25 minutes ago, bomber said:

i doubt corbyn would get as many as 200 from his troops????  

Corbyn is a hardcore brexiter as he is old timer socialist, who still think in the silly way that communists would come to his assistance. Really, Venezuela? While China might sound in paper to still be a communist country, they have always been more capitalist country than we could ever be.

 

Labour party could be filled with 7 years old kids and they would make more sense what the current labour is doing. Really, is this displaying the state of the British people today?

 

Tory's current state could be filed as hormone heavy 15 year old teenager. All feelings, no facts.

 

56 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

As you know, T May won a vote of confidence from 200 of her fellow conservative M.P’s.

So what will happen next, perhaps a call for the vote of confidence to be repeated, as they did’t know what they were voting for????????????

i doubt corbyn would get as many as 200 from his troops????  

Ireland seems to be the problem for the UK/EU and brexit,somethings never change,let the south have the north its what half of them want anyway,that tiny piece of land is no use to nobody.

Who paid for Brexit? 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/peopleandpower/

I can do absolute everything I want regarding of my words on this forum (well, not really everything).
 
Do you think, Educated vote, would sound pretty good? Should that been pushed forward?

Well you haven't explained yet what the problem is with MY suggestion for the naming of this referendum (that mustn't be called a referendum, lest anyone realise it's the same thing we did two years ago) and why it can't be used. I appreciate it's a bit long but we can make an acronym if necessary.

Eagerly awaiting your reply.

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I hope you're right but I think it may be impossible to stop completely. More likely is that TM will now be able to sideline the hard-core Brexiteers who have very little support in parliament and gain a majority for the softest of Brexits. Much will depend on the DUP and the Labour leadership.

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You don't seem to get it. By playing fast and loose with democracy in order to get the result you want, the level of discontent there's going to be, is going to make the last 40 years of disagreement over the EU look like a teddy bear's picnic.

The EU issue has to be put to bed at the end of this, whatever the outcome, so everyone can move on. What you would like - a complete reversal of the vote - or what you suspect will happen - a watered down Brexit - will see the matter fester all the worse.

There's only one way the country moves on. Proper Brexit is delivered and a few years are given for it to work or fail.

After that, no more referendums but voters can vote for whichever party carries the promise of returning to the EU. If Brexit is a disaster as you are sure it will be, I think it's a safe bet to say that Labour would be only too happy to gobble up all the votes that campaigning on a platform of "we'll undo the mess the Tories created" would bring, with some Blairite Europhile at the helm like Chuka Umunna.

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14 minutes ago, rixalex said:

You don't seem to get it. By playing fast and loose with democracy in order to get the result you want, the level of discontent there's going to be, is going to make the last 40 years of disagreement over the EU look like a teddy bear's picnic.

The EU issue has to be put to bed at the end of this, whatever the outcome, so everyone can move on. What you would like - a complete reversal of the vote - or what you suspect will happen - a watered down Brexit - will see the matter fester all the worse.

There's only one way the country moves on. Proper Brexit is delivered and a few years are given for it to work or fail.

After that, no more referendums but voters can vote for whichever party carries the promise of returning to the EU. If Brexit is a disaster as you are sure it will be, I think it's a safe bet to say that Labour would be only too happy to gobble up all the votes that campaigning on a platform of "we'll undo the mess the Tories created" would bring, with some Blairite Europhile at the helm like Chuka Umunna.

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Spot on.

 

In a nutshell. That is exactly where we are - and where we are going.

 

I have to admit we have so many brexit threads I'm struggling to find the right one for the maximum exposure of posts.????

 

Here is the economist Liam Halligan explaining why a no deal might not be such a bad idea, of course we have the rude remainer Polly Toynbee calling him names.

43 minutes ago, rixalex said:

You don't seem to get it. By playing fast and loose with democracy in order to get the result you want, the level of discontent there's going to be, is going to make the last 40 years of disagreement over the EU look like a teddy bear's picnic.

The EU issue has to be put to bed at the end of this, whatever the outcome, so everyone can move on. What you would like - a complete reversal of the vote - or what you suspect will happen - a watered down Brexit - will see the matter fester all the worse.

