BTS Onnut Slowness

[josephbloggs]

Hi,

 

Seeing as we have a few posters with excellent knowledge of the BTS I would like to ask this question:

 

For the last few days the trains running in to town slow down to a crawl between Onnut and Phrakhanong.  They creep along at maybe 5mph between stations at the point where the track takes a slight bend to follow Sukhumvit and go over the khlong, for (I'm guessing) maybe 300-400 metres.  It doesn't do this in the other direction - they stay normal speed.

 

Why?

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by josephbloggs

[madmen]

If its in peak hour then its due to seperation of trains running so frequently

[josephbloggs]

3 minutes ago, madmen said:

If its in peak hour then its due to seperation of trains running so frequently

No, it's not that.  It is at all times of the day (that I have been on it) and always at the same place.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I can't specifically address the location you're asking about.

 

But oddly in parallel, for the last several months until recently, the exact same was happening on the Sukhumvit line, about half way between the Ploenchit and Nana stations, as the trains headed toward Nana station. The trains would suddenly slow just like you said and crawl into the Nana station. Then after that, proceed at normal speeds toward Asoke.

 

At all times of the day. And with no train ahead that the slowing train was having to wait for. Never had done like that any time before in all the years I've been traveling on that line. Began a few month ago, and continued exactly the same until the past several week. Now, back to normal, the trains run at normal speed every time coming into the Nana station.

 

[emptypockets]

Track condition? They do deteriorate.

Electrical loading on the system? It needs maintenance too, maybe a tranny offline for repairs?

I guess it could be for a number of reasons. perhaps any issues have been sorted out and the system is back to normal now.

Ask Crossy he plays with train sets and may be able to give some insight.

Edited July 5, 2019 by emptypockets

[pkspeaker]

8 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I can't specifically address the location you're asking about.

 

But oddly in parallel, for the last several months until recently, the exact same was happening on the Sukhumvit line, about half way between the Ploenchit and Nana stations, as the trains headed toward Nana station. The trains would suddenly slow just like you said and crawl into the Nana station. Then after that, proceed at normal speeds toward Asoke.

 

At all times of the day. And with no train ahead that the slowing train was having to wait for. Never had done like that any time before in all the years I've been traveling on that line. Began a few month ago, and continued exactly the same until the past several week. Now, back to normal, the trains run at normal speed every time coming into the Nana station.

 

the 'slow' train does not have to be directly infront of your train for your train to beslowed, its the entire line, the system tries to space apart the trains so they are not jaming up right infront of the Siam station.. try using the first train at 5.45am and i doubt it will be slowing over that onnut-phrakanong section

[josephbloggs]

2 hours ago, pkspeaker said:

the 'slow' train does not have to be directly infront of your train for your train to beslowed, its the entire line, the system tries to space apart the trains so they are not jaming up right infront of the Siam station.. try using the first train at 5.45am and i doubt it will be slowing over that onnut-phrakanong section

Nah it's not that.  Always exactly the same place, at all times of day, on all trains.  

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, josephbloggs said:

Nah it's not that.  Always exactly the same place, at all times of day, on all trains.  

 

That was my experience also...

 

Also, in terms of congestion on the line, IME, when the train needs to wait for a train ahead, they typically seem to just stop it ahead of the upcoming station and wait.

 

Like Joseph's description, mine was the same, slowing to a crawl and then moving forward at that speed at the same exact point on the line every time, any time of day, day after day, for a couple months....

[Crossy]

There's likely a speed restriction on that section, possibly something has been found during the regular inspection of the track (yes, they do do regular maintenance), rail worn out of tolerance perhaps (quite likely on a curve).

 

Obviously replacing lumps of rail isn't a 5 minute job and needs planning and scheduling for out-of-hours working.

 

The issue will go away one day once the job has been completed.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

43 minutes ago, Crossy said:

rail worn out of tolerance perhaps (quite likely on a curve).

 

Interesting that both the final section heading from Ploenchit into Nana that I mentioned has a slight curve, as does the section Joseph mentioned heading into OnNut from Phrakanong.

 

But, FWIW, in both cases, the slowdowns were only occurring on one side of the track.... at least in my case on the Ploenchit into Nana trip. On the Nana heading to Ploenchit trip, no slowdown at all.

 

Perhaps as you say, it was a track specific issue that they finally remedied.

 

 

[elgenon]

Same thing for train going from Ploenchit to Nana. But not the reverse which makes it weird.

[josephbloggs]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Interesting that both the final section heading from Ploenchit into Nana that I mentioned has a slight curve, as does the section Joseph mentioned heading into OnNut from Phrakanong.

 

But, FWIW, in both cases, the slowdowns were only occurring on one side of the track.... at least in my case on the Ploenchit into Nana trip. On the Nana heading to Ploenchit trip, no slowdown at all.

 

Perhaps as you say, it was a track specific issue that they finally remedied.

 

 

Same, one side of the track only.

