Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[marko kok prong]

Problem is every immigration office seems to have a different set of rules,practices,until this is standardised i can see problems for many in the future,for instance last year at last we had an immigration office in our province,previously we had to travel to Phitsanoluk my first visit was a totally different experience than my visit's to the other office,they wanted not only the  bank letter,copy of updated passbook but atm slip from that day,also bank letter had to be that day,this year i had to use a new passport i had to provide copies of every page even unused one,s and the same for the new passport,my photo was carefully measured,why do they need all this paper because they enter it all on the computer anyway,then there's people who constantly jump in despite having a number system that seems meaningless,now with big joke in charge i fear it's only going to get worse,what next a medical check,hair length,shoe size,togder size both flaccid and erect[well that would be okay if they had a booth with an attractive young lady to measure the latter state,maybe a small tip to get a happy ending, oh no i forgot no tips]  ye Gods,look at Big joke this week 'i am coming to get you foreigners' no mention on the sign of good guys in bad guys out it seems now we are all bad guys unless we can prove otherwise,in triplicate.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, zydeco said:

  Some people here have even said they are going in with ATM receipts.  This will be a nightmare.  Thai Immigration will not stand for it.

 

Just as a hypothetical example re withdrawing from Thai ATMs and ATM receipts using a home country card.

 

In the U.S, a lot of bank cards have a daily withdrawal limit of $500 or less. But let's go with $500.

 

To get 65,000 baht from Thai ATMs per month for purposes of satisfying Immigration (which we really don't know would satisfy them anyway), such a person would have to do 4 or 5 $500 ATM pulls per month, depending on the exchange rate, and of course pay the current 220b Thai ATM withdrawal fee on foreign cards every time.

 

Then, multiply that times 12 months per year, and you'd end up with a pile of 48-60 ATM receipts each year when going to Immigration, which as well all know, tend to fade over time. I can really see the front line Immigration officers sitting there and thumbing thru a pile of 50-60 ATM receipts just to satisfy one person's financial requirement.

 

Of course, presumably, it would be a whole lot easier to just print out 12 months of monthly bank statements for that home country account that would show all those Thai bank ATM withdrawals, although all those debit listings on the home country statement would be in the person's home country currency, not in Thai baht, which wouldn't really help Immigration at all.  At least, the ATM receipts would be printing out showing Thai baht amounts.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, bikerbri said:

That’s not what the British Embassy said. What we need is clarification from the Thai immigration.

The British Embassy (in the interview) also say that immigration "currently" accepts bank statements for income proof, they don't, so you can take any other BE statements as rubbish.

[bikerbri]

11 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I am glad your bank allows direct deposits to  Thailand. My  pension providers and there are 4 of them do NOT do foreign  direct deposits  My point being there are many ways to prove income- and the Police Order indicates  using the income method does not need be sent to a Thai bank. You only need to be able to access it and prove the source amount That's what a debit card is for if you want to pay the fees.

 

The BE Embassy can do what they want but their lack of understand of the Thai Imm system and their inability to communicate effectively with the Thai authorities is what has led to this uproar. 

The DWP have an international department for the transfer of pension income. I deposit my State pension into my U.K. bank account and they in turn transfer the funds to mt Thai Bank. Most international banks will transfer funds internationall for a small charge.

[marko kok prong]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Just as a hypothetical example re withdrawing from Thai ATMs and ATM receipts using a home country card.

 

In the U.S, a lot of bank cards have a daily withdrawal limit of $500 or less. But let's go with $500.

 

To get 65,000 baht from Thai ATMs per month for purposes of satisfying Immigration (which we really don't know would satisfy them anyway), such a person would have to do 4 or 5 ATM pulls per month, depending on the exchange rate, and of course pay the currently 220b Thai ATM fee on foreign cards every time.

 

Then, multiply that times 12 months per year, and you'd end up with a pile of 48-60 ATM receipts each year when going to Immigration, which as well all know, tend to fade over time. I can really see the front line Immigration officers sitting there and thumbing thru a pile of 50-60 ATM receipts just to satisfy one person's financial requirement.

 

Of course, presumably, it would be a whole lot easier to just print out 12 months of monthly bank statements for that home country account that would show all those Thai bank ATM withdrawals, although all those debit listings on the home country statement would be in the person's home country currency, which wouldn't really help Immigration at all.  At least, the ATM receipts would be printing out showing Thai baht amounts.

 

 

No you really need to have a Thai bank account,i have 2 accounts with Krung Thai one with Kasikorn as well as a joint account with them with me and my wife,lets just hope the banks don't change doing the letters can see that though. Never had a problem opening these accounts Krung Thai even gave me a credit card!

