On 1/21/2020 at 3:06 PM, papa al said:

Right.  Alcohol + carboxylic acid <==> ester + water.

Esters are group 5 lubricants.

Very stable at high temps, but

they are hydroscopic [hyrophylic], = water attractive

 and break down into their constituent acid/alcohol

in the presence of HOH.

Needed for turbines, but require frequent changing.

Best in 2T applications too.

The best oil for most engines is group 4, PAO [polyesterolifins].

Great lube properties and super stable.

Amsoil for example.  Double the reco drain interval in motorcycles.

In America some 18-wheelers never change the oil,

just use bypass filtration w/ Amsoil.

Any correct viscosity is oil fine in scooter,

but Honda brand is prolly the poorest.

Even car oil would be fine.

["Dino"  No.

Petroleum is not derived from ancient life forms.

It forms in the earth's mantel.]

;-(

Esters are hygroscopic AND hydrophilic? News to me. Hygroscopic means the ester will actually absorb water. Hydrophilic means it will then combine with the water to form an azeotrope. Both are very unlikely.

While it is true HOH ( water ) will hydrolyse esters, that only happens when heat and inorganic acids or alkalis are also present. Takes a lot to break down an ester.

Next time you want to discuss chemistry, PM me first.

 

 

42 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Esters are hygroscopic AND hydrophilic? News to me. Hygroscopic means the ester will actually absorb water. Hydrophilic means it will then combine with the water to form an azeotrope. Both are very unlikely.

While it is true HOH ( water ) will hydrolyse esters, that only happens when heat and inorganic acids or alkalis are also present. Takes a lot to break down an ester.

Next time you want to discuss chemistry, PM me first.

 

 

/Wiki:

A hydrophile is a molecule or other molecular entity that is attracted to water molecules 

A hygroscopic substance is one that readily attracts water from its surroundings, through either absorption or adsorption.

 

Synonyms to papa's simple mind.

12 hours ago, jackdd said:

Four types, you forgot 100% synthetic.

 

There may be more . Mineral , Semi Synthetic , Hydro-cracked/Molecular cracked ? ( Castrol lMagnatec ) , Fully Synthetic , FS Double Ester ( Motul 300V Factory) and 100% FS. Clever stuff oil. The Shell Advance Ultra i use in Thailand  , and called FS , is really 100%. My error. Its 360 Baht/L. I use Motul 300V in England due to its double quantity of long chain ester molecules. In Thailand this is 950 Baht/L. I get it for 1100 Baht  (£55 / 4L) in England. As an oil change on a simple scooter is done once per year , id spend a little bit more on FS.

Use amsoil - regardless of what people say, it's the best oil for cats, motorcycles,  trucks, tractors,  or anything.  Full synthetic will keep the engine running better and you'll have less service issues with the engine.  I had a 1987 Ford Taurus and the engine still ran like new 25 years after it was bought. I left the usa and heard the new owner put in cheap oil and she stopped running.  So,  it's your vehicle,  take good care of her. 

https://shopee.co.th/Amsoil-Performance-4T-10W40-สังเคราะห์แท้-100--i.60542230.982908412?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqaaW4L2X5wIVRBSPCh1MMgk8EAQYASABEgLeRfD_BwE

 

On 1/20/2020 at 7:22 PM, piston broke said:

got chatting to 2 blokes in a bar a few nights back and got 2 completely different opinions and came away more confused that when i went in....

What were you drinking and how many did you have?

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

What were you drinking and how many did you have?

Judging from some of the posts on this thread they were well oiled.

 

Fully synthetic is best, unless one is referring to Ladyboys!

10 hours ago, papa al said:

/Wiki:

A hydrophile is a molecule or other molecular entity that is attracted to water molecules 

A hygroscopic substance is one that readily attracts water from its surroundings, through either absorption or adsorption.

 

Synonyms to papa's simple mind.

Ah, but that's the difference. I don't need to consult Wikipedia for the correct spelling or meaning of those terms, because I've had the scientific training many years ago.