There's only one way the country moves on. Proper Brexit is delivered and a few years are given for it to work or fail.

After that, no more referendums but voters can vote for whichever party carries the promise of returning to the EU. If Brexit is a disaster as you are sure it will be, I think it's a safe bet to say that Labour would be only too happy to gobble up all the votes that campaigning on a platform of "we'll undo the mess the Tories created" would bring, with some Blairite Europhile at the helm like Chuka Umunna.

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Your arguments boil down to, democracy has been suspended by the referendum.

 

It has not.

24 minutes ago, vogie said:

I have to admit we have so many brexit threads I'm struggling to find the right one for the maximum exposure of posts.????

 

Here is the economist Liam Halligan explaining why a no deal might not be such a bad idea, of course we have the rude remainer Polly Toynbee calling him names.

Is Halliger an exception amongst economists, being one who Brexiteers believe gets his forecasts right?

 

Right or wrong, his Irish citizenship is a nice insurance.

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Is Halliger an exception amongst economists, being one who Brexiteers believe gets his forecasts right?

 

Right or wrong, his Irish citizenship is a nice insurance.

So can I put you down as a 'like' or a 'confused' ????

Your arguments boil down to, democracy has been suspended by the referendum.
 
It has not.

My argument boils down to, you implement the outcome of one democratic process before you move on to the next.

Your argument boils down to, skipping over implementing the results of democratic processes you don't agree with, calling for the start of a new democratic process, and calling anyone who dares complain, "what happened to implementing the result of the last vote?", as anti-democratic. And all with a straight face. Amazing.

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4 hours ago, rixalex said:

My argument boils down to, you implement the outcome of one democratic process before you move on to the next.

Your argument boils down to, skipping over implementing the results of democratic processes you don't agree with, calling for the start of a new democratic process, and calling anyone who dares complain, "what happened to implementing the result of the last vote?", as anti-democratic. And all with a straight face. Amazing.

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But you don't have to implement an opinion poll

7 minutes ago, tebee said:

But you don't have to implement an opinion poll

I'm sure if the voting public had known you had interests in France they would have voted remain.

 

Why should the government not implement the opinion poll that they promised they would implement when the electorate voted to leave. Do you ever respect other peoples opinons?

 

 

Until Britain accepts that there will be a cost to brexit, either economically through a no deal brexit or politically through restrictions as a result of having to accept a certain amount of EU regulation, this ridiculous back and forth will go on.

 

The end game? Probably a referendum as the only way to give politicians cover for the inevitable cost, or cover for a reversal of the 2016 referendum.
 

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

Why should the government not implement the opinion poll that they promised they would implement when the electorate voted to leave. Do you ever respect other peoples opinons?

This has been answered hundreds of time already:

 

1. Because the referendum was heavily manipulated by lies and false promises. If you don’t declare it void altogether, at least double-check whether the people in light of all the new information still want Brexit or not. 

 

2. Because people only voted for Brexit, but now it is also about future relationships with the EU. Why would you consult people only for half of the question?

 

There really is no reason to not have a referendum. There are only benefits. 

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

Until Britain accepts that there will be a cost to brexit, either economically through a no deal brexit or politically through restrictions as a result of having to accept a certain amount of EU regulation, this ridiculous back and forth will go on.

 

The end game? Probably a referendum as the only way to give politicians cover for the inevitable cost, or cover for a reversal of the 2016 referendum.
 

THe majority of MPs dont want brexit,the longer the chaos the more chance of a reversal/new vote,Labour arent really pushing for an election as they know the EU wont change the deal,ideally for them brexit is scrapped they gain power which is a certainty and at least they have a foundation to build on instead of a no deal chaotic mess,that will come after 2 years in power.

5 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

This has been answered hundreds of time already:

 

1. Because the referendum was heavily manipulated by lies and false promises. If you don’t declare it void altogether, at least double-check whether the people in light of all the new information still want Brexit or not. 

 

2. Because people only voted for Brexit, but now it is also about future relationships with the EU. Why would you consult people only for half of the question?

 

There really is no reason to not have a referendum. There are only benefits. 