[55Jay]

14 minutes ago, meechai said:

It was 100% a loophole...You know it...I know it & Now Thai IMM knows it

 

If you cant show  in Thailand accessible 800K as a single retired expat...They know you cant show it in an emergency

Thailand stuck on the hook for too many in the past now they  are awake

 

This loophole was like saying...Oh I have lots of money...Just not on me 555

 

Yeah took awhile but jig is up

The jig is up, but only for the Brits. 

 

Ironically, their process is typically held up here as the more "honest" one among them.  Odd they should be the (only) ones to give up so easily.  Worse yet, they sat on the secret for months, then tossed their Nationals under the bus in such a cavalier way, with 2 months to spare.  That ain't cricket.  ????

Edited October 13, 2018 by 55Jay

[Joe Mcseismic]

The crazy fact is, is that Thai Immigration insist on a letter from embassy's of all nationalities that doesn't prove a thing.

[mfd101]

One further interesting thing the vice-consul gave away in the first 9 minutes of tedium was that, following a visit from Head Office inspectors or auditors (I'v forgotten her exact words) last year or earlier this year, the BE was to stop doing anything by way of service to customers that those customers could get elsewhere.

 

So there's the start of the problem, followed up with mistranslations/misunderstandings with the Thais who say they want 'proof' or 'verification' of income, when in fact - as with just about every other nationality - what they ACTUALLY WANT is what lawyers call a 'letter of comfort' (to remove all responsibility from the poor Immigration officials), and for this a statdec/affirmation/affidavit WITNESSED by embassies is just fine.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

The requirement is for people to have a pension income of 65,000 a month or have a lump sum available of 800,000.  If you have income of 65,000 a month and your expenditures are only 30,000 a month... then in a few years - you would have enough in the bank to go the lump sum approach and not worry about showing monthly income.  The purpose would be served either way.  If you only have 30,000 in income a month and somehow have been pretending it is more - you just were not properly meeting requirements in the first place (you as in general terms not individual terms).

 

You seem to be missing the notion that, aside from Immigration's rules, not everyone here NEEDS to be spending 65,000 per month to support themselves or their family. And, there NEVER has been any requirement that that amount of money either had to be spent or even brought into Thailand -- just has to have been received by the applicant as income OUTSIDE of Thailand.

 

And, given that Immigration's actual rules don't require either the importing of that sum into Thailand or the spending of that sum in Thailand, a lot of people have very valid reasons for NOT wanting to bring excess funds into Thailand or deposit those into Thai banks, including but not limited to, getting better return on their funds elsewhere and having more secure and more consumer friendly banking elsewhere than here.

 

A person can perfectly well be earning well in excess of the 65,000 per month, be fully complying with Immigration's monthly income requirement, and have no reason at all to bring those funds into Thailand or spend all of them here. You're trying to create and support a new system of rules that go beyond the actual rules Immigration has in place right now.

 

 

[futsukayoi]

3 hours ago, Exploring Thailand said:

Agreed.  This is from the BKK website.

 

 

This is a form given to me by an Immigration Officer in the BKK Immigration office.

 

 

As the form says you can provide 5 or 6 or 7. So the letter was only required if you don't have proof of transfers in or 800,000 in the bank.  In Samui if you provide a bank statement no letter is required.  The letters from the embassy have never verified you have the required income they only confirm that you swore to the embassy that you did.  Obviously the Thais suspect that some of those sworn statements may not be true and the embassy has no way of checking if they are being lied to.

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, meechai said:

No you are wrong/lacking comprehension of what I wrote...NOT FULL INCOME

 

But at least the minimum REQUIRED  400/800K THB

 

Just hang on

No point getting excited...but have your required money ready as it is coming...100%

Hey if you have it no problem correct?

 

For now you can even send it elsewhere after the seasoned months...For Now

Seasoning is for bank account method.

The Brits are pushing a "solution" of required monthly imports for income methods.

That is entirely new and for many that do have the income, potentially very onerous.

If you have a pension payed into an account abroad and you can prove the pension (as you can NOW, the status quo) why force people into required monthly imports?

 

[marko kok prong]

3 minutes ago, meechai said:

No you are wrong/lacking comprehension of what I wrote...NOT FULL INCOME

 

But at least the minimum REQUIRED  400/800K THB

 

Just hang on

No point getting excited...but have your required money ready as it is coming...100%

Hey if you have it no problem correct?

