Denmark Embassy Has Stopped Doing Pension Letters

[KhunFred]

If these embassies think these actions are going to pressure Thai Immigration into changing their ways, they are mistaken. I have never seen Thais budge an inch when faced with intimidation. It's a face thing. They would happily let expats leave for the Philippines and hope for more tourism from China.

[Tanoshi]

7 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

If these embassies think these actions are going to pressure Thai Immigration into changing their ways, they are mistaken. I have never seen Thais budge an inch when faced with intimidation. It's a face thing. They would happily let expats leave for the Philippines and hope for more tourism from China.

These recent developments affect the single expats much more so than the married men.

 

Married men have 'a get out of jail' card, because as a last resort they can always obtain the Non Imm O ME Visa at Savannakhet (no proof of funds) to facilitate their long term stay in Thailand.

 

For the single expats it's a different matter, they have the 'do not pass go, do not collect 200' card.

Not many alternative options.

If no new directive confirming new income requirements are forthcoming from Immigration, then some may be forced to leave.

 

 

[KhunFred]

6 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

These recent developments affect the single expats much more so than the married men.

 

Married men have 'a get out of jail' card, because as a last resort they can always obtain the Non Imm O ME Visa at Savannakhet (no proof of funds) to facilitate their long term stay in Thailand.

 

For the single expats it's a different matter, they have the 'do not pass go, do not collect 200' card.

Not many alternative options.

If no new directive confirming new income requirements are forthcoming from Immigration, then some may be forced to leave.

 

 

So I should seek the Non Imm O ME Visa at Savannakhet? That may solve a few of my problems. I can tighten my belt to handle my debt crisis and my fiancee is willing to help by doing everything she can. I can easily prove funds of 40 thousand baht, assuming I can stop the transfer of my funds from Bangkok Bank to my credit union. I got my Non-O at Vientiane and they were very lax on the "proof of funds" thing. I had my letter, but had to show them some American documents which seemed to satisfy them. Good advice, so far.

[Wanderlust]

2 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

So I should seek the Non Imm O ME Visa at Savannakhet? That may solve a few of my problems. I can tighten my belt to handle my debt crisis and my fiancee is willing to help by doing everything she can. I can easily prove funds of 40 thousand baht, assuming I can stop the transfer of my funds from Bangkok Bank to my credit union. I got my Non-O at Vientiane and they were very lax on the "proof of funds" thing. I had my letter, but had to show them some American documents which seemed to satisfy them. Good advice, so far.

I don't think you can get a non O on the basis of marriage if you only have a fiancee, so was the non O you got in Vientiane on the basis of being over 50?

[roobaa01]

49 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Because of the high cost of living in those countries. Great pensions for those emigrating to countries like Thailand.

exactly

 

wbr

roobaa01

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

What use is that if your not married and it's less than 40K baht a month anyway.

Then use the combination method if they preserve that.

 

For example, 30k monthly income x 12 is 360K.

Fund a seasoned Thai bank account of at least 440K.

Sorted.

 

The "use" would mean you wouldn't need to have an 800K account. It could be less.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

Some will be going, going, and some are already gone.

 

The combination method is dying along with the Embassy letters.

Let's think clearly about this, shall we?

If the embassy letters go away (for some, already has) then the status quo is income applications are impossible because they require the embassy letters.

If you have an embassy letter today, the combination method still stands.

They are basically different flavors of the same thing as both are income methods.

At this point, we've got basically NOTHING from Thai immigration about what their plan is going to be (if anything) to accommodate people without embassy letters for income methods, and that includes combination method applications.

 

Jomtien immigration chief has told people directly there will be no income applications accepted next year AT ALL (obviously included combos) from any nationality and that includes people with letters they thought were good for six months. So Danes maybe don't feel so lonely. 

 

Of course Jomtien (and others) may change their tune if they get a clear directive from the central government. Hopefully so! 

So hold your horses. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Jingthing

[roobaa01]

22 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Let's think clearly about this, shall we?

If the embassy letters go away (for some, already has) then the status quo is income applications are impossible because they require the embassy letters.

If you have an embassy letter today, the combination method still stands.

They are basically different flavors of the same thing as both are income methods.

At this point, we've got basically NOTHING from Thai immigration about what their plan is going to be (if anything) to accommodate people without embassy letters for income methods, and that includes combination method applications.

 

Jomtien immigration chief has told people directly there will be no income applications accepted next year AT ALL (obviously included combos) from any nationality and that includes people with letters they thought were good for six months. So Danes maybe don't feel so lonely. 

 

Of course Jomtien (and others) may change their tune if they get a clear directive from the central government. Hopefully so! 