Kicking that old chestnut down the road, "lies and false promises" will only hurt your big toe. Many people have told you that lies were told by both sides. I know you have little confidence in the ability for the Brits to think for themselves, but trust me, we can. Why can't you be honest a say your only interest in the UK remaining part of the EU is purely our golf club subscriptions.

 

"There really is no reason to not have a referendum. There are only benefits."

Again we had a referendum 2 years ago, that is good enough reason not to have another. The people that voted to leave have not changed their minds, infact are even more resolute to do so with all the intrangience from the EU and mismanagement from Mrs May. If we do not leave the EU it will be the fault of Parliament going against the wish of the majority of the people and nothing else.

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Kicking that old chestnut down the road, "lies and false promises" will only hurt your big toe. Many people have told you that lies were told by both sides. I know you have little confidence in the ability for the Brits to think for themselves, but trust me, we can. Why can't you be honest a say your only interest in the UK remaining part of the EU is purely our golf club subscriptions.

 

"There really is no reason to not have a referendum. There are only benefits."

Again we had a referendum 2 years ago, that is good enough reason not to have another. The people that voted to leave have not changed their minds, infact are even more resolute to do so with all the intrangience from the EU and mismanagement from Mrs May. If we do not leave the EU it will be the fault of Parliament going against the wish of the majority of the people and nothing else.

If you were assured of your claims regarding people's minds wrt to Brexit having become even more resolute you'd welcome a second referendum with open arms, if only to rub the result you feel assured of in the faces of Remain supporters. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Kicking that old chestnut down the road, "lies and false promises" will only hurt your big toe. Many people have told you that lies were told by both sides.

And I have replied several times that (1) when I say “heavily manipulated” that can I include both sides; and (2) even more lies and manipulation means even more reason for declaring the vote void or at least holding it again. 

 

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

I know you have little confidence in the ability for the Brits to think for themselves, but trust me, we can.

Oh, I didn’t know you were the authority to decide that. Should we scrap democracy altogether and just ask you?

 

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

"There really is no reason to not have a referendum. There are only benefits."

Again we had a referendum 2 years ago, that is good enough reason not to have another. The people that voted to leave have not changed their minds, infact are even more resolute to do so with all the intrangience from the EU and mismanagement from Mrs May. If we do not leave the EU it will be the fault of Parliament going against the wish of the majority of the people and nothing else.

You keep failing to bring any good arguments against a referendum, while you keep ignoring all the good arguments for a referendum. It’s so obvious that you know that people wouldn’t vote for this nonsense again. 

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If you were assured of your claims regarding people's minds wrt to Brexit having become even more resolute you'd welcome a second referendum with open arms, if only to rub the result you feel assured of in the faces of Remain supporters. 

 

 

That's democracy. Do you think we should ignore the votes of the leavers and just do what you want, that's how it appears to me.

8 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

And I have replied several times that (1) when I say “heavily manipulated” that can I include both sides; and (2) even more lies and manipulation means even more reason for declaring the vote void or at least holding it again. 

 

Oh, I didn’t know you were the authority to decide that. Should we scrap democracy altogether and just ask you?

 

You keep failing to bring any good arguments against a referendum, while you keep ignoring all the good arguments for a referendum. It’s so obvious that you know that people wouldn’t vote for this nonsense again. 

Yes indeed you are getting very boring and tedious with your "heavy manipulated" matra, you say you have repeated it several times, I counted 7 just the other day, in reality we must be much much higher than that, but if you can't find another avenue to debate, stick with what you're good at I suppose.

 

I can only repeat, we have had a referendum, sorry it didn't meet your criteria.

14 minutes ago, vogie said:

Kicking that old chestnut down the road, "lies and false promises" will only hurt your big toe. Many people have told you that lies were told by both sides. I know you have little confidence in the ability for the Brits to think for themselves, but trust me, we can. Why can't you be honest a say your only interest in the UK remaining part of the EU is purely our golf club subscriptions.

 

"There really is no reason to not have a referendum. There are only benefits."

Again we had a referendum 2 years ago, that is good enough reason not to have another. The people that voted to leave have not changed their minds, infact are even more resolute to do so with all the intrangience from the EU and mismanagement from Mrs May. If we do not leave the EU it will be the fault of Parliament going against the wish of the majority of the people and nothing else.