[PerkinsCuthbert]

Who cares about a little slowdown? I'm waiting for the day when a driver manages to run the train clear off the tracks. Hell, it's been eighteen years without a derailment on the BTS; SRT is streets ahead with almost one a week.

[Jimdandy]

Another BTS note if I can, I don't understand why BTS continues to use short trains if they can run longer trains at high peak hours. For years they have run 4 cars (carriages) and the platforms can accommodate 6. My point is this. I grew up in Manhattan, in New York. The subway runs 10 cars (the maximum the platform is designed for) and when it is late or off peak hours they would run 8 car and I can remember 6 cars on some lines in the other boroughs.

 

The BTS platforms are designed for 6 cars yet they always pack people into 4, and when they get to their destination, they're stressed and it can all be avoided with two additional cars each way. What's even worse is since they've installed those safety doors in some stations, they do not include the possibility for the 2 additional cars. If it is a coupling issue why would they build 6 car platforms and buy trains that can only couple once in a set of two, making 4 total, what's the logic?

 

You don't have to pay any more labor cost because it's still the same train just longer. What is the insane logic behind this 4 cars all day long? Can anyone shed some light on this madness? BTW Hong Kong runs long trains all day.

 

 

[Almer]

10 hours ago, Crossy said:

There's likely a speed restriction on that section, possibly something has been found during the regular inspection of the track (yes, they do do regular maintenance), rail worn out of tolerance perhaps (quite likely on a curve).

 

Obviously replacing lumps of rail isn't a 5 minute job and needs planning and scheduling for out-of-hours working.

 

The issue will go away one day once the job has been completed.

You wouldn't want jumping the rail would you bad enough on terra fitma  

[Crossy]

6 hours ago, Almer said:

You wouldn't want jumping the rail would you bad enough on terra fitma  

 

indeed, but the BTS, in common with most other metros has de-rail containment. Those concrete structures just outside the running rail (which are convenient for mounting the 3rd rail) are there to prevent a de-railed bogie from running too far off line.

 

[dddave]

On 7/6/2019 at 11:14 AM, josephbloggs said:

Nah it's not that.  Always exactly the same place, at all times of day, on all trains.  

I travel between Phra Khanong and On Nut via BTS 5 or 6 times a week and have never experienced the slow-down you describe except during a rainstorm or as another poster mentioned, rush hour interval spacing.

I may be wrong but I believe the trains used by the BTS are integrated units and that adding additional cars is technically very difficult, not like chains of streetcars or trolleys.  They are putting new trains in service on the Sukhumvit line.  I rode in one just a few days ago that was obviously brand new, had a section with no seats for more standing room and a much clearer and easy to read electronic route map above the doors.

The issue of adding more cars to trains is more complex than many seem to believe.  The passenger platforms at most stations are overloaded as it is, especially when trains from both directions arrive simultaneously.  Siam especially is downright dangerous with overcrowding on the downward escalators. I have long feared a tragedy there someday.  Adding more cars will make the congestion much worse and there is little that can be done to reconfigure the platforms without major construction disruptions.

Nobody anticipated the exponential growth of passenger usage of the BTS.  When I first came to Bangkok, one year after the BTS opened, trains were three cars and one could always get a seat, no matter what stop you boarded. The average Thai would never be able to afford it was the assumption. The economy improved, wages went up, thousands of residential units were built within walking distance and today's overwhelming ridership is the result.

I come from Boston in the US where the subway system is the oldest in the nation and runs at a $100 million deficit with derailments and service outages a weekly event. The stations are dingy and dirty and many, like Bangkok do not provide escalators.  The elevators installed over the last 20 years for handicapped use are more often out of order.  New York City is even worse on a grand scale.

Urban transit systems in highly populated and spread out cities is one of those examples of if you build it, people will come, and the more you build it, the more people come and the more difficult it becomes to provide a high level of service.  Though the BTS is not above criticism and has multiple annoyances (locked elevators!!), I for one believe they do a pretty good job with what they have.  Delays are surprisingly few and train intervals rarely out of sync, unlike Boston and other cities where you never know if the next train will be three or thirty minutes.

[Blue bruce]

I Agree with the op, I come from Chicago in the U.S. During rush hour periods they add more cars to the trains to eleviate congestion. I agree the platforms are made for 6 rail cars, why can't the BTS just add more cars as they do in other cities. It doesn't cost any more to run 6 cars as it does to run 4

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, Blue bruce said:

I Agree with the op, I come from Chicago in the U.S. During rush hour periods they add more cars to the trains to eleviate congestion. I agree the platforms are made for 6 rail cars, why can't the BTS just add more cars as they do in other cities. It doesn't cost any more to run 6 cars as it does to run 4

But it costs a lot to buy them.

[Jimdandy]

2 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

But it costs a lot to buy them.