So hold your horses. 

that is a bombshell dropped, will make a lot of people tear off their hair, agents will be busy

wbr roobaa01

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, roobaa01 said:

in general scandinavia offers next to switzerland pretty good pensions.

 

wbr

roobaa01

Everything you ever wanted to know about the Danish pension system is in the attached.

Pension payments are not equally distributed. If you were a lawyer or a doctor your whole life, you will end up with a fat pension, but if you were unemployed or doing "lower" level jobs, your pension will also reflect that. To be fair, I think we all know what demographic group is most likely to settle down with his tirac in Nakhon-nowhere.

From the below, 2/3 of Danes have pensions have yearly pre-taxed pensions from 535,000 - 1,065,000 baht or 44k-89k baht monthly.

 

"Tilsvarende er høje disponible indkomster blandt pensionister forholdsvist sjældne. Omkring ⅔ af personer over 67 år havde i 2014 en disponibel indkomst mellem knap 107.000 og medianindkomsten på ca. 213.000 kr"

 

det danske pensionssystem nu og i fremtiden.pdf

Edited November 17, 2018 by ExpatOilWorker

[HHTel]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Let's think clearly about this, shall we?

If the embassy letters go away (for some, already has) then the status quo is income applications are impossible because they require the embassy letters.

If you have an embassy letter today, the combination method still stands.

They are basically different flavors of the same thing as both are income methods.

At this point, we've got basically NOTHING from Thai immigration about what their plan is going to be (if anything) to accommodate people without embassy letters for income methods, and that includes combination method applications.

 

Jomtien immigration chief has told people directly there will be no income applications accepted next year AT ALL (obviously included combos) from any nationality and that includes people with letters they thought were good for six months. So Danes maybe don't feel so lonely. 

 

Of course Jomtien (and others) may change their tune if they get a clear directive from the central government. Hopefully so! 

So hold your horses. 

That has also been stated at my immigration office and there are several posts saying the same of other immigration offices. As immigration caused this and now have to deal with it, they will choose the easiest way.  That could well be 'money in the bank' as the only option.  We'll see!

[joevanwyck]

4 minutes ago, HHTel said:

That has also been stated at my immigration office and there are several posts saying the same of other immigration offices. As immigration caused this and now have to deal with it, they will choose the easiest way.  That could well be 'money in the bank' as the only option.  We'll see!

I think that money in a Thai Bank is the only option.

[Jingthing]

I think that money in a Thai Bank is the only option.

The smart money is preparing to use that method if possible. Based on what we know now.

 

Could be different next week.

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[OneeyedJohn]

£1 = 42.17  baht doesn't help matters

[Tanoshi]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Let's think clearly about this, shall we?

If the embassy letters go away (for some, already has) then the status quo is income applications are impossible because they require the embassy letters.

If you have an embassy letter today, the combination method still stands.

They are basically different flavors of the same thing as both are income methods.

At this point, we've got basically NOTHING from Thai immigration about what their plan is going to be (if anything) to accommodate people without embassy letters for income methods, and that includes combination method applications.

Let's stop confusing the issue by stating the current position and the future conditions.

We all know the current options, so let's keep to possible options for the future.

 

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Jomtien immigration chief has told people directly there will be no income applications accepted next year AT ALL (obviously included combos) from any nationality and that includes people with letters they thought were good for six months. So Danes maybe don't feel so lonely. 

So what have you done about their stance.

[khunPer]

5 hours ago, roobaa01 said:

in general scandinavia offers next to switzerland pretty good pensions.

 

wbr

roobaa01

A Danish government pension, if you retire in Thailand and live there 183 days or more a year, is little over 6,200 Danish kroner (DKK) a month, which after tax pays just over 5,300 DKK. At exchange rate 5 baht to DKK it's little less than 27,000 baht a month.

 

If you instead decide to stay in Denmark, you will be eligible for for additions in the government pension, depending on other income, and size of private retirement pensions. The additions are gross, before tax, between little more than 3,300 DKK to almost 7,000 DKK. You are however not eligible for any extras when moving outside Europe.

 

Most Danes have on top a tiny government installed life-long work pension, called "ATP", that vary, but might be as high as 23,500 DKK, which after tax is close to 15,000 DKK, or another 6,000 baht a month.

 

The Danish tax rate when resident is Thailand is close to 37%, but everybody has a personal deduction in tax, equalizing tax of 46,000 DKK or close to 17,000 DKK, which is why the tax of the basic government retirement pension is so low.

 

However, you need to have been living in Denmark for 40 years in total from you are 16 years old, and until retirement age at 65, to be eligible to full government pension, each year missing will reduce the gross payment with 1/40th.