Brits thinking for themselves ????  trust you because you think they can ????   What Brits think and what is likely to happen will be miles apart,only 30-35% of MPs want brexit,even less companies and employers and probably 20-30% who voted for it wouldnt want it now,Branson the latest to voice his opinion saying the country will be bankrupt with a no deal,the country already is bankrupt i think he means more bankrupt ????

1 minute ago, bomber said:

Brits thinking for themselves ????  trust you because you think they can ????   What Brits think and what is likely to happen will be miles apart,only 30-35% of MPs want brexit,even less companies and employers and probably 20-30% who voted for it wouldnt want it now,Branson the latest to voice his opinion saying the country will be bankrupt with a no deal,the country already is bankrupt i think he means more bankrupt ????

Branson said he would be bankrupt, I didn't hear him say the country. But just because he says it doesn't make it so.

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

Branson said he would be bankrupt, I didn't hear him say the country. But just because he says it doesn't make it so.

Branson bankrupt???? somehow i think not.You need to take more notice he was referring to the nation.Cannot be many more big businesses left now who havent stated a no deal is suicide.

Brexit_ No-deal will near-bankrupt UK, says Branson - BBC News.html

2 minutes ago, bomber said:

Branson bankrupt???? somehow i think not.You need to take more notice he was referring to the nation.Cannot be many more big businesses left now who havent stated a no deal is suicide.

Brexit_ No-deal will near-bankrupt UK, says Branson - BBC News.html

Many disagree with him, he's entitled to his opinion, doesn't make him right though. We have never been through brexit before, nobody knows.

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

This has been answered hundreds of time already:

 

1. Because the referendum was heavily manipulated by lies and false promises. If you don’t declare it void altogether, at least double-check whether the people in light of all the new information still want Brexit or not. 

 

2. Because people only voted for Brexit, but now it is also about future relationships with the EU. Why would you consult people only for half of the question?

 

There really is no reason to not have a referendum. There are only benefits. 

We were certainly lied to in 1975, when we were assured by our political leaders that we would be joining a trading Union,and only a trading Union.

Likewise in the run up to the people’s vote in 2016, remainers categorically stated there was no plans to create an E.u. Military force. 

 And once the turmoil of Brexit has quieted down, expect many more controversial policies to be implemented by the non voted Bureaucrats in Brussels.

 

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

Many disagree with him, he's entitled to his opinion, doesn't make him right though. We have never been through brexit before, nobody knows.

nobody knows ???? yet NF BJ etc have been telling us for 4 years how much BETTER it will be now your saying its a gamble,a gamble a bankrupt nation should not be taking when its looking very likely another world recession is coming.

8 minutes ago, bomber said:

nobody knows ???? yet NF BJ etc have been telling us for 4 years how much BETTER it will be now your saying its a gamble,a gamble a bankrupt nation should not be taking when its looking very likely another world recession is coming.

Likely smikely, a world recession is coming, many have been telling us how much better it will be, people generally listen to 'experts' who tell them what they want to hear.

Does it bother that the EU turning into something that a lot of us don't want, are you happy with the EU?

 

 

But you don't have to implement an opinion poll

Quote one single person who was calling it an "opinion poll" prior to the vote. You can't. Every politician right up to the PM was calling it a once in a lifetime vote that would be enacted on regardless which way it went. That should mean something. Politicians doing what they promised. You complain when they don't. But yet here you are, when it suits your purposes, egging them on to be deceitful. And what are you going to do if you get a second referendum and you win it? The morning after when you are calling for the will of the people to be respected, are we all supposed to just forget all the nonsense you've been spouting for the last two years about referendums only being opinion polls?

You know I actually respect the viewpoint of believing in the EU and believing Britain is better off in. Don't agree with it but respect it. But what I have zero respect for is the absurd arguments that remainers have sunk to making, what twisted logic they have devised, to try and get their way. You might not see it now, but believe me, if you look back on this thread in a few years time, maybe less, you'll be ashamed on some of the stuff you have come out with. You're simply not being honest with yourself and deep down you know it.





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