The current 'rolling stock' is able to manage 2 additional cars. Also check out what Sala Dang station looks like as of yesterday

[Just Weird]

On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 12:14 AM, josephbloggs said:

Seeing as we have a few posters with excellent knowledge of the BTS I would like to ask this question:

 

For the last few days the trains running in to town slow down to a crawl between Onnut and Phrakhanong.  They creep along at maybe 5mph between stations at the point where the track takes a slight bend to follow Sukhumvit and go over the khlong, for (I'm guessing) maybe 300-400 metres.  It doesn't do this in the other direction - they stay normal speed.

 

Why?

I've noticed that too, lately, very odd.

[Just Weird]

On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 12:49 AM, emptypockets said:

Track condition? They do deteriorate.

Electrical loading on the system? It needs maintenance too, maybe a tranny offline for repairs?

I guess it could be for a number of reasons. perhaps any issues have been sorted out and the system is back to normal now.

Ask Crossy he plays with train sets and may be able to give some insight.

"...perhaps any issues have been sorted out and the system is back to normal now".

It wasn't back to normal yesterday at 2.15pm

[Just Weird]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 1:53 PM, dddave said:

I travel between Phra Khanong and On Nut via BTS 5 or 6 times a week and have never experienced the slow-down you describe except during a rainstorm or as another poster mentioned, rush hour interval spacing.

The slow-down is in the other direction, between Onnut and Phra Khanong.  It has been happening daily and was still happening yesterday afternoon.

[Just Weird]

5 hours ago, Blue bruce said:

I Agree with the op, I come from Chicago in the U.S. During rush hour periods they add more cars to the trains to eleviate congestion. I agree the platforms are made for 6 rail cars, why can't the BTS just add more cars as they do in other cities. It doesn't cost any more to run 6 cars as it does to run 4

"It doesn't cost any more to run 6 cars as it does to run 4"

Oh yes, it does, it costs a lot more!  Capital expenditure, depreciation, wear and tear, maintenance, electricity consumption etc. Running nearly empty carriages at some times, as would be the case because, regardless of Thaivisa posters' frequent comments, the BTS is not crammed full at all times, is a waste of money.

[Just Weird]

43 minutes ago, Jimdandy said:

The current 'rolling stock' is able to manage 2 additional cars. Also check out what Sala Dang station looks like as of yesterday

What are we supposed to be checking out?

[bkk6060]

People that complain about the BTS system to me are not experienced travelers, clueless, or just plain complainers.

Ever go to Hong Kong, or Singapore, or Tokyo on their transport systems?

Packed to the brim and many issues greater then the BTS.

I lived in BKK for 2 years took it everyday maybe a handful of times it was slow or delayed.

Never broke down once cars always clean and maybe the best aircon in the city.  But it can after all breakdown, it is a man made machine and S happens.

The alternative I guess is to sit in a hot, smelly, expensive taxi in traffic that will take 10 times longer on Sukhumvit to get someplace.

I like and appreciate the system.  That is just my thinking...

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by bkk6060

[Jimdandy]

3 hours ago, Just Weird said:

"It doesn't cost any more to run 6 cars as it does to run 4"

Oh yes, it does, it costs a lot more!  Capital expenditure, depreciation, wear and tear, maintenance, electricity consumption etc. Running nearly empty carriages at some times, as would be the case because, regardless of Thaivisa posters' frequent comments, the BTS is not crammed full at all times, is a waste of money.

Not a waste if you do it during high peak hours. The escalators don't stay both sides one way all day, only during high peak hours. Why not add the cars during the same hours? During peak times it's the sardine and bacteria iron horse. The system is a point to point, not a loop, so it's easy to get to the end of the line and change cars quickly and efficiently. There's hardly a train with open seating, not just one or two here and there during those hours.

 

If BKK cannot afford to run an efficient system then maybe they should consider a study to figure out how cities that do, have done it successfully for years.

 

There are ways the system can absorb the costs. How much does all that electronic advertising costs? When's the last time the system considered raising the rates for companies to advertise which will generate more revenue to absorb costs. Wear and tear you say?  If the city is buying trains that breakdown every six months maybe I should consider buying a smog mask and ride those old busses that seem beyond repair but still keep right on rolling.

[Jimdandy]

3 hours ago, Just Weird said:

What are we supposed to be checking out?

Safety gates that extend to the end of the platform (6 cars) beyond a 4 car capacity. 

[Jimdandy]

3 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

People that complain about the BTS system to me are not experienced travelers, clueless, or just plain complainers.

Ever go to Hong Kong, or Singapore, or Tokyo on their transport systems?

Yes I have. BKK is a yet of those places. The Sukhumvit Line is being extended beyond Mochit-Great! but that's not enough. One issue is poor urban planning. When the system was build there was no realistic urban planning in terms of growth in density of population considered. Have you noticed how almost every hole in the ground along the various train lines there is a super structure going up, but now talk about traffic density solutions? BKK is a yet.

[Jimdandy]

BTW about 10 years ago this conversation would have been a moot point. And you mean to tell me planners did not see this coming!!!???