 

If a Dane living in Thailand only has the government retirement pension and ATP, it's not more than 30,000 to 33,000 baht a month. I presume "pretty good pension" is a relative size...????

 

A number of Danes have a private retirement pension on top, many running 10-15 years only, and some has private savings that pays a dividend or interest.

????

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Let's stop confusing the issue by stating the current position and the future conditions.

We all know the current options, so let's keep to possible options for the future.

 

So what have you done about their stance.

Me? Nothing. I've been using the 800K bank method. I was planning on switching to the combo method but that's on hold now and perhaps forever.

Or were you suggesting I start a protest march or something? ????

[Peterw42]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Jomtien immigration chief has told people directly there will be no income applications accepted next year AT ALL (obviously included combos) from any nationality and that includes people with letters they thought were good for six months. So Danes maybe don't feel so lonely. 

Where did this come from ? A statement, quote, 2nd hand information ?

[Tanoshi]

19 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Where did this come from ? A statement, quote, 2nd hand information ?

Apparently straight from the horses mouth.

Or maybe the Ass's mouth, the big one, in charge at Jomtien.

A few expats have reported the same, but as of yet, there are no reports of anyone making a complaint.

[Jingthing]

Apparently straight from the horses mouth.
Or maybe the Ass's mouth, the big one, in charge at Jomtien.
A few expats have reported the same, but as of yet, there are no reports of anyone making a complaint.

Complaint to whom? About what? Thai immigration makes and enforces the rules. We try to follow them and if we can't we suffer the consequences.
Its not like buying a defective vacuum cleaner.

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[Peterw42]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Complaint to whom? About what? Thai immigration makes and enforces the rules. We try to follow them and if we can't we suffer the consequences.
Its not like buying a defective vacuum cleaner.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

An immigration officer in a bar told my mate that TI will continue to do vacuum cleaner warranty repairs, so long as you have a receipt verified by the Embassy.

[Tanoshi]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Complaint to whom? About what?

Not following the Directive that Embassy Income letters are valid for 6 months.

Immigration directive for income letters.pdf

 

Well I know where I'd start with my complaint, then take it through the chain of command.

Alternatively, do nothing and perhaps have up to 4 weeks to pack your bags and leave.

[Olmate]

18 hours ago, The Truth said:

Well, your friend should have no difficulty whatsoever depositing the 800k in a Thai bank account, should he?

He's free to take a stand on a point of principle but they'll just refuse his extension and he can go elsewhere.

More of the same from another, why bother?I,m guessing you don’t qualify either

[Nielsk]

On 11/16/2018 at 11:06 PM, Psychic said:

Sadly, I think the average Thai actually does want us here.

The owner of the local shop that I go to so often that the wife calls her "my girlfriend" wouldn't be happy if I left.

The guy I pay to take care of the garden and share a beer with afterwards doesn't want me to leave.

Likewise the family run restaurant we visit for some noodle soup and a beer.

The Thais I paid to build our house, the local suppliers of building materials, big shops like Thai Watsadu who got at least 3 million in revenue.

Nissan Thailand who I bought my truck from.

I could go on.

None of these people or entities want me, or people like me, to leave Thailand.

While we may not be the preferred high spenders that the Bangkok elite desire we continually pump money into the local economy.

Do you know how much these people will gain from high end tourists or the Chinese bus riders.

Precisely zero.

I get all the arguments about the near destitute farangs that will burden the system.

But this is an incredibly small percentage of expats.

Most of us are financially independent though not wealthy.

We contribute much more to local economies than we will ever take out of them.

We pay for education of Thai children.

 And on the whole we add to the Thai economy without burdening it.

I am not sure where this push to make it more difficult for long stay farangs is coming from.

I read TV almost daily and I don't see any kind of crime wave from retirees and married farangs.

Maybe there are multiple unreported incidents of bad behaviour I am not aware of.

Maybe it's a kind if racist xenophobia, certainly the pictures I see of black people targeted by Immigration suggests that. But maybe there are a lot of African criminals here.

Certainly there doesn't seem to be a problem with a million Burmese/Cambodian/Lao people here who, almost certainly, beyond providing cheap labor contribute far less to the Thai economy than western expats.

As always I am confused by policy decisions here.

My friend who lives well, has 3 golf memberships, lives in a 15 million baht condo relies on an income statement.

He probably spends less than 65000 every month.

Last year he bought a new SUV for about 1.5 million.

He is fully capable of putting 800K in the bank but chooses to earn about 80K abroad.