 

For now you can even send it elsewhere after the seasoned months...For Now

No,now they [as i said varies from office to office],want to see money in and out of account not just sit there,as this was a scam some used borrowing money leaving it in bank for 3 months,then after visa granted repaying it,why i always use my savings account ,not deposit account,it has a sizeable sum,but was rejected,as there had been no movement,where as my savings account was fine as it showed movement.

[Kadilo]

30 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

You'd think the person doing the interview would have known that as well and brought the matter up.

 

Would have and should have.

He now owes it to everyone to follow up that interview with the BE with another with all the questions being posed in this thread so there is total clarity. If poss get Thai immigration present too so she can’t mislead. 

 

Something TV can organise? 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

59 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

My experience 3 days ago at Kap Choeng with my Aussie statdec of income would suggest that anything more than 2 short sentences of English prose is beyond the capacity to understand of most Thai Immigration officers outside BKK.

 

Even inside BKK too... Don't think they're any better here. They're not. But they can read numbers.

 

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, bikerbri said:

The DWP have an international department for the transfer of pension income. I deposit my State pension into my U.K. bank account and they in turn transfer the funds to mt Thai Bank. Most international banks will transfer funds internationall for a small charge.

That's true, I have my small British pension sent to my Thai bank but my main pension is a mixture of a German state pension and a pension from my German firm this gets paid into my German account because although the German pension fund would send the money directly to Thailand my company won't and since I have a 4,000 Euro overdraft at my bank it's best to let things be, I'm sure many of us have some complications or other.

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

He now owes it to everyone to follow up that interview with the BE with another with all the questions being posed in this thread so there is total clarity. If poss get Thai immigration present too so she can’t mislead. 

 

Something TV can organise? 

Maybe get a different interviewer that doesn't stop pushing for the truth before it's revealed and doesn't conclude with a Pollyanna style rosy conclusion that doesn't actually objectively reflect the content in the interview? 

 

To add, I don't mean to diss him. I think he did a pretty good job but it was frustrating to hear him drop the ball just as he was starting to get close to extracting the real truth. Probably most local interviewers in our local "press" wouldn't have even got as close to that as he did.

But still an even more in depth inquiry would be welcome. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jingthing

[Peterw42]

6 minutes ago, meechai said:

Yes basically as I said

 

Deposit is real...no loophole

Claim you have it elsewhere helps Thailand ZERO should you stroke or need emergency operation  accident..etc etc etc

 

Yes I have sources...not to share...hear me now believe me later no problem

We dont get free medical in Thailand, the hospital bill for someone using the 800k deposit or the 65k monthly income is the same. Most expats have insurance, or a credit card, or you can transfer the money from anywhere in the world in 24 hours. You can have the 800k in thailand and spend it on a new car just after your extension, nothing in the bank for a stroke/operation etc. The cost of living is the same for deposit or income method.

Again, there is no loophole other than your wild conspiracy theory that people using the income method are somehow getting free medical. People using the deposit method are all paying for their medical emergencies.

 

[Moonlover]

38 minutes ago, jimn said:

No Immigration Office anywhere in Thailand accepts the 65,000 THB income method without the income letter from the BE

How do you know that?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

55 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

 

"Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats". How so?

 

 

Nothing in the Immigration rules requires the actual importing or spending of monthly income funds INSIDE Thailand.

 

By the change the BE is talking about, they're in effect talking about a significant back door rule change to suddenly require monthly income applicants to start bringing and depositing all those funds into Thai banks.

 

The Immigration rules simply do not, and never have, required that.

 

[tingtongtourist]

This fiits in with everything they doing on this supposed "crackdown radar farang"

IMO this will be used as a net to catch more people out.

 

Think about this:

IF you are legit English teacher or have legit job then you have work permit and it dont concern you..

 

BUT English teacher working without a permit

them working illegal,

boiler room guys

them just living month to month on shady income

digital nomads who are on the grey line working with no permit.

 

then you are all very well fบcked if they forced to submit bank statements directly to Immigrations.

 

maybe its that the embassies are through with lying on behalf of people they know are working illegaly in Thailand and trying to cover themself.

 

 

 

 

[bkkcanuck8]

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You are wrong. The Thais have NEVER required full import of claimed income into Thailand annually. 

The other option which is not under discussion here, the bank account option, not the income options, stands as is and yes that application is purely about showing the money IN THAILAND. Also not showing a required level of imports.

Don't make stuff up and don't conflate (as has the British embassy) the two types of applications. 

