to the current situation.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nong38]

37 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

So why not let the MPs, who were elected to represent these constituencies you care so dearly about, make the decision, seeing that you place so little faith in the popular vote.

It was a popular vote in EU constituencies where no member was standing, the vote was not for a candidate it was for leave or remain, 263 constituencies voted to leave, 119 voted to stay.

[Stupooey]

An interesting article by Gwynne Dyer, a journalist I much admire, which was printed in today's B*ngk*k P*st (not sure if you're allowed to mention it in a Nation-sponsored forum!):

 

https://lfpress.com/columnists/opinion/dyer-stubbornness-twitter-may-doom-labour-leader

 

It would be the ultimate irony if the Daily Mail, whose shameful reporting did much to influence the referendum vote, turned out to be the catalyst for the failure of Brexit.

 

 

[Stupooey]

14 minutes ago, nong38 said:

It was a popular vote in EU constituencies where no member was standing, the vote was not for a candidate it was for leave or remain, 263 constituencies voted to leave, 119 voted to stay.

Very confused as what you are referring to here - there are 632 UK Parliamentary constituencies and 11 European Parliamentary constituencies, so I'm not sure where your figure of 382 comes from. Does it matter anyway - the referendum was not carried out on a constituency basis, and any attempt to allocate votes is at best an estimate?

[BwindiBoy]

9 hours ago, david555 said:

But it was the U.K. choice …. so solve it ...we did not started it 

So if you're a battered housewife and finally decide enough is enough, as your health is starting to suffer, and you decide you want a divorce, you have to come up with all the solutions regarding the split of assets and visitation rights?!

[Stupooey]

8 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

So if you're a battered housewife and finally decide enough is enough, as your health is starting to suffer, and you decide you want a divorce, you have to come up with all the solutions regarding the split of assets and visitation rights?!

Comparing the UK's relationship with Europe to a battered housewife is, quite frankly, an insult to those who have suffered domestic abuse

[bristolboy]

10 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

So if you're a battered housewife and finally decide enough is enough, as your health is starting to suffer, and you decide you want a divorce, you have to come up with all the solutions regarding the split of assets and visitation rights?!

The self-pity analysis.

[3 minus 2]

17 hours ago, aright said:

As you say as a result of loosing the vote Remainers have become obsessed with a rerun which leads to a lack of balance in there analysis. What Remainers feel we are moving toward remains to be seen, what we are leaving is far more evident. 

what we are moving towards is economic disaster,  what are leaving is economic stability

make sense of that if you can.  

[Jip99]

4 minutes ago, 3 minus 2 said:

what we are moving towards is economic disaster,  what are leaving is economic stability

make sense of that if you can.  

 

 

You are ALL ‘economics’........ don’t you think the issues are deeper than that ?

 

Votes were not cast just on economics......yours might have been, did you vote?’

[aright]

53 minutes ago, 3 minus 2 said:

what we are moving towards is economic disaster,  what are leaving is economic stability

make sense of that if you can.  

Economic stability? Only in Germany ! Check the unemployment figures in  the EU 

 

One of the world’s most significant financial and development institutions has issued a highly critical report on the economic structure of the EU warning that it is leaving the bloc’s poorer states and regions behind and creating “growing divides” between members as a result.

Economic inequality has been “mounting in many parts of the EU since 1990”, the report warned. Low-income Europeans were left behind by the labour market, and this was driving up household income inequality.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/03/07/world-bank-blasts-eus-deepening-economic-divides-urging-bloc/

[david555]

1 hour ago, BwindiBoy said:

So if you're a battered housewife and finally decide enough is enough, as your health is starting to suffer, and you decide you want a divorce, you have to come up with all the solutions regarding the split of assets and visitation rights?!

ridiculous comparing , just like a cry baby who does not get the toy he like to have , you brexiteers have a hard skull seems to accept the leaving facts afterwards ,your way is not going to be as you like it ….you are free to do on yourself all you like , just only big 8 month's dont worry time go quick ...patience a little bit

Edited August 17, 2018 by david555

[BwindiBoy]

48 minutes ago, david555 said:

ridiculous comparing , just like a cry baby who does not get the toy he like to have , you brexiteers have a hard skull seems to accept the leaving facts afterwards ,your way is not going to be as you like it ….you are free to do on yourself all you like , just only big 8 month's dont worry time go quick ...patience a little bit

Your original post was way more ridiculous. And how you deluded pro- E.U. / ReReReReMoaners can call Brexit supporters cry babies is Trump-like hypocrisy.

[aright]

48 minutes ago, david555 said:

ridiculous comparing , just like a cry baby who does not get the toy he like to have , you brexiteers have a hard skull seems to accept the leaving facts afterwards ,your way is not going to be as you like it ….you are free to do on yourself all you like , just only big 8 month's dnt worry time go quick ...patience a little bit

Sounds like a reasonable analogy to me.  The only cry baby on this post is you. Whenever you disagree with anyone you don't address the issue or what they said  you just say ridiculous or similar and act like a big girls blouse. 

[tomacht8]

2 hours ago, BwindiBoy said:

So if you're a battered housewife and finally decide enough is enough, as your health is starting to suffer, and you decide you want a divorce, you have to come up with all the solutions regarding the split of assets and visitation rights?!

If you would take the trouble and read the enclosed text by Rogers, you could once again bring in your analogues with the failed marriage. Believe me that the scope of global trade, EU, WTO, multilateral and bilateral agreements are much larger than a contract of marriage.

https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/blog-sir-ivan-rogers-speech-text-in-full/

[vogie]

56 minutes ago, david555 said:

ridiculous comparing , just like a cry baby who does not get the toy he like to have , you brexiteers have a hard skull seems to accept the leaving facts afterwards ,your way is not going to be as you like it ….you are free to do on yourself all you like , just only big 8 month's dont worry time go quick ...patience a little bit

Oh David, you were wishing us all the best earlier on, why have you gone back to your old disparagement ways. Calling us "hard skull" doesn't become you, nor do we deserve it. If I didn't know you better I would think it was a case of sour grapes. I was going to show you my new blue passport, but you have lost that oportunity now, be nice to people.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

But the immigrants are a French (and EU) problem to deal with. To the UK they are illegal immigrants as indeed they are to France but the French have no idea what to do with them.

Aren't most of the immigrants coming to UK from the old UK colonies? I understood that UK has given the permission for people of old colonies to live in UK.

[BwindiBoy]

8 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

If you would take the trouble and read the enclosed text by Rogers, you could once again bring in your analogues with the failed marriage. Believe me that the scope of global trade, EU, WTO, multilateral and bilateral agreements are much larger than a contract of marriage.

https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/blog-sir-ivan-rogers-speech-text-in-full/

Jesus! What is it with people continuously trying to ram this one man's personal opinion down everyone's throat? It's been posted numerous times previously. Is this Rogers fella the new messiah or something?

 

Re the marriage analogy, it had context against the post I was responding to - your post takes it out of context.

[tomacht8]

Just now, BwindiBoy said:

Jesus! What is it with people continuously trying to ram this one man's personal opinion down everyone's throat? It's been posted numerous times previously. Is this Rogers fella the new messiah or something?

 

Re the marriage analogy, it had context against the post I was responding to - your post takes it out of context.

Sorry that was not my Intention.
You read the Rogers Text fully?