Do you really want to put an individual like that in a position where he cannot extend his visa by any recognised means because his embassy pulls off the immediate withdrawal of income letters he has used for the last 18 years?

That's what you want to do to a 78 year old man who has poured 10's of millions of baht into the Thai economy?

Lots of bananas here.

????

While we may not be the preferred high spenders that the Bangkok elite desire we continually pump money into the local economy." Spot on !!  Every word You state is so true !

[GeorgeCross]

On 11/16/2018 at 11:06 PM, Psychic said:

Sadly, I think the average Thai actually does want us here.

The owner of the local shop that I go to so often that the wife calls her "my girlfriend" wouldn't be happy if I left.

The guy I pay to take care of the garden and share a beer with afterwards doesn't want me to leave.

Likewise the family run restaurant we visit for some noodle soup and a beer.

The Thais I paid to build our house, the local suppliers of building materials, big shops like Thai Watsadu who got at least 3 million in revenue.

Nissan Thailand who I bought my truck from.

I could go on.

None of these people or entities want me, or people like me, to leave Thailand.

While we may not be the preferred high spenders that the Bangkok elite desire we continually pump money into the local economy.

Do you know how much these people will gain from high end tourists or the Chinese bus riders.

Precisely zero.

I get all the arguments about the near destitute farangs that will burden the system.

But this is an incredibly small percentage of expats.

Most of us are financially independent though not wealthy.

We contribute much more to local economies than we will ever take out of them.

We pay for education of Thai children.

 And on the whole we add to the Thai economy without burdening it.

I am not sure where this push to make it more difficult for long stay farangs is coming from.

I read TV almost daily and I don't see any kind of crime wave from retirees and married farangs.

Maybe there are multiple unreported incidents of bad behaviour I am not aware of.

Maybe it's a kind if racist xenophobia, certainly the pictures I see of black people targeted by Immigration suggests that. But maybe there are a lot of African criminals here.

Certainly there doesn't seem to be a problem with a million Burmese/Cambodian/Lao people here who, almost certainly, beyond providing cheap labor contribute far less to the Thai economy than western expats.

As always I am confused by policy decisions here.

My friend who lives well, has 3 golf memberships, lives in a 15 million baht condo relies on an income statement.

He probably spends less than 65000 every month.

Last year he bought a new SUV for about 1.5 million.

He is fully capable of putting 800K in the bank but chooses to earn about 80K abroad.

Do you really want to put an individual like that in a position where he cannot extend his visa by any recognised means because his embassy pulls off the immediate withdrawal of income letters he has used for the last 18 years?

That's what you want to do to a 78 year old man who has poured 10's of millions of baht into the Thai economy?

Lots of bananas here.

????

 

 

sorry i'm confused, which is it, he has the money but too much of a 'big face' to deposit it or he doesn't have it?

 

he certainly has a recognised means to stay if he does.

 

he'll just have to get over himself to sort it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by GeorgeCross

[JackThompson]

28 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

sorry i'm confused, which is it, he has the money but too much of a 'big face' to deposit it or he doesn't have it?

 

he certainly has a recognised means to stay if he does.

 

he'll just have to get over himself to sort it.

Quite possibly, he invested here, in addition to regular spending (which adds up over time) to reach the figure stated.  These purchases may have been made precisely because money "in the bank" was not needed for extensions.  He would not have ever dreamed this would happen - as I am sure many who thought they were "safe" here, are now feeling.  Many using the income-method may now be wishing they had not bought their condos and other asset-purchases in Thailand, so they could have those funds "in the bank", instead. 

 

How many will buy condos (motos, cars, etc) in the future will be determined by immigration-policy going forward - but this deafening silence on "what now" for income-based extensions, is not an encouraging selling-point for investing in anything in Thailand, unless one has 1M Baht or so "extra" on-top to put into bank-accounts, elite visas, etc.

[Thaidream]

25 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

How many will buy condos (motos, cars, etc) in the future will be determined by immigration-policy going forward - but this deafening silence on "what now" for income-based extensions, is not an encouraging selling-point for investing in anything in Thailand, unless one has 1M Baht or so "extra" on-top to put into bank-accounts, elite visas, etc.

Absolutely correct!!  Many of us have put a great deal of funds into A Condo and a house plus taking care of Thai Mother in Law; Father in Laws and extended families.  I was going to invest in  a new car for the wife and buy a used one for the in laws.   That won't be happening now or in the future. In fact, i doubt I will ever  make a large, hard purchase in Thailand again. My  Thai spouse while disappointed understands completely and believes that if this is not solved amicably- foreigners will not spend  money investing in Thailand.

 

I simply cannot trust any system that is in place and I am sure I am not alone.