If anything, an ester is hydrophobic. Try mixing tallow with water, and see what you get.

11 hours ago, DubleA said:

Use amsoil - regardless of what people say, it's the best oil for cats, motorcycles,  trucks, tractors,  or anything.  Full synthetic will keep the engine running better and you'll have less service issues with the engine.  I had a 1987 Ford Taurus and the engine still ran like new 25 years after it was bought. I left the usa and heard the new owner put in cheap oil and she stopped running.  So,  it's your vehicle,  take good care of her. 

https://shopee.co.th/Amsoil-Performance-4T-10W40-สังเคราะห์แท้-100--i.60542230.982908412?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqaaW4L2X5wIVRBSPCh1MMgk8EAQYASABEgLeRfD_BwE

 

So based on a sample size of 1 with multiple unknown factors we should all use Amsoil?

 

Amsoil is very good oil and I use it on my motocross bikes. I use fully synthetic on my Ducati (Shell Advance Ultra 100% Synthetic).

 

But on a simple scooter there is no need. It's not revving to the moon, it's not a high power, high compression engine. By all means spend (waste) money on fancy synthetic oil if it makes you feel better but regular changes using Honda approved mineral oil will mean the engine outlasts most other parts on the bike. Otherwise Honda wouldn't approve it.

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Ah, but that's the difference. I don't need to consult Wikipedia for the correct spelling or meaning of those terms, because I've had the scientific training many years ago.

If anything, an ester is hydrophobic. Try mixing tallow with water, and see what you get.

Then you know that tallow is primarily made up of triglycerides.

Hydrophobic, true.  But triglycerides are not esters.

Unclear why you are conflating the two.

papa has a few degrees/certifications is science & tech as well, so what?.

Referencing yourself as an expert to argue a point lacks validity.

Ad hominum. 

Logic 101.

????

 

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Ah, but that's the difference. I don't need to consult Wikipedia for the correct spelling or meaning of those terms, because I've had the scientific training many years ago.

If anything, an ester is hydrophobic. Try mixing tallow with water, and see what you get.

Steak and kidney pudding.........????

On 1/20/2020 at 7:22 PM, piston broke said:

Do i go for the normal Honda oil - or do i go for synthetic - and why ?

 

Honda oil is what Honda want you to use so if you don't know about oils and don't service your own bikes use it.

How much more it cost. ?

 

Never mind the guys in the bar your get even more confused asking here. ????

 

 

 

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

So based on a sample size of 1 with multiple unknown factors we should all use Amsoil?

Huh ?

Thats goofy.

Why would you suggest that ?

That's akin to saying everyone should ride a Ducati.

A Ducati engine ridden on the street in normal service using mineral oil , will likely outlast other components too.

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Amsoil is very good oil and I use it on my motocross bikes.

Not goofy.

On 1/20/2020 at 7:22 PM, piston broke said:

got chatting to 2 blokes in a bar a few nights back and got 2 completely different opinions and came away more confused that when i went in....

Whale oil beef hooked. As the Irish say.

5 hours ago, papa al said:

Then you know that tallow is primarily made up of triglycerides.

Hydrophobic, true.  But triglycerides are not esters.

Unclear why you are conflating the two.

papa has a few degrees/certifications is science & tech as well, so what?.

Referencing yourself as an expert to argue a point lacks validity.

Ad hominum. 

Logic 101.

????

 

 

Ah - the 3 Degees - i wondered where they'd got too .....

.

5 hours ago, papa al said:

Then you know that tallow is primarily made up of triglycerides.

Hydrophobic, true.  But triglycerides are not esters.

Unclear why you are conflating the two.

papa has a few degrees/certifications is science & tech as well, so what?.

Referencing yourself as an expert to argue a point lacks validity.

Ad hominum. 

Logic 101.

????

 

In that case, you had better demand your money back from whoever gave you your degrees/ certification.