The intent of the retirement visa is that you are going to be spending a significant amount of money in Thailand.  If you are going to spend little more than your average Thai... it does not serve Thailand's interest to have someone come here. The expectation is always that a westerner is going to spend at least that amount of money here a year (otherwise why have the requirement at all - just show that you are not working).

[Expattaff1308]

Guy from Udon on another site posted....

I was in town Thursday so called into immigration to ask what my options were once the British Embassy stop the confirmation of income letter. I was told only one option, letter from the bank showing money in the bank. There will be no more monthly income option. When she then told me I could also get a 30 day extension I began to suspect she didn't have a clue what I was talking about and that I had wasted my time.

[Jip99]

53 minutes ago, smedly said:

There are certain things were those rules don't apply, child abuse being one of them

 

Yes, I would certainly agree with that and if I had local evidence of such activities I would happily grass the moron up. 

 

The old guy under the radar I would leave in peace.

[futsukayoi]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

You seem to be missing the notion that, aside from Immigration's rules, not everyone here NEEDS to be spending 65,000 per month to support themselves or their family. And, there NEVER has been any requirement that that amount of money either had to be spent or even brought into Thailand -- just has to have been received by the applicant as income OUTSIDE of Thailand.

 

And, given that Immigration's actual rules don't require either the importing of that sum into Thailand or the spending of that sum in Thailand, a lot of people have very valid reasons for NOT wanting to bring excess funds into Thailand or deposit those into Thai banks, including but not limited to, getting better return on their funds elsewhere and having more secure and more consumer friendly banking elsewhere than here.

 

A person can perfectly well be earning well in excess of the 65,000 per month, be fully complying with Immigration's monthly income requirement, and have no reason at all to bring those funds into Thailand or spend all of them here. You're trying to create and support a new system of rules that go beyond the actual rules Immigration has in place right now.

 

 

Fine, but how do you propose Thai immigration can confirm that you actually do have earnings in excess of 65,000 per month.  This could be from a large range of sources with supporting documentation in many languages. It is totally impractical for them to check and confirm the validity of all that even if they were willing to put in the massive resources and expenditure it would require.  I don't like having 800,000 baht sitting in an account here but if that is what the Thai's insist on I do it to stay here

 

[Kadilo]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Maybe get a different interviewer that doesn't stop pushing for the truth before it's revealed and doesn't conclude with a Pollyanna style rosy conclusion that doesn't actually objectively reflect the content in the interview? 

Agreed. There are some awkward questions following on from her statements that need clarifying. It shouldn’t be too difficult to formulate a list from this thread alone which have remained unanswered or require clarification from TI. 

If the BE is out of sync it needs to Be exposed before it becomes “accepted” as can be demonstrated by some in this thread. 

[55Jay]

13 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The crazy fact is, is that Thai Immigration insist on a letter from embassy's of all nationalities that doesn't prove a thing.

I have a feeling this letter business was created by the Thais, trying to avoid dealing with cranky old buggers and their various bits of paper from whatever country they're from.   

 

Surely, Thai Immigration isn't interested in taking on this paper tiger again, so they'll continue to accept the letters, and reserve the right to ask for more evidence randomly, or as necessary, which is how it works now.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by 55Jay

[alant]

[soalbundy]

12 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The crazy fact is, is that Thai Immigration insist on a letter from embassy's of all nationalities that doesn't prove a thing.

It doesn't have to, it fulfils the letter(pardon the pun) of the law and is nice and easy for the IO, now the BE is rocking the boat.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

The intent of the retirement visa is that you are going to be spending a significant amount of money in Thailand.  If you are going to spend little more than your average Thai... it does not serve Thailand's interest to have someone come here. The expectation is always that a westerner is going to spend at least that amount of money here a year (otherwise why have the requirement at all - just show that you are not working).

You're playing philosophy games.

I'm talking about actual RULES.

Thailand immigration has NEVER required full import of claimed income (in the letters) into Thailand either annually or monthly.

Thailand immigration has NEVER as well required a particular level of spending.

I agree of course they would prefer that we all spend here like wild banshees.

But this is about RULES. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jingthing

[Kadilo]

1 minute ago, Expattaff1308 said:

Guy from Udon on another site posted....

I was in town Thursday so called into immigration to ask what my options were once the British Embassy stop the confirmation of income letter. I was told only one option, letter from the bank showing money in the bank. There will be no more monthly income option. When she then told me I could also get a 30 day extension I began to suspect she didn't have a clue what I was talking about and that I had wasted my time.

To be fair it wouldn’t have been rolled out yet if what the BE lady says is true ......and that a big if