 

I blame both the Embassies and Thai Imm for this fiasco- more so the Embassies as they simply refused to negotiate an agreement and understand how Thai bureaucracy works and thinks.  It's called Diplomacy and they have failed miserably- leaving the citizens as the scapegoats.

 

At the very least- there could have been a one year validity of Embassy Letters negotiated which would  give citizens a chance to adjust to this change.  The Danish Embassy is especially egregious simply cutting their citizens off abruptly. The 1 year interval could have allowed  people to  marry; to sell assets; to borrow funds or to move out.

As of this  minute- we have no real guidance; no real interest any longer  by our Embassies in  working with us for a reasonable solution and we are left with reports by our citizens on what happens to them when they actually visit  a Thai Imm office.

 

 

[OneeyedJohn]

I am off next week to my immigrating office for 90 day report. I will,  if the opportunity arises delicately touch on when I may apply for my extension of stay renewal, which is due 29.1.2019. Whatever he/she says I will most definitely be going for the 2018 option if available.

 

I am also in the throes of getting a proof of income letter from the BE. 

 

Sadly, a small pension I get was looking good for a lump sum settlement which I would have taken however small, but that hasn't materialised. 

 

Will have to cut down on the beer / whiskey for 9 months.

 

 

[skatewash]

15 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Absolutely correct!!  Many of us have put a great deal of funds into A Condo and a house plus taking care of Thai Mother in Law; Father in Laws and extended families.  I was going to invest in  a new car for the wife and buy a used one for the in laws.   That won't be happening now or in the future. In fact, i doubt I will ever  make a large, hard purchase in Thailand again. My  Thai spouse while disappointed understands completely and believes that if this is not solved amicably- foreigners will not spend  money investing in Thailand.

 

I simply cannot trust any system that is in place and I am sure I am not alone.

 

I blame both the Embassies and Thai Imm for this fiasco- more so the Embassies as they simply refused to negotiate an agreement and understand how Thai bureaucracy works and thinks.  It's called Diplomacy and they have failed miserably- leaving the citizens as the scapegoats.

 

At the very least- there could have been a one year validity of Embassy Letters negotiated which would  give citizens a chance to adjust to this change.  The Danish Embassy is especially egregious simply cutting their citizens off abruptly. The 1 year interval could have allowed  people to  marry; to sell assets; to borrow funds or to move out.

As of this  minute- we have no real guidance; no real interest any longer  by our Embassies in  working with us for a reasonable solution and we are left with reports by our citizens on what happens to them when they actually visit  a Thai Imm office.

 

 

When thinking about the role of the embassies in this it is important to acknowledge the agency problem.  The interests of the people at the embassy simply don't align with those of their clientele.  One has to realize that from the perspective of the embassy tomorrow's cucumber and watercress sandwich will taste much like today's.  The only effect of them not doing the embassy income letter is a reduction in their workload.  Bureaucracy the world over exists to perpetuate itself in the style to which it has become accustomed, nothing more, nothing less.

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Absolutely correct!!  Many of us have put a great deal of funds into A Condo and a house plus taking care of Thai Mother in Law; Father in Laws and extended families.  I was going to invest in  a new car for the wife and buy a used one for the in laws.   That won't be happening now or in the future. In fact, i doubt I will ever  make a large, hard purchase in Thailand again. My  Thai spouse while disappointed understands completely and believes that if this is not solved amicably- foreigners will not spend  money investing in Thailand.

 

I simply cannot trust any system that is in place and I am sure I am not alone.

 

I blame both the Embassies and Thai Imm for this fiasco- more so the Embassies as they simply refused to negotiate an agreement and understand how Thai bureaucracy works and thinks.  It's called Diplomacy and they have failed miserably- leaving the citizens as the scapegoats.

 

At the very least- there could have been a one year validity of Embassy Letters negotiated which would  give citizens a chance to adjust to this change.  The Danish Embassy is especially egregious simply cutting their citizens off abruptly. The 1 year interval could have allowed  people to  marry; to sell assets; to borrow funds or to move out.

As of this  minute- we have no real guidance; no real interest any longer  by our Embassies in  working with us for a reasonable solution and we are left with reports by our citizens on what happens to them when they actually visit  a Thai Imm office.

 

 

No doubt the BE rep. (who talked to Pattaya radio) is preparing herself to visit every Immigration office that refuses to accept the BE letter after the end of the year....????.

[Jingthing]

No doubt the BE rep. (who talked to Pattaya radio) is preparing herself to visit every Immigration office that refuses to accept the BE letter after the end of the year....[emoji16].

What's British for when pigs fly?

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