A triglyceride is an ester of glycerol ( CH2OH-CHOH-CH2OH ) and three fatty acid molecules, e.g. Glyceryl tristearate.

I can accept you don't want to acknowledge me as an expert. So post a reference that states a triglyceride is not an ester. Better yet, post a reference that identifies esters of the chain length we are talking about as hygroscopic and hydrophilic.

BTW, the correct spelling is ad hominem. Your multiple spelling mistakes of technical terms leads me to believe your claim to a scientific education is either BS, or you were far from top of the class.

My advice is when you are in a hole, it's best to stop digging.

Addendum to post 45.

 

Argument ad hominem is an attack on the person, in preference to  the facts or data they are presenting.

 

papa al is saying referencing myself as an expert is argument ad hominem. Actually, it is argument ad verecundiam, i.e. an appeal to authority. I'll let other readers of this thread decide which of us is correct.

OP I went through this a couple of weeks ago in choosing what oil to use, forget about all the arguments, here are your options, choose one:

 

1- Semi-synthetic oil is so cheap why bother with mineral oil, choose either Honda's own called "Gold", or Shell AX7 for Scooters, about 115b to 125b a bottle of 0.8l.

 

2- Or buy Shell Advance Ultra Scooter 5w40 100% Synthetic MB, about 300b a bottle of 1l.

 

Can get any of these, even Honda one, from Supercheap shops or online from Lazada.co.th, just make sure it says it is for "Scooters" and says JASO MB. Take it to Honda or any mechanic to change it 80b.

 

Either of these will run your bike forever, I mean really forever...!

 

 

1 hour ago, Agusts said:

Either of these will run your bike forever, I mean really forever...!

 

Haha

Forever is a loooong time.

papa would settle for 150 years/ 1,610,000 km

 

My big bike specs call for dinosaur oil.  Can I safely use a synthetic oil?

 

 

My scooter just says "OIL:  Yes."

 

8 hours ago, papa al said:

Haha

Forever is a loooong time.

papa would settle for 150 years/ 1,610,000 km

 

Our Honda PCX is now near 11 years old, I never touch the thing, Mrs.Trans has the oil changed when she thinks about it, which is near never.

It obviously has the cheapest oil cos that's how she thinks, but it still goes like a Honda Dream..????

One of papa's fav bikes is 1985 Yamaha TY350.

So 35 years young; still runs like a beast.

????

 

my slant - after the initial running in period, i always go synthetic.....  appart from 2 engines seizing and a blown up gear box - never had an ounce of trouble ....

3 minutes ago, properperson said:

 

my slant - after the initial running in period, i always go synthetic.....  appart from 2 engines seizing and a blown up gear box - never had an ounce of trouble ....

crikey, i'm draining my sump now and running 'dry'. may have more luck than you.

On 1/23/2020 at 11:17 PM, Agusts said:

1- Semi-synthetic oil is so cheap why bother with mineral oil, choose either Honda's own called "Gold", or Shell AX7 for Scooters, about 115b to 125b a bottle of 0.8l.

"PTT challenger 10w-40" semi-synthetic oil is even cheaper than that. I pay 93THB for a bottle of "MA" type oil, i guess the "MB" type which is required for a scooter costs about the same.

lubricants-03-00054.pdf

 

Attached is a doc that some may find interesting. Section 3 shows the conclusions.

On 1/28/2020 at 4:20 AM, Farangwithaplan said:

lubricants-03-00054.pdf 328.63 kB · 13 downloads

 

Attached is a doc that some may find interesting. Section 3 shows the conclusions.

Wow , that was heavy reading.  So the up-shot is , fully synthetic oils are more thermally stable then semi synthetic , but both types of oils depend on their base stock oils and additives to remain stable over the long term..

9 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

Wow , that was heavy reading.  So the up-shot is , fully synthetic oils are more thermally stable then semi synthetic , but both types of oils depend on their base stock oils and additives to remain stable over the long term..

Ktm thank you for that . I got all the way through the endless pages  and was still confused by the end thank for